The Problems Of Breakaway

[Chernyy Volk]

Hopefully I can get people in here who actually want to discuss this and people wont' just come in to meme etc.

I think the gameplay foundation of MK11 for the most part is flawless, but I want to talk about breakaway because I think it's a real eyesore to the decision making, neutral and risk/reward of MK11. I think we're all working around it just fine at this point, but it doesn't change the fact it's a shitty mechanic to me and I want to lay out in some detail the problem I have with it.

The essential thesis statement of my complaint is, it's the best defensive option to such a degree that it renders EVERYTHING ELSE pointless.

Now, it's more complicated than the breakaway itself, I think the wakeup options need buffs so you're incentivized to not just breakaway, but breakaway plays a big factor both because it's the best go to option and because it punishes people for using the wakeup options (u2 obviously), successfully.

So it works like this right? We're playing neutral, footsies, neither of us have touched each other for a good 30 seconds, you finally get that clean whiff punish, make the jump read on a badly placed projectile etc and get your hit confirm and assuming they've labbed the optimal (ASAP) break point you just used a bar to do like, 15% to them? Not only did they just "opt" out of their fuck up in neutral essentially, there's no element of unpredictability. They can simply opt to take a throw, which for most characters resets neutral and all they have to think about is whether they delayed wake up or not. Not only did the guy just undo his mistake in neutral, he also has less to worry about despite having no defensive bar.

But let's just say you want to emphasize that element of the other guy having no defensive bar. It's probably not going to matter. There is almost no situation in this game where getting somebody off breakaway and scoring a full combo after does more damage than successfully oki-ing someone on a wakeup read. At the highest level if you watch right now, the insta-break is mostly what we're seeing because it's a very "why not" decision. Yeah, you might get pressured by Jacqui, but she spent a bar, didn't even get to do 13% to you and has to open you up all over again. In highest level MU's between lame play characters, by the time the next hit is found if the guy who broke first gets hit again he can more than likely break again.

So I think this is due to a few things

1: The neutral focus of the game meaning you have to really outplay your opponent. This is a good thing. The problem is breakaway giving you essentially a free throw on fucking up.

2: Wakeup attacks do not give the reward for the hard reads they require. I've said before Invincible wakeups should be buffed to 12% damage and U2's should be 15%. When you factor in the possibility of getting shimmied, why EVER take the risk on this? You will always take more damage if you're wrong here than breaking away and getting opened up again.

3: Ability to capitalize on this lack of defensive bar is entirely determined by your KB's honestly. Punishment/Kounter hit KB's that launch are kind of bad honestly, because most people insta-break these if they launch, that one time resource is gone and almost wasted and in some cases (Scorpion's f34 for example) the insta-break literally results in LESS DAMAGE than a string into a special cancel. Grounded punishment/single hit/distance based KB's are I think arguably superior in this regard. Finding the opportunity to actually hit one of these launching punishment KB's after winning neutral is pretty difficult at high level because gratuitous whiffs and careless counter poking basically don't exist. What this results in is combo based Krushing Blows have poor utility, while fully grounded ones with differing requirements are more practically accessible, resulting in a power balance issue. Characters like Geras have the most accessible krushing blows you can get, while characters like Kabal, Baraka etc are kind of fucked by this.

So, here's the thing right? I think what NRS envisioned is people wouldn't opt to just always break and they would try to play the oki game because in that universe, LOTS of these KB's are realistically achievable in ways that aren't breakable because you made the read. For example, I can block punish somebody with Baraka with 112~db3, make a read, if they roll I can 122 and now I got my big capitalization read. The problem is, because breakaway is so good, and because it's so available, you can't even goad people into playing this game of wakeup chicken with you, They'll eat the throw and the block pressure all day long because they know if you open them up they just break AND your KB's you might use to read oki options will be less accessible.

I don't know what you would do about it tbh but I'm very tempted to say it should be once per round. Maybe even once per game. It's just a big wrinkle in this really well designed game to me. There's also the problem of break away allowing people to do all sorts of insane hail marys with no fucks given because they can just insta break.

