Question Was Cyber Sub Zero really as bad as everyone said?

[Thunderless]

Cyber Sub so funny to play, i like him) And i dont know really bad MU, maybe Kenshi...

 

[STRYKIE]

I don't think he was an outright awful character, but he certainly suffered from middle child syndrome. As UFG pointed out, from a competitive standpoint, there's no reason whatsoever to use him over Sonya.

Another thing people tend to forget; he probably wasn't even originally going to be a playable character. He's literally just a clusterfuck of unused/spare animations from other characters.

Now J360, I thoroughly respect what you've done for CSZ, and I myself am usually the voice of reason when it comes to baseless assumptions about the matchups of a low/lower-mid tier character, but some of your matchup chart makes no sense at all, why in the blue of hell would Kenshi be worse than Kitana/Kabal/Liu Kang lol? I'm just sayin.

_________

@iShinnok03 - I used to think Ice Ball was hella slow too, but it actually turns out it's only 1 frame slower than Human Subs. Still far from ideal, but the more you know.

Also, the Kabal matchup, while still stupid, isn't as lopsided as some may assume. Bizarrely enough, he's actually one of the few characters that can't punish a quasi instant Divekick up close at all.

 

[TaffyMeat]

Watch @UsedForGlue CSZ

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

He is fun to play but, on some mu he suffers a lot.
Competitive wise he is rather a bad option, maybe not as mad as Jade but still is. I do like to play around with CSZ and I can handle my self well, though when I am against Top motherfuckers and I play to win I dont even consider him to be an option.

 

[fr stack]

u3 tele , is a god daamn infinite bros

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

u3 tele , is a god daamn infinite bros

Its U4 teleport brah......

 

[fr stack]

Its U4 teleport brah......

shiiit lol

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Honestly, csz parry only good if there are gaps in pressure with mid to high hits. If someone has good pokes/ low normals then they will use that bcuz csz got sucky pokes. Also he gets hella zoned out by air projectiles (kabal, liu, kitana, etc.,) I can beat a csz by just shooting projectiles with kabal and a few normals here and there lol.

 

[BarackaFlockaFlame]

Back when MK9 was at its prime i remember constantly debating with people about the CSZ matchup, anytime i got into a debate with people all i would ever get is theory talk. If it wasn't theory talk then i would get responses like "my cousin played CSZ for a month and couldn't touch my quan chi" or "i can punish dive kick with x y and z" as a reason as to why CSZ was bad. These answers were the product of people either never having fought a high level CSZ or never having played against CSZ at all.

Now i consider myself a high level CSZ, i never had any tournament placing because of the fact that i didn't take the game seriously, i never have nor do i take injustice seriously. All i ever did was play at VSM with arguably some of the best character representatives in the US and travel to tournaments because i love the scene. I've had my chance to play long sets with players from many regions such as the CD brothers, Reo, Dizzy (who seems to know alot about CSZ), 16 bit, tyrant, Zaf, Gross, and pretty much most of the players who attended the MLG tournaments. Some matchups i would simply get outplayed, others my opponents would adapt and still have trouble winning due to my characters tools that MUST be respected.

There weren't many CSZ representatives, and most of the ones left dropped the character when they had trouble learning certain match ups. At the end of the games life span i went back to CSZ and had a great amount of success in long sets and money matches with the character.

I put alot of work into this character and explored far more than most have with him, enough to know that most people simply "just dont know". I know its super late for this kind of thing but when i hear people get blown up for saying their character loses to CSZ it's unsettling example Waffles saying CSZ gives Smoke a hard time, which he does.

Was CSZ really a shitter or just unexplored?

For the lulz here is my legit Matchup chart.

Baraka 5-5
Cyrax 5-5
Ermac 5-5
Freddy Krueger 5-5
Jade 7-3
Jax 4-6
Johnny Cage 4-6 possible 5-5
Kabal 4-6
Kano 6-4
Kenshi 3-7
Kitana 4-6
Kung Lao 5-5
Liu Kang 5-5
Mileena 5-5
Nightwolf 6-4
Noob Saibot 6-4
Quan Chi 7-3
Raiden 6-4
Rain 5-5
Reptile 6-4
Scorpion 5-5
Sektor 6-4
Shang Tsung 5-5
Sheeva 8-2
Sindel 6-4
Skarlet 5-5
Smoke 6-4
Sonya 4-6
Stryker 5-5
Sub-Zero 4-6

i feel he was unexplored but he wouldnt be much better if someone took the time to see what hes fully capable of i still feel like he would get bodied by alot of the cast

 

[ScorpionRules!!!92]

In my opinion, I think he's awesome.

 

[Insuperable]

I definitely see CSZ beating Quan, but I can't put a number on it. There's so many "what ifs" in that matchup. Aside from the dive kick, people need to realize how big of an impact parry has on Quan.

B3(parry)1+2
Block string to ex rune (parry) if slightly mistimed
F12 (parry) on reaction to f1
U3 (parry)
Sky drop (parry) if 212 or slightly mistimed 11. B3 1+2 is an option if you can read parry

Lack of wakeup leaves Quan vulnerable to death loops with bomb traps

Losing matchup for Quan, but too many "what ifs" for me to put an actual number on this @STB Shujinkydink @G4S J360

 

[RM AtK!]

