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To super move or not to super move, that is the question?

Sol Sinister

"This will always be a world of dictators."
Thanks for understanding Eddyward. In the youtube video "The Nitty Gritty of Injustice: Gods Among Us" Hector Sanchez of NetherRealm states at approximately at 15:15 that this game would be a departure from older titles and a focus on fighting gaming. Now to make this game a BETTER FIGHTING GAME, I feel that Eddyward's proposal is a MORE APPROPRIATE MEASURE to address SUPER MOVE USAGE. I stated this topic to bring awareness to the SUPER MOVE USAGE and would like to see that addressed. Im am new to this community and I probably sound like a foreigner telling natives how to improve their gov't. I DO NOT WANT THAT. Since you understand my CONCERN, could you elaborate more Eddyward. I really like the direction your taking. Thank you for your time and remarks everyone.
 
"There are better uses for meter than a super move." That statement is at the heart of every player and it shouldn't; thats why i proposed a SEPARATION of meter building actions. One for METER BURN USAGE and one for SUPER MOVE USAGE. Thats all. Again, sorry if I was not clear. Again thoughts on this reality.
And this is what I dislike on SF4. Should I use my meter for Supers or for extending combos? The meter management in SF4 is old fashioned, cause there is no management. There are a lot uf Super setups which are completely unrelieable for matches with low damage output. The Super meter is used for FADC Combos or trading (fireball wars). By separating the meters, the ultra becomes a huge comeback mechanic. The meter in MK9 or IJ us fine, best thing, you can steal it and this limits the options of your opponent.
 

Eddyward

Noob
I definitely think that it's unfortunate that supers aren't used more; a lot of them are really great. I have a feeling that they will end up changing supers to at least scale less in combos and do more damage in general. If I'm not mistaken, super moves do 33% damage by themselves, and most combos that use super moves only go up to about 42-45%. Which isn't terrible damage, but it's terrible damage considering the cost. The ratio of cost to effectiveness for super moves right now is a bit absurd. It's 4:1 basically. Many characters do much more damage with just 1 bar. Pretty much every character has a meterless combos that can do as much damage as a super move.

Right now, the sole purpose of using most super moves is for flashy damage that you don't really have to "work" for. If you connect with a super, you don't have to worry about dropping your combo or anything. You are 100% sure that you will deal that damage to the opponent, which is especially nice if your opponent is around 33% health and you don't want to risk dropping a combo and losing. But is that enough to spend 4 bars when you need to save your meter for clashes, push block, or meter burned moves that have more utility? And when your super move can just be blocked!?

So this brings us to your original request, having supers being able to be used more often because their effect is too low for how little they can be used. However, this can ruin the game aesthetic. Imagine Trigon blasting you 5 times in a single fight, or getting hit by the Batmobile at the end of both matches. It sort of counters the fact that we want to see more supers - by letting us see supers more often, we may end up wanting to see them less often! The reason we want to see more supers is because we really don't see them at all. But, we don't want to see more supers over the course of a single fight, we just want to see them used in general. It doesn't create interesting gameplay patterns to be able to constantly throw supers out for a lot of damage.

We want to be rewarded for saving 4 bars to use a super. If someone's strategy is to save their meter just so they can use their super move, they should be rewarded for it, rather than punished like they are now. It's a legit strategy of meter management; it may seem like a bad use of meter management, but it's a form of high risk for high reward. So there are two ways to go about making super moves more effective rather than more accessible:
  1. Lower damage scaling when using a super move in a combo
  2. Giving super moves more utility -> unblockable
The first suggestion has already been discussed, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people agree that it's a good way of going about this problem. However, the second suggestion is to give super moves a reason to be used rather than just big, easy damage. The only thing that can really point to is to make them all unblockable for guaranteed damage. I do believe that Green Arrow's is unblockable already? By making all supers unblockable, they suddenly turn into a huge comeback mechanic, similar to using all 4 bars during a clash. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you and your opponent are low on health, and you saved all 4 bars of your meter - you suddenly have this big advantage with your super. Unblockable supers is definitely concerning, but it does create an interesting mindset during gameplay that can already be seen a little bit with Green Arrow and even Solomon Grundy. It suddenly creates positioning concerns: it will become imperative to dodge super moves or to put yourself in a good position to avoid danger. Super moves would become an intense moment of gameplay, much like clashes are right now.There is still risk in throwing out naked super moves because they can still miss if you aren't close enough in the first place.