In summary, I think for a game so neutral/footsie focused breakaway as it currently stands flies in the face of that. For it being an option with virtually no counterplay, it shouldn't be as available as it is. It both ultimately rewards both maniac and super lame play for the wrong reasons and it also cuts a substantial amount of the KB meta out of the game.

Anyways what're peoples thoughts on this?

 

[M2Dave]

I should charge you for making me read that wall of text.

In all seriousness, you bring up legitimate concerns with the breakaway system. On the other hand, some people may argue that the system adds depth by forcing you to adjust combos based on the opponent's meter, apply risk-free okizeme options, and use strings that would otherwise be easily flawless blockable.

Ultimately, there is more than one solution depending on the direction NRS wants to take the game. They could limit breakaways but buff wake up attacks, as you implied. Or they could leave the breakaways as they are and buff krushing blow requirements for most of the low and mid tier characters, especially considering the worthlessness of many krushing blows.

I used to believe (and still do to an extent) that breakaways were a flawed mechanic used to cover for sloppy gameplay decisions, but I am no longer 100% certain that the mechanic is necessarily bad.

 

[fr stack]

I have the opposite view i actually want them to breakaway i can taste the fear when they have no defence options left its great

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I have the opposite view i actually want them to breakaway i can taste the fear when they have no defence options left its great

There is no fear. This is a placebo you tell yourself lol.

 

[fr stack]

There is no fear. This is a placebo you tell yourself lol.

Swings and roundabouts friend 8)

 

[MKF30]

I miss breakers, IMO they were better and more efficient than the breakaways and honestly in cases where you're in the corner it's pretty much death to you as the wake ups in this game aren't exactly great either. Moves stuff out the wake ups compared to MK 9, the armor is non existent. At least with breakers you literally get space and knock the aggressor back. The Breakaway merely forces you down to the ground, but if the aggressor is quick enough they can just dash up and continue pressure.

Breakers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Breakways

 

[Eddy Wang]

Buffing Krushing Blows requirements would be the way to go.

As the meta progresses we are startig to see more and more of flawless block and its punishes, its very important to understand that however breaks away cannot wakeup freely, and cannot use block attack punishes, so this person is subjective to take more pressure because of it.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I kinda like it. When they breakaway my spacing is guaranteed because I don’t have to worry about wake up roll.

 

[Wigy]

I was all against breakaways til I played the game properly.

The Oki you get after makes up for it. You can read and D2. Often not loosing a whole lot of damage.

Someone rolls out after a launcher you can go with the momentum and end them. Also wakeup options are strong as shit In this game IMO. Some characters like cetrion rightfully have trash ones but for the most part everyone has a decent one that commands enough respect for you to sneak rolls in or just stand up and attack if they walk back to whiff punish

 

[UsedForGlue]

.

I used to believe (and still do to an extent) that breakaways were a flawed mechanic used to cover for sloppy gameplay decisions, but I am no longer 100% certain that the mechanic is necessarily bad.

The only issue I have is with forward rolls. People complain about breakaways and getting blown up for hitting the opponent, yet forward rolls are the exact same thing.

 

[Rude]

So once you breakaway, you lose the ability to ignore chip until your meter refills. You also can't use armor interactables including corner escapes, etc.

You pretty much either delay or take the guessing games Liu Kang, Sonya, Geras, etc force on you.

I think it's fine. Especially when you can break corner escape armor. That makes you feel godlike.

 

[Rude]

*combo escape armor

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Don't care for them. Some characters are able to inflict their damage totally grounded, while others must launch. How is that fair? I'm not salty about it, I use a variety of characters and it's just something I've noticed. I can choose to keep opponents totally grounded for unbreakable damage with characters like Sub and Scorp, but someone like Johnny doesn't have the same luxury. How is that fair and balanced?

