Question What does this character need?

[Enenra]

I'm going to do my in depth analysis of Sub Zero.

Strengths:
D4
Corner pressure
Keeping life lead

Weaknesses:
Shitty Damage
2 whiffs on low hitbox characters (which are very popular)
Slow
Zoning

Sub Zero gets zoned way too hard. He is so slow, slide isnt really a slide at all, and ice ball has ass start up. His damage is too low to compensate for the few times he gets in to matter. 2 not hitting low hitbox characters is obviously a mistake. Sub's corner pressure is lessened due to everyone having an armored fart. Really, all he has is his phenomenal D4. m2dave says zoning is Sub's weakness, and that should stay, but come on it's the reason he is so awful is he cant fight zoners at all!

I personally believe that for Sub Zero to be a heavy hitter, tournament taking character again he needs:
-2 to hit neutral crouch/crouch blocking opponents
-Damage scaling taken off of freeze
-Slide to be a high crush OR better start up/recovery on ice ball depending if NRS wants Sub Zero to be an offensive or defensive character
-EN Ice clone to eat armor
-A regular hitbox so he can't be jailed

I want to see Sub Zero taking tournaments again. The only reason he is so poor is NRS updated the game but forgot to update the arguably second most popular character in the most popular fighting game of this year and last. I really want NRS to give Sub Zero his power back, because right now he is naked and missing an arm fighting Kabals and Kung Laos.

I'll continue to use him out of character loyalty, but Sub Zero could use some help. According to the vast majority of the community, Sub Zero has no tech left. He is pretty much complete. And while characters like Jax were shot from Shit tier to S tier, Sub zero has done the opposite. He needs to receive some last minute loving so he can give some beatdowns out to atone for all these months.

 

[M_TRICKZz]

Ok here's what I really want which is not asking for alot or breaking the character in any way at all:

-Ice Puddle made way faster or last longer: I mean its not an OTG and it you can't even link it after any attack at all and the reset has been taken out which basically turned puddle into shit, the recovery is so slow that you can actually see it come out and jump right after since it doesn't become active as soon as it makes contact with the ground. It also doesn't even last long for people to get hit if they jump over it and land into it -_-. You can't even jump into the regular version which I find weird. The Clone also disappears whenever you do the puddle which makes no sense at all since is not in anyway OP, let me expain. Even if the clone didn't disappear it wouldn't be hard to dodge at all because say he puts a clone next to you then does Ex puddle, all you have to do is NJ and he'll miss and the clone will disappear which is shit -__-. So why add all these Nerfs to puddle and no buffs? Is it because you can actually do a infinite which is hard as hell to do anyways? I bet my last dollar that if people ever figured out how to make the infinite land 100% of the time the move would be patched and the move would be way more shitty! So why?

I believe making it faster would help a million.

Un-techable normal attack: If 21 was an un-techable knockdown it would help sub alot because unlike jax his puddle is an unblockable projectile that only hits in one single area and with his attacks all being techable he has no real 50/50 off of a knockdown. So having more Un-techable knockdowns would help out alot with his ice puddle mind games.

Cancellable Ice puddle: This would really help out alot! Since people since ice puddle coming and proceed to jump towards Sub which I repeat is no risk to them at all since ice puddle is probably the easiest projectile to punish in mk, all you have to do is jump . So with people not having any risk at all for jumping it kind of sucks alot! So if they did have this risk of getting AA'd people would think about jumping as it is a risk and with that might cause people to actually fall for an ice puddle.

21 hit all hitbox's: I don't understand why this moves doesn't, its like telling sup he's not allowed to hit mileena or any other low hitbox character without jumping at all which is really unfair . So fix it damnit -__-.

All I gotta say! too much xD

 

[Dark_Rob]

Are they only potentially fixing resets now then?

I feel pretty trolled by NRS, to be completely honest. When I started playing Sub-Zero he was a very viable character, and they've just gradually made him worse and worse. If I could have all that time back, I'd have just picked up somebody like kitana when the game was new.

The resets, possibly the random advantage bugs. But they are done with Subzero for sure. We can scream all we want, its just gonna fall on deaf ears.