Holy %$&# - TL;DR: The TL;DR is mostly the stuff I bolded, but here's a summary. If they lower the scaling on super moves, will we really want to spend 4 meters on a super move just for cool 60% combos? Does it create interesting gameplay to easily do that much damage? Is it worth it to wait an entire fight to save 4 meters just for that? As the game stands right now, it has such a great meter management system, except for super moves. Should we then add utility to super moves to make it worth spending 4 bars of meter on them, such as making all of them unblockable, to create interesting gameplay patterns that are exhibited in all other forms of meter management in the game right now? I personally don't know yet. :p
 
Just to clarify, SF4 does not separate Super Moves from the Meter Burn/EX moves. It works exactly the same way as Injustice. Four bars of meter, and a Super Move that uses all four bars. You're thinking of the Ultra mechanic, which is a separate meter that specifically fills up WHEN YOU LOSE. It's a very horrible comeback mechanic system that has, and I'm not exaggerating, turned off every SF2 fan I tried to get to play SF4 with me. They fundamentally hate this idea (as do I, but I wanted to give the game a shot anyway).

The reason I think the mechanic works PERFECTLY the way it is now, is that cinematic Super Moves destroy the pace of the game. The same could be said for the stage transitions, as I wish they were much faster. I have no desire to see more Super Moves being used in any capacity in Injustice. So what they've done, is provided excellent cinematic Super Moves for more casual players to ooh and ahh over, and yet provided serious players with -far better- uses for that meter, so that super moves are barely even used (if at all) in high-level play.

I'm actually extremely impressed with what NRS has done and the balancing act they've achieved.
 

CY MasterHavik

Master of Chaos and Jax
best supers....

Bane(dat damage)
Grundy(full armor and crazy damage)
Superman(whiff punish)
Raven(It's -9 on block)
Green Arrow(Unblockable and leads to a reset)

Everyone else doesn't need their super. Those five characters do need their super.
 

insomnia_ftw

It's simple.. We normalize the superman.
Just to clarify, SF4 does not separate Super Moves from the Meter Burn/EX moves. It works exactly the same way as Injustice. Four bars of meter, and a Super Move that uses all four bars. You're thinking of the Ultra mechanic, which is a separate meter that specifically fills up WHEN YOU LOSE. It's a very horrible comeback mechanic system that has, and I'm not exaggerating, turned off every SF2 fan I tried to get to play SF4 with me. They fundamentally hate this idea (as do I, but I wanted to give the game a shot anyway).
.
This. It was an annoying comeback mechanic that would really suck in injustice considering the armor on so many supers.
 

Reptile Orion

A Fire Will Rise.
I like the game as is. In my opinion the meter is best used for clashes and meter burn. It is far too valuable to waste on a super move that may or may not connect. I primarily used super moves as a counter when I know the probability of it connecting is very high.
 

Sol Sinister

"This will always be a world of dictators."
Holy %$&# - TL;DR: The TL;DR is mostly the stuff I bolded, but here's a summary. If they lower the scaling on super moves, will we really want to spend 4 meters on a super move just for cool 60% combos? Does it create interesting gameplay to easily do that much damage? Is it worth it to wait an entire fight to save 4 meters just for that? As the game stands right now, it has such a great meter management system, except for super moves. Should we then add utility to super moves to make it worth spending 4 bars of meter on them, such as making all of them unblockable, to create interesting gameplay patterns that are exhibited in all other forms of meter management in the game right now? I personally don't know yet. :p


Eddyward makes great points. What if they scaled the SUPER MOVE to 3 METERS. Wouldn't that address all concerns? Or does everyone in the community believe the SUPER MOVE is for casual players as Lucky Jim does:

So what they've done, is provided excellent cinematic Super Moves for more casual players to ooh and ahh over, and yet provided serious players with -far better- uses for that meter, so that super moves are barely even used (if at all) in high-level play.

I'm actually extremely impressed with what NRS has done and the balancing act they've achieved.

Does the community feel that the SUPER MOVES is a casual players mechanic??????? If they DO FEEL THIS WAY, then i will apologize and happily close this thread. If the community feels that SUPER MOVES are a serious players mechanic please elaborate on how to deal with the meter management to increase their utility?? Thank you all for your time and comments. Greatly appreciated.