 

[colby4898]

• The only issue I have is with forward rolls. People complain about breakaways and getting blown up for hitting the opponent, yet forward rolls are the exact same thing.

• How is it the same thing? Breakaways get you away mid launch. Roll is off the ground, and you can punish people for going with oki that’s easily punished by this option.
• I don’t have a problem with any of these systems. My only issue with this game is 14% throws and they KB

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I should charge you for making me read that wall of text.

In all seriousness, you bring up legitimate concerns with the breakaway system. On the other hand, some people may argue that the system adds depth by forcing you to adjust combos based on the opponent's meter, apply risk-free okizeme options, and use strings that would otherwise be easily flawless blockable.

Ultimately, there is more than one solution depending on the direction NRS wants to take the game. They could limit breakaways but buff wake up attacks, as you implied. Or they could leave the breakaways as they are and buff krushing blow requirements for most of the low and mid tier characters, especially considering the worthlessness of many krushing blows.

I used to believe (and still do to an extent) that breakaways were a flawed mechanic used to cover for sloppy gameplay decisions, but I am no longer 100% certain that the mechanic is necessarily bad.
[

I should charge you for making me read that wall of text.

In all seriousness, you bring up legitimate concerns with the breakaway system. On the other hand, some people may argue that the system adds depth by forcing you to adjust combos based on the opponent's meter, apply risk-free okizeme options, and use strings that would otherwise be easily flawless blockable.

Ultimately, there is more than one solution depending on the direction NRS wants to take the game. They could limit breakaways but buff wake up attacks, as you implied. Or they could leave the breakaways as they are and buff krushing blow requirements for most of the low and mid tier characters, especially considering the worthlessness of many krushing blows.

I used to believe (and still do to an extent) that breakaways were a flawed mechanic used to cover for sloppy gameplay decisions, but I am no longer 100% certain that the mechanic is necessarily bad.

Well I appreciate the time you took to read the wall of text.

So like, I think the KB requirements that are just completely impractical should definitely change, however I don't think much beyond fixing impracticality needs to be addressed.

I want to address this though.

"In all seriousness, you bring up legitimate concerns with the breakaway system. On the other hand, some people may argue that the system adds depth by forcing you to adjust combos based on the opponent's meter, apply risk-free okizeme options, and use strings that would otherwise be easily flawless blockable."

The thing is characters DON'T have to adjust for the most part. The top 10 will always commit to the same combo no matter what and be absolutely fine especially. And while this is just a preference thing, I don't like the idea of optimal play in this game being risk-free oki. I'd like a game where both players HAVE to make the reads etc on the knockdown.

I don't believe breakaway is a scrub carrier, but I definitely believe it is a skill ceiling/floor reducer. Ultimately, I think wakeups should be buffed, AND breakaway should be less available AND impractical KB requirements should be changed to be realistic. I think we can all agree we want a diverse game that accomodates lots of approaches and character expressiveness, which I believe breakaway contributes to reducing.

So yeah I mean, the better player in this game DOES still win, or so you'd hope. I just think breakaway takes a little away from the engagement and excitement of the game honestly. I do think it allows a chance though for a player to win who normally wouldn't win, even at the highest level.

 

[Cashual]

The only issue I have is with forward rolls. People complain about breakaways and getting blown up for hitting the opponent, yet forward rolls are the exact same thing.

Different scenario though. With breakaways you’ve finally opened someone up and have committed your resource to a amplified launcher, and they’ve not only negated your damage but for many characters they’ve just full combo punished you for landing a hit.

Forward roll on wakeup is not immune to throws and you can simply grab them out of it. Not to mention you can just wait and full combo punish the roll in its recovery frames. It’s good that oki and wakeup both have options and counterplay.

And OP made the point that because breakaway is useful, most people aren’t even using the other defensive options like forward roll.

I just don’t think forward roll is nearly as strong as breakaway. If you time the throw meaty, throw beats a lot of stuff on getup, so if you throw people on oki here and there, they’re not going to forward roll, not to mention in obvious spots like being knocked down in the corner. Whereas with breakaway, there’s not a reason to not do it.

