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What would the tier list look like if traits were removed?

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Hawkgirl, GA and Ares without trait aren't even really characters anymore.

Also Aquaman goes down a LOT more without his trait. It single handedly wins him a lot of MUs.

Lex would be hurt a lot, but could still function decently thanks to probes. He'd still be pretty bad without armor though.


All in all though, I agree with most of your conclusions about how much/little this would affect each character, but I completely disagree with the list. For example a no-trait AM is way worse than a no trait Raven/Shazam/Harley/BA/Grundy/etc.

Speaking of Grundy, he still has his resets and walking corpse cancels, so as huge of a hit as a trait loss would be, he wouldn't be completely worthless.

Also if we remove traits completely, Joker is better than every character in F and D tiers except maybe Raven.
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
Bane, Ares, and Arrow all get hit super hard. I don't know what Bane or Arrow even do any more and Ares no longer has a midscreen launcher that's faster than 14 frames.

Batgirl, KF, Joker, and Cyborg all move up just because they don't rely much on their trait in the first place.

Grundy becomes way less intimidating. Lots of characters take hits but have their core game left intact(Superman, Wonderwoman, BA, Raven)

Fun thread
 

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
I wish this would happen -____- All this YOLOing to be brought crashing down sounds like a blast :D Imo if they cut down the damage of WW and superman with this as well a bit, it wouldn't be that bad at all. For the speculation of "getting shit on" by zoning characters like you have for a few, I disagree. Just because you can't YOLO anymore doesn't mean your character would then suck, It simply means use the damn head that you have and actually think
 

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
Picture this, The characters that pretty much use trait as their move set like the likes of GA and Ares, should have them turned into specials, BUT here's the catch. As it should be with everyone(imo), ALL specials should be punishable on block (BY EVERYONE) when up close. Each character would get their properties adjusted if they don't already have this, where at least one of their specials, but no more than 2, is invincible on wake up, AND these are either lows or overheads. That way you actually would have to make reads and think for once rather than have these floods of safe wake ups/specials that just make absolutely no sense at all. Specials with armor should require meter. Free armor is typical braindead NRS in a nutshell. Specials could be safe on whiff if that's really on must, but seriously advancing/mid hitting/short range specials that are advantage on block is just dumb. Advantage or being safe should only be there if you had to have spent meter

Completely unbiased, but Harley should be just about the only one granted the advantage she has off of MB cupcakes. Goodbye MB orbs by the martian and MB batarangs allowing for free, safe pressure. Harley's only works from afar and isn't even granted pressure after let alone a combo other than a 3% gunshot, but a safe dash if she needs to close the space, which she still would only be able to get in like a d1 as a check if even that. Unless it's cancelling, nothing on block should be more than +10 or so unless it's a high hitting special, but +15 should be as far as that would go. Do you need to look up a YouTube combo vid while you're at it with your +30 at point blank range?

Semi rant, but being realistic. eh...
 
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Fromundaman

I write too much.
Picture this, The characters that pretty much use trait as their move set like the likes of GA and Ares, should have them turned into specials, BUT here's the catch. As it should be with everyone(imo), ALL specials should be punishable on block (BY EVERYONE) when up close. Each character would get their properties adjusted if they don't already have this, where at least one of their specials, but no more than 2, is invincible on wake up, AND these are either lows or overheads. That way you actually would have to make reads and think for once rather than have these floods of safe wake ups/specials that just make absolutely no sense at all. Specials with armor should require meter. Free armor is typical braindead NRS in a nutshell. Specials could be safe on whiff if that's really on must, but seriously advancing/mid hitting/short range specials that are advantage on block is just dumb. Advantage or being safe should only be there if you had to have spent meter

Completely unbiased, but Harley should be just about the only one granted the advantage she has off of MB cupcakes. Goodbye MB orbs by the martian and MB batarangs allowing for free, safe pressure. Harley's only works from afar and isn't even granted pressure after let alone a combo other than a 3% gunshot, but a safe dash if she needs to close the space, which she still would only be able to get in like a d1 as a check if even that. Unless it's cancelling, nothing on block should be more than +10 or so unless it's a high hitting special, but +15 should be as far as that would go. Do you need to look up a YouTube combo vid while you're at it with your +30 at point blank range?

Semi rant, but being realistic. eh...
Wow... You might as well take Joker, Martian, Grundy, GL, Doomsday, HG, Cyborg and Bane out of the game then. It would be less cruel than making all of their specials punishable on block.