Honestly, csz parry only good if there are gaps in pressure with mid to high hits. If someone has good pokes/ low normals then they will use that bcuz csz got sucky pokes. Also he gets hella zoned out by air projectiles (kabal, liu, kitana, etc.,) I can beat a csz by just shooting projectiles with kabal and a few normals here and there lol.

iono bout that malik.. i'm sure the (best) csz could beat your kabal lol lbsh. Not clownin, just saying u dont play kabal much and im sure a good player on any character could get past just shooting fireballs

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

iono bout that malik.. i'm sure the (best) csz could beat your kabal lol lbsh. Not clownin, just saying u dont play kabal much and im sure a good player on any character could get past just shooting fireballs

Umm I would put money down that I would beat them , so serious lol. Csz dnt scare me at all lol

 

[BarackaFlockaFlame]

EVERYONE needs to start playing mk9 online and that real talk i miss the good OL days

 

[RM AtK!]

Umm I would put money down that I would beat them , so serious lol. Csz dnt scare me at all lol

dannggggg that bold as fuck haha. where all them cbz mains at?

iono man cbz dont scare me either but im not gonna say that ill beat them only using a fireball on a character i dont play / or have like rarely played vs the best cbz or top cbz players w/e -.-

 

[STRYKIE]

I definitely see CSZ beating Quan, but I can't put a number on it. There's so many "what ifs" in that matchup. Aside from the dive kick, people need to realize how big of an impact parry has on Quan.

B3(parry)1+2
Block string to ex rune (parry) if slightly mistimed
F12 (parry) on reaction to f1
U3 (parry)
Sky drop (parry) if 212 or slightly mistimed 11. B3 1+2 is an option if you can read parry

Lack of wakeup leaves Quan vulnerable to death loops with bomb traps

Losing matchup for Quan, but too many "what ifs" for me to put an actual number on this @STB Shujinkydink @G4S J360

Are you saying the ex rune is parryable?! Or do you mean not following up in time with the guaranteed 212 after it?

 

[RM AtK!]

Are you saying the ex rune is parryable?! Or do you mean not following up in time with the guaranteed 212 after it in time?

pretty sure hes talkin about the physical pressure gaps that csz can parry before he lands them.. not the actual rune lmao just the strings

 

[STRYKIE]

pretty sure hes talkin about the physical pressure gaps that csz can parry before he lands them.. not the actual rune lmao just the strings

Yeah that's what I'm going with lol, but believe me when I say, I've seen crazier things get parried.

 

[TotteryManx]

Possibly unexplored, as are a lot of characters. It's taken 4-5 years for some people to find serious dirt in other games. Most people quit MK after 2-3 years lol.

 

[REDRUM]

the issue for CSZ is just looking at your MU chart its telling...


Losing to Kabal, Kenshi, Sonya, Cage, Kitana, Jax is all he needs to really lose to and makes his life HELL at a Tournemaent cause lets face it, those chars I just mentioned are who you will run into during pools and get blown up by per se.


Now I personally think he a) fun to watch and b) pretty good in a lot of mu's but dam near impossible to win a tourney filled with those murderer chars.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

dannggggg that bold as fuck haha. where all them cbz mains at?

iono man cbz dont scare me either but im not gonna say that ill beat them only using a fireball on a character i dont play / or have like rarely played vs the best cbz or top cbz players w/e -.-

I am the cast tho , nd I aint joking lol, I am quite serious. But seriously tho, mk is definitely not fleshed out for sure, so maybe csz could have been more deadly than we thought.

 

[RM AtK!]

I am the cast tho , nd I aint joking lol, I am quite serious. But seriously tho, mk is definitely not fleshed out for sure, so maybe csz could have been more deadly than we thought.

haha i love you my dood and youre sick with "almost" everyone, but lbsh that kabal needs some attention haah

 

[NYCj360]

Now J360, I thoroughly respect what you've done for CSZ, and I myself am usually the voice of reason when it comes to baseless assumptions about the matchups of a low/lower-mid tier character, but some of your matchup chart makes no sense at all, why in the blue of hell would Kenshi be worse than Kitana/Kabal/Liu Kang lol? I'm just sayin

The kenshi number is really a joke lol

But he does have armor for everything, the fact that his moves force a jump and even if i jump no respect is necessary because he can just do a move AGAIN coated in armor. He simply does not have gaps in his strings like Kabal and Kitana that can be parried or made whiff-able for punishing. As far as liu kang goes i will admit that i have never played against a SUPER top Liu so i could be wrong.

But i had plenty of kabal and kenshi with reo, lol plenty

 

[SAREDODEVIL]

CSZ-NOOB SAIBOT is pretty even imo, both chars have options for each

 

[SAREDODEVIL]

and i think rain is unexplored too, he have so many options, but honestly CSZ have the worst teleport in the game, rain the 2 worst