 

[Gilbagz]

Hey what are your guys thoughts on this buff
Its nothing major, but nonetheless it would help his pressure a TINY bit
We all pressure with 2,1 whenever we actually are able to hit a 2,1 without being poked out
And most people come to expect that after it a d+4 is coming or the last 2 comes into clone
Most people don't even need to respect the option of 2 or 4 because not major damage (what is it like 10% max?)
Lets say you read they are going to take the last 2, so you take the risk and throw out a freeze
Currently that damn freeze won't hit midscreen cuz the last 2 doesnt pick them up high enough for it to hit (im not completely sure about this. but i think this is true)
I was thinking have the 2 hit them higher so you could at least get a 20% combo for risking a full combo punish off the ice ball
I rekon this would at least make them respect the option of the 2, ice ball finish
Because right now, the opponent doesn't need to respect the option of the 2 or 4
You can at most link in the slide or waste meter for the ex freeze to combo
More than likely, people will just take the 6 or 10% damage
After that Sub needs to get through a wave of zoning, just to get back in
Like people say, Sub's pressure is parlor trick in its current state
When you guess right, they take 10% at most
You get more from chip, but people have no reason to take the damn chip cuz they can just take the final hit and zone lol
Sub has to take crazy risks for minimal reward
If he could hit the ice ball off a stand alone (2,1),2 ; he could at least like maybe a 20% combo
That should at least make them respect them option because right now, 6% is nothing to fear
They can try interrupt after every 2,1 because at most they'll take 10%

I realise you can take the 2 into slide, but still whats that? 15%?
You're still risking a combo punish for jack shit lol.
You could cut it short, block the poke or interrupt and recommence your pressure i guess. But there is proper pressure to recommence cuz they know after every 2,1, you are more than likely to throw out a d+4 or another 2,1. If they guess wrong and take the 2, so what?

Anyways main thing is, what do you guys thinking about having his final 2 from 2,1,2 pick up the opponent slightly more so the ice blast could it. It doesn't do wonders for his pressure, but it would at least give him a more damaging option for when he checks the opponent with the final 2.

I know Sub has major issues, and that this doesn't take into account characters with low hit boxes. But this was just a thought I had a few days ago. Sub will never be top tier again, and its stupid to cry for buffs; but I was just wondering your guys opinion on this.

 

[Bidu]

I think something should be done about the last hit of 212. As of now, its so goddamn slow that you can do all sorts of things to punish it. Every parry except for Liu Kang's can beat it, Kung Laos' spin can beat it, and any move that has armour on startup can beat it. More than half the cast can use some kind of ex move and combo off it, its complete garbage. Especially since the 212 sting is one of Sub's main pressure strings, how the hell am i supposed to pop off that ice clone at the end of the string if im getting parried out of it?

There's just not much reason (correct me if I'm wrong) to use that string if your opponent is blocking. Only if they are at the corner, but to be honest that's the string that I use less at midscreen unless I'm combo'ing someone. Good players won't be wasting meter after meter for it, unless it's killing you.

 

[Bidu]

21 hit all opponents and Slide under all projectiles. Or 1 hit of armor on EX freeze. This would help his bad MUs and hes got at least 10 of them.

Like someone said earlier about freeze not scaling as much. That would be good if he got his old damage back.

If he get all this he would instantly become top10. But this also would make him EXTREMELY overpower against a few match ups like Reptile.

That would be a start but it isn't enough on its own, not against people who know how to play against Sub-Zero.

Bidu it's not so much a case of me being protective of this character anymore. Sub-Zero and Jade absolutely need to be brought up to date in this game. Glue and I both complain about this mess all the time. If nothing changes, I already have alternate characters and I am learning Kitana as a main so it won't stop me playing the game. I will move on to another character, all I am saying is that if things don't change for Sub, he won't really be competitive ever again, only in a niche role against certain members of the cast. Buff Sub, Jade, Baraka, Noob etc. I am all for it.

I understand. And totally agree. This game has lot, I mean LOT of issues, like for instance the characters that you've said (But Noob? Really?).

Hey Panque! Nice Jax, bro. It's your new main? lol!

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

lol, another one of these threads. I agree he needs stuff... but I'm not gonna stop playing him b/c he's low tier.