Yeah, I started d2ing when I launch people with both defensive bars and that’s cool and all, but still. It opens a whole other mind game like Shinnok’s hellsparks. Just the threat of meterburning them made people respect the regular version, so people wouldn’t mb them and still get the safety. I think breakaway could go the same way; people launching and doing d2 for fear of being punished by breakaway combo punish, and the defender doesn’t even do it and holds onto the meter.

I don’t know what the right answer is, the meta is still developing, so I say let it rock for now but we shall see. I definitely don’t think forward roll is a problem like breakaway currently, there’s too many answers to roll.

 

[Vslayer]

I have the opposite view i actually want them to breakaway i can taste the fear when they have no defence options left its great

That, and if you can train yourself to keep an eye on their meter, you know when you're going to use it. I still need to pay more attention to this, because instead of ending the combo you can use D2 and salvage some damage anyways (but it also depends how close to you they fall cause getting a D2 KB on a whiffed D2 is a thing and it hurts not only my health bar, but also my ego).

 

[Juggs]

Breakaway’s are fine for the most part. You win the neutral by landing the combo. Them doing a breakaway doesn’t reset the neutral, it puts the player who just used 2 defensive bars to breakaway at a clear disadvantage. They are now essentially helpless on wakeup and you are right next to them. Unless of course they breakaway during a long recovery move.

Meaty pressure is so strong in this game, it’s even stronger if you don’t have access to wakeup attacks or wakeup roll. It honestly feels like a pseudo reset they put themselves into when they breakaway. I main Scorpion and any combo he does that does any sorta decent damage is breakable. When they breakaway I feel extremely confident in my offense until they get a bar back. People also don’t take into account the damage you do after a breakaway. I’m assuming since the mixups or meaty’s aren’t guaranteed, it isn’t factored in.

The argument that some characters ignore this mechanic is definitely a valid one. BUT, as I said, since I feel I’m at an advantage after my opponent breaks, I don’t see this as big of a negative as others are suggesting.

I think a compromise for those who feel Breakaway’s are too strong is for the defensive meter bars to recover slower after you do a breakaway. Not by too much, but enough for it to be noticeable. I still feel they are fine in their current form though.

 

[xenogorgeous]

no worries so far regarding breakaway .... before the game came out, there was a thread making some "terrorism" about this mechanic, the consequences of it, and all negative backlash etc .... now that the game is in, none big deal was promoted by professional players saying that breakways is broken, anti-neutral gameplay stuff, etc

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don’t see the problem with breakaways. You say that you want some special advantage for hitting them again after the breakaway, but the advantage is that if you hit them again, you can meaty them for free after the knockdown.

As far as the wakeup options.. I think it’s important to not try to turn this game into some other game. Let it be MK11. U3 isn’t there for the damage. Think of it more as a “Get off me” move, like a pushblock. It’s intended to do two things:

1. Stop your opponent from meatying you after a knockdown
2. Give you advatage, so that you can get your “turn” back, rather than being on the defensive. It reverses the situation so that you can press your offense again.

The damage is incidental — it’s a nice extra benefit but it’s not the point of the move.

A bunch of players from NRS games are not used to having to just block on wakeup, but it’s fine. This game is not nearly as 50/50 starter-heavy as MKX or Injustice, nor is it obsessed with that kind of endless cancel pressure that forces you to poke or armor out before you die. So if you simply have to block and make an intelligent read on whether your opponent is moving in to meaty you, that should be fine. You still have a wakeup roll that you can use in both directions, etc.

 

[Marlow]

So it works like this right? We're playing neutral, footsies, neither of us have touched each other for a good 30 seconds, you finally get that clean whiff punish, make the jump read on a badly placed projectile etc and get your hit confirm and assuming they've labbed the optimal (ASAP) break point you just used a bar to do like, 15% to them? Not only did they just "opt" out of their fuck up in neutral essentially, there's no element of unpredictability. They can simply opt to take a throw, which for most characters resets neutral and all they have to think about is whether they delayed wake up or not. Not only did the guy just undo his mistake in neutral, he also has less to worry about despite having no defensive bar.