You know who this wouldn't really affect at all though? That's right: Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Batman and Batgirl!
On the plus side, Deathstroke would be really good again. Raven would be ridiculous too.

If your goal was to destroy a little under 1/3 of the cast and make a few top tiers that dominate the game, then that idea is great!
 

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
Wow... You might as well take Joker, Martian, Grundy, GL, Doomsday, HG, Cyborg and Bane out of the game then. It would be less cruel than making all of their specials punishable on block.

You know who this wouldn't really affect at all though? That's right: Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Batman and Batgirl!
On the plus side, Deathstroke would be really good again. Raven would be ridiculous too.

If your goal was to destroy a little under 1/3 of the cast and make a few top tiers that dominate the game, then that idea is great!
Apparently reading the plain text is too much to comprehend. So because you no longer can just abuse your nonsense that does the work for you, it's now bad to use your brain? Realize I said everyone, and I also mentioned above to cut down damage for the likes of WW and Superman to even the odds as well. Hm, BG not being able to YOLO wakeup(which she can't anyways. block right and it's full combo punishable), BA having to pay for lightning cage wake ups while he continues to run away using specials that track you, or Batman no longer having massive advantage on block and has to now think; this is all bad? Apparently this community seems to thrive on go to safe options, and if a character doesn't have these in spades, but are STILL more than viable if you have any actual skill, they now suck.
 

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
Joker and Shazam would be top 15.

NW will still stay where he is(20-25). Most of NW's work starts from Escrima.

What would kill him is that he doesn't have a low starter in Escrima and his D1 in Escrima is 9 frames, his D2 is 12 frames. Most of his normals in Escrima are slow (standing 1 is 6 frames, but the rest are 12-15) But Staff is hella good, just Escrima shouldnt go under the radar.

Characters who suffer greatly
Lex
Bane
Green Arrow (probably bottom 3 w/o trait)
Hawkgirl
Zod
Doomsday
Batman
Sinestro
Ares
 

JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
If Grundy lost the actual throws then I would agree he would be complete shite. But if he kept them but just lost the buffs he'd still be good. The loss of chip trait would severely hurt some match ups though.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Apparently reading the plain text is too much to comprehend. So because you no longer can just abuse your nonsense that does the work for you, it's now bad to use your brain? Realize I said everyone, and I also mentioned above to cut down damage for the likes of WW and Superman to even the odds as well. Hm, BG not being able to YOLO wakeup(which she can't anyways. block right and it's full combo punishable), BA having to pay for lightning cage wake ups while he continues to run away using specials that track you, or Batman no longer having massive advantage on block and has to now think; this is all bad? Apparently this community seems to thrive on go to safe options, and if a character doesn't have these in spades, but are STILL more than viable if you have any actual skill, they now suck.
For someone claiming I can't read, you sure misread the entire point of my post. No the changes to Batman and BA wouldn't be bad. As I said, they would actually stay ridiculous because they have safe blockstrings.

However, some characters use their specials to make themselves safe. Take Green Lantern for example. With that in play he has literally no safe strings (Well, no useful ones. IDK if some of the ones nobody uses might be safe).
Doomsday is another example. With these changes you might as well remove his venom charge from the game if it's going to be negative on block. With that in play Doomsday now has very few options to get close to his opponent (Yeah he has trait, but multihit moves blow that up so hard, as well as a lot of characters with fast D1s) and venom charge as a move no longer has any point.

Oh and speaking of big characters with armor... How do you want this system to work for Bane? Every time he uses his trait it costs a bar of meter? All of his moves are now unsafe on block? What is the point in his existence then?

Oh and armor costs meter? Congrats, Grundy lost all of his reset potential. He doesn't build enough bar to compensate for all walking corpses costing meter.

I could keep going, but the point is that your idea would nerf the hell out of some characters (Mostly the mid tiers) while barely touching others (most of which are already amongst the better characters in the game).



By the way, I am a Joker player, so you know, I'm already playing a character considered to be garbage. Your idea would make characters like Bane and Grundy 1000 times worse than what Joker currently is.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
Bottom tier would undoubtedly be Lex, Bane, GA, Hawkgirl and Grundy. All rely on trait to win.