 

[salvificblood]

If he get all this he would instantly become top10. But this also would make him EXTREMELY overpower against a few match ups like Reptile.

I understand. And totally agree. This game has lot, I mean LOT of issues, like for instance the characters that you've said (But Noob? Really?).

Hey Panque! Nice Jax, bro. It's your new main? lol!

Noob isn't very good, lol. He's OK but he's a pretty underwhelming character, too.

As for Reptile, that matchup would become a little bit better (as every matchup against low hitboxes would become a little bit better) but it wouldn't be thatbad for Rep. The most you're ever getting off a freeze, unless it's ex and I save my ex freeze for when he tries to super gigantic forceball in the corner to run my clone timer down, is a slide or a throw, realistically.

Sub should hit like a tank for all his mobility issues. If he shouldn't, then askyourself why Sonya (who has probably the best standing projectile in the game), gets a free ms off any d4, can pick you up off the ground for techrolling on wakeup with d4, ms, full combo, can instant air divekick after all of Sub's pokes and blow him up for trying to pressure (even off a d4 if it's close to max range when you land it), ia divekick leads tofullcombo and all her combos end in a reset and she has far better damage output than Sub-Zero to boot. Or, why can Kitana have a whiff punish that goes across the entire screen and leads to 40% while being able to d1 everything which not only cuts off your opponent's offense but can lead to her own pressure, all of which is completely safe because it can be ended in cutter and a landed cutter grants a safe jump. Lmao, she can even punish most characters for trying to punish a blocked d1 with b12. She has better rushdown than Sub, Baraka, etc, and she has some of the best zoning and mobility in the game. So why can she do 48% meterless off a jip and can AA you for over 30% or over 20% unbreakable damage. Lmao!

What does Sub have compared to these characters? oh yeah, ice clone and 25%. What does jade have? Maybe if she hits you 18 times in a combo she'll get past 25% damage. It isn't balanced at all, man.

 

[M2Dave]

If he get all this he would instantly become top10. But this also would make him EXTREMELY overpower against a few match ups like Reptile.

I think armor on icebeam would destroy Noob because he would not even be able to toss any shadows full screen away when Sub Zero has one bar of super meter.

I do like some of these other changes, though. 2,1 should definitely hit all block-crouching characters. I would also give him back his old reset, and allow him to slide again after EX slide. These three changes alone would make him high mid tier.

 

[salvificblood]

I think armor on icebeam would destroy Noob because he would not even be able to toss any shadows full screen away when Sub Zero has one bar of super meter.

I do like some of these other changes, though. 2,1 should definitely hit all block-crouching characters. I would also give him back his old reset, and allow him to slide again after EX slide. These three changes alone would make him high mid tier.

If he could slide again after ex slide, that would make the armour he got on ex slide useful, and I would stop asking for other slide related fixes/buffs.

 

[Bidu]

Noob isn't very good, lol. He's OK but he's a pretty underwhelming character, too.

As for Reptile, that matchup would become a little bit better (as every matchup against low hitboxes would become a little bit better) but it wouldn't be thatbad for Rep. The most you're ever getting off a freeze, unless it's ex and I save my ex freeze for when he tries to super gigantic forceball in the corner to run my clone timer down, is a slide or a throw, realistically.

Sub should hit like a tank for all his mobility issues. If he shouldn't, then askyourself why Sonya (who has probably the best standing projectile in the game), gets a free ms off any d4, can pick you up off the ground for techrolling on wakeup with d4, ms, full combo, can instant air divekick after all of Sub's pokes and blow him up for trying to pressure (even off a d4 if it's close to max range when you land it), ia divekick leads tofullcombo and all her combos end in a reset and she has far better damage output than Sub-Zero to boot. Or, why can Kitana have a whiff punish that goes across the entire screen and leads to 40% while being able to d1 everything which not only cuts off your opponent's offense but can lead to her own pressure, all of which is completely safe because it can be ended in cutter and a landed cutter grants a safe jump. Lmao, she can even punish most characters for trying to punish a blocked d1 with b12. She has better rushdown than Sub, Baraka, etc, and she has some of the best zoning and mobility in the game. So why can she do 48% meterless off a jip and can AA you for over 30% or over 20% unbreakable damage. Lmao!