I don't know if it's that bad though, for the player who scored the combo. So in this scenario, you do 15% damage, they breakaway, and then eat a throw for another 14% damage. That's still 29% damage, which isn't that far off from what a lot of combos do anyways. Plus with how slowly defensive meter comes back they likely still won't have a defensive bar, so even though neutral is reset it means any knockdown you score puts them right back in the blender.

 

[Tony at Home]

My only remaining gripe is how it can make characters who rarely get launches a bit less fun to play.

Jade and Kitana's sai variations can only ever launch for a juggle in specific circumstances, mainly KBs. Far between enough that I feel my opponent always has defensive meter to break so I only ever d2 after launches much of the time.

So even if everything about breakaways mean they're balanced, it sometimes feels like a "no fun" button.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I don't know if it's that bad though, for the player who scored the combo. So in this scenario, you do 15% damage, they breakaway, and then eat a throw for another 14% damage. That's still 29% damage, which isn't that far off from what a lot of combos do anyways. Plus with how slowly defensive meter comes back they likely still won't have a defensive bar, so even though neutral is reset it means any knockdown you score puts them right back in the blender.

Let me explain this in more clear terms with situations than.

Guy eats a full combo which does 26-30% and gets thrown afterward cause he guessed wrong on oki. You net 40% MINIMUM total.

Guy breaks your launcher where you did maybe 14% and throw him again for another 14%. 28% total. The guy who broke is still escaping having to guess on a very high cost scenario which isn't the problem, it's that the defense bar regenerates fast enough that this can end up happening AGAIN the very next time you win the neutral.

Let's say you're right that the guy gets relaunched cause he doesn't have defensive bar.

14% string into launcher that's broken. You launch again for let's say 29%. 43% total net.

Guy eats a full combo and takes a throw. You do more damage altogether.

Once again, there is still not a situation here in which the guy doesn't force you to get off of more resources AND win neutral again in order to do less damage than if he were forced to think about NOT using the breakaway.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I feel like maybe I should make a video detailing this with examples. Getting them off the defense bar for breaking is 100% totally inconsequential against anyone with good defense and their punishment/counter poking knowledge on point.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I don’t see the problem with breakaways. You say that you want some special advantage for hitting them again after the breakaway, but the advantage is that if you hit them again, you can meaty them for free after the knockdown.

As far as the wakeup options.. I think it’s important to not try to turn this game into some other game. Let it be MK11. U3 isn’t there for the damage. Think of it more as a “Get off me” move, like a pushblock. It’s intended to do two things:

1. Stop your opponent from meatying you after a knockdown
2. Give you advatage, so that you can get your “turn” back, rather than being on the defensive. It reverses the situation so that you can press your offense again.

The damage is incidental — it’s a nice extra benefit but it’s not the point of the move.

A bunch of players from NRS games are not used to having to just block on wakeup, but it’s fine. This game is not nearly as 50/50 starter-heavy as MKX or Injustice, nor is it obsessed with that kind of endless cancel pressure that forces you to poke or armor out before you die. So if you simply have to block and make an intelligent read on whether your opponent is moving in to meaty you, that should be fine. You still have a wakeup roll that you can use in both directions, etc.

I would 100% agree with you if breakaway wasn't almost always on the table during a match and didn't make the defensive scenario for the opponent more predictable for them thus making it harder to even open them back up. Kabal gets SUPER fucked by Breakaway because all he can do is throw, which resets neutral, or TRY to stagger pressure you and he loses his turn quite easily. When he finally gets the punish, there is nothing he can do that's scary enough to make you panic. This is how I play the game, this is how a lot of top players approach the game. It's better to take the easier to deal with defense scenario than use the threat (or lack of threat) of the wakeup system.