Aquaman would have zero offense without trait...he needs to be lower on the list.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
i like this thread, interesting talking point.

scorpion would take a big ass hit with no trait alright, no 11~trait, b1~trait, restands on juggles or even the fun had with killing someone with the flames ghetto BA style. bad times.
ares would get it waaaay worse though, no low sword or straight axe? id drop that character quick, fast and in a hurry if that happened.
 

True Grave

Giving The Gift Of Graves
Lets not forget that Aquaman wins with D1~Trident Rush. Him losing trait has no factor if your playing the MU properly without having to rely on risky mistakes. Just don't get caught and you won't need to trait, but Batgirl is #1 in this teir because trait only affects physical damage vs chip damage.
 
lol, I actually forget he has a trait every now and then. In regards to my characters, grundy would go from being average to being pretty darn bad while WW really wouldn't lose anything. If she lost her trait and was stuck in sword stance, then she'd drop.
 

Akromaniac27

Ready to lose your head?
For someone claiming I can't read, you sure misread the entire point of my post. No the changes to Batman and BA wouldn't be bad. As I said, they would actually stay ridiculous because they have safe blockstrings.

However, some characters use their specials to make themselves safe. Take Green Lantern for example. With that in play he has literally no safe strings (Well, no useful ones. IDK if some of the ones nobody uses might be safe).
Doomsday is another example. With these changes you might as well remove his venom charge from the game if it's going to be negative on block. With that in play Doomsday now has very few options to get close to his opponent (Yeah he has trait, but multihit moves blow that up so hard, as well as a lot of characters with fast D1s) and venom charge as a move no longer has any point.

Oh and speaking of big characters with armor... How do you want this system to work for Bane? Every time he uses his trait it costs a bar of meter? All of his moves are now unsafe on block? What is the point in his existence then?

Oh and armor costs meter? Congrats, Grundy lost all of his reset potential. He doesn't build enough bar to compensate for all walking corpses costing meter.

I could keep going, but the point is that your idea would nerf the hell out of some characters (Mostly the mid tiers) while barely touching others (most of which are already amongst the better characters in the game).



By the way, I am a Joker player, so you know, I'm already playing a character considered to be garbage. Your idea would make characters like Bane and Grundy 1000 times worse than what Joker currently is.
Here we go....

To start, Joker isn't garbage when you have the resets that he is capable of and the corner game he has when he touches you. He isn't the strongest zoner but he can keep majority out, not like MMH or AM, but he can hold his own; and there's pushblock. He is reminiscent of Cyrax in that sense where once they touch you, it makes up for the damage they've been missing out on and eventually even more.

As for specials as a whole, I'll repeat, I said up close and I said meterless. Moves already like flying uppercut, corps charge, lasso spin and things of the sort. Doesn't need to be -15 to be deemed punishable/unsafe; several -7 moves on block that DO get punished if the player knows the MU. Silly moves like ice breath, lightning cage, mace charge, black ice, etc. that have so much pushback AND/or are safe if not advantage is again, obnoxious. If it's going to have that much pushback, (purely my thought here) it should be where you wouldn't get punished but you can't backdash out from fast follow ups.

When it comes to armor, tbh I'm just gonna say tough. There shouldn't be a go to free armor setup that can't be dealt with by pretty much everyone. Sounds like a braindead point of view to say meterless armor is a must -____- Really now, all this does is make you think twice before just moving in not giving a care in the world simply because you can, but instead makes you lay out your play and adapt to different scenarios. Speaking of which, if interactibles are such a must so you feel good enough to say it's something 'new' (which it isn't), they should be blockable for 5% chip. Is that fair enough or is that going too far for currently unblockable, tracking damage?

Doomsday's venom charge ***meterless*** already is unsafe the way it should be. You gain advantage spending meter, as it should be, which is exactly what I said, now it being two times. And to wind back to Bane and Grundy, you still have your grabs, Grundy still has a huge damage output, they could buff Bane's damage a bit if he'd no longer have trait, but they can still set you up. Like Aquaman, you'd now only have to pay for your mistakes now. My sincerest apologies that owning up to these mistakes is such a bad thing -__- And I'll repeat it AGAIN, characters that rely on trait as their move set like GA and Ares should just have these specific moves turned to specials. They can buff the speed and change the properties to being lows and overheads so you'd have a good mix up game if you make the right reads.

The point is, think before you leap. Don't expect there to be a soft landing all the time. That's what this is all about