What does Sub have compared to these characters? oh yeah, ice clone and 25%. What does jade have? Maybe if she hits you 18 times in a combo she'll get past 25% damage. It isn't balanced at all, man.

Wouldn't be that bad for Reptile? Imagine Sub hiting low hit box characters and going under all medium projectiles (like Reptile's ball forces). He would be so helpless, man.

About the rest you said I totally agree. This game IS fucked up. I've been saying for a few days now. lol Far, very far away from balanced.

 

[salvificblood]

Wouldn't be that bad for Reptile? Imagine Sub hiting low hit box characters and going under all medium projectiles (like Reptile's ball forces). He would be so helpless, man.

About the rest you said I totally agree. This game IS fucked up. I've been saying for a few days now. lol Far, very far away from balanced.

I prefer Dave's suggestion for the slide after ex slide. If Sub got that, and 2 hitting all croucing hitboxes, I'd go back to being 100% Sub-Zero.

Remember, though, the suggestion was for Sub's slide to go under all duckable projectiles.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

yeah... force ball isn't a duck able projectile... and Sub can slide his spit as is.

We can only hope that either "Shredder" Sub-Zero or Frost in MK10 can pick up the slack. I hope that in any new incarnation... that they find a way to make everyone A tier...

 

[SunnyD]

There's just not much reason (correct me if I'm wrong) to use that string if your opponent is blocking. Only if they are at the corner, but to be honest that's the string that I use less at midscreen unless I'm combo'ing someone. Good players won't be wasting meter after meter for it, unless it's killing you.

I like to use the full 212 in the corner to pop out an ice clone. The clone comes out really close. You cant do that with b12, 21, or 22. Both 214 and b121 can be poked out of. That only leaves 224 midscreen, which is what i used to use. But 224 doesnt work for the corner either. So only by getting that special knockdown after 222, can you get a close ice clone on the opponent. Or jumping, but i dont like to do that, i find invincibility frames just rips through the ice clone and i get combo'd to death.

 

[Qwark28]

Remove freeze scaling
Make 21 connect vs all

Give him higher chip damage?make him a JC whos mediocre at everything.

EX clone should be made behind/in front of opponent or dissapear after 8 seconds.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

What if his Slide could be cancelled? Kinda like how Kabal cancels his Nomad Dash.

 

[salvificblood]

What if his Slide could be cancelled? Kinda like how Kabal cancels his Nomad Dash.

He doesn't need to have his playstyle completely overhauled,he just needs to be allowed to be a bit better at what he does.

 

[OnizukaPM]

Sub-Zero is low tier as character
Sub-Zero Forum is GOD TIER in buff requesting threads!

 

[deathgun]

I cant see slide going under projectiles as a good buff at all, its just an ok buff that will help one or two matchups. if I were in charge of the tweaks Id change it just due the fact that to me its more like a bug than anything else, like the buggy crouch hurtboxes part of the cast have.

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Id correct those buggy hurtboxes and the slide not ducking correctly to begin with coz I consider those as beeing bugs, then Id remove the ice pudle from the game to avoid SZ to do it by mistake while doing d1.

I cant see a good use for the ice puddle other than the ex version to reset a combo before the patch, and to me he can simply take a damage increasement in his combos' damage instead a reset, everyone knows he does crappy damage, then give him a damage increasement once for all, much easier to solve the problem this way than to think about crazy resets or whatever else, so Id remove the move from the game w/o thinking twice.

Once my suggestions would to give SZ more chances to hit his combos and would also help him to build meter faster (i think he is the worse meter-builder in the game because he sucks at pressuring the opponent with blocked strings due the bugged hurtboxes and due the fact hes outzoned by everybody) , his damage output trough the round would to increase anyway and he would to break combos more often aswell so he will to take a little less damage. Id not change his combos' damage right now.

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The slide going under projectiles would not to help at all against his worse matchups, they all use IAFs. Against most of the duckable ground projectiles you would have to hit it in antecipation from midscreen or shorters distancies, theres a small range where you can act on reaction once it dont hit from full screen. I can foresee subzero getting baited all the time by those chars, and when subzero chooses right he will deal 10%, when the opponent chooses correctly, full combo. Imo the probabilities are heavily against SZ here.

I think Id add something to cancel the slide similar as what Kabal does with the Nomad Dash, but with a bigger recover time after the cancel, kabal's one is ridiculous. That would to help sz against IAFers, would improve the reading game against the ones with grounded fireballs and would to help him to do damage when theres a projectile trade (people would to think twice before to trade projectiles with him, something like Cyrax). If the opponent read it right and dash block, full combo or at least a low poke hitting subzero if he cancels it too far from the enemy. Id have to test the recover of the slide cancel to assure me that it would not to work to keep the pression with mixups, like kabal's one.

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The iceclone to make him to backdash farther when used as a wake up move so it would have an utility as a reversal other than to avoid chip damage from a fireball (increase the duration of the freezing effect of the wake up clone on the opponent by a few frames to compensate the extra time SZ will take to reach the him, so he would to be able to land the same combos as now). SZ sucks really hard when the rushers get him down. He would still suck coz the iceclone wont freeze the opponent pressing SZ on his wakeup, but he would have one more option to escape the pression and the opponent would be able to still do something if he read it right (jump forward, dash, teleports or moves with horizontal movement).

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The iceball is the trickiest one to tweak imo, I think there are a lot of things to change togheter in order to make sz good but not op. Id make it to do 5% of damage and would not to change the damage scalling, it would be as it is now. Startup speed increased by 10%, would to freeze airborn opponents a little longer (still shorter than the freeze time against grounded ones, and this change would to be only to the iceball and ex iceball, iceclone timmings would remain the same). the idea is to make the IAFers do not own sz so hard as they do now, when they trade a IAF with the freeze they would to do theirs 8-10% and would to eat the 5% and sometimes they would to eat a slide aswell, grounded opponents would to inflict theirs projectile's damage and eat a combo due the slide cancel, not much different from what it is today excepting some chars that can keep spamming grounded projectiles with faster recover and when they trade with the iceball they lose in the worst possible scenario around 9%.

This is what Id change today in SubZero IF NO OTHER CHARACTERS WOULD RECEIVE CHANGES ASWELL.

Theres a lot of matchups that I dont know very well and probably these buffs would to have weird consequencies on them, I was only thinking on stuffs to help against the chars SZ have more problems right now.

 

[deathgun]

What if his Slide could be cancelled? Kinda like how Kabal cancels his Nomad Dash.

lol I just read this page after I posted my stuff. Good to know im not the only that thinks it would have its uses

 

[kdog9114]

Ok in my opinion sub needs:
1: Armour on Ex Freeze and he freezes enemies in the air for longer
Rationale: This gives him more punishing against long range enemies
2: Ice puddle removed (maybe)
Rationale: He doesn't need it
3: No scaling on freeze
Rationale: Slow sub zero = more damage and beside sub doesn't even have high combo damage
4: Last hit of 212 overhead
Rationale: with 22 now slower this would really help sub
5: or double mini-freeze on 212 (maybe)
Rationale: Increases subs combo damage eg. 212 df3 212 bf4
6: Ice parry (maybe)
Rationale: Oh,cmon!!! sub has 3 special (not including ice puddle cause it s***s)
7: Xray Armour improved (maybe)
Rationale: If your a sub player then you'll know why
My opinion only

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

yeah... force ball isn't a duck able projectile... and Sub can slide his spit as is.

We can only hope that either "Shredder" Sub-Zero or Frost in MK10 can pick up the slack. I hope that in any new incarnation... that they find a way to make everyone A tier...

If it's "shredder" Sub-Zero. I'm dropping him.

Hate that costume. lmao

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If it's "shredder" Sub-Zero. I'm dropping him.

Hate that costume. lmao

lies. it is >>>>>>>> than any of these outfits.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

lies. it is >>>>>>>> than any of these outfits.

That's the worst costume he's ever had other than the unmasked MK3 costume.

This being his best:

All, imo, of course.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

That's the worst costume he's ever had other than the unmasked MK3 costume.

This being his best:

All, imo, of course.

I don't think thats the costume you wanted to post.