Strategy - Scorpion Slips' Scorpion Assesement

[Eddy Wang]

Also, one of the things i love to do with ninjutsu, is when i read a heavy commitment react to it with teleport cancel, and end up with a free room for a clean punish behind them while they're on recovery frames.

One of the reasons why BM-T hates scorpion's teleport as well.

 

[ryublaze]

@Slips next time you stream can we watch you play some Ninjitsu against Red Raptor?

I think we r doing multiple steam sessions next week so we can do this. Tbh I'd rather fight Hellfire than Ninjitsu, i'm not that good at the Ninjitsu MU yet tho. It'll also be my last time in the Lou before I go back to school

 

[Prinz]

The character seems honest, thus not viable

 

[HeroesNZ]

This pretty much sums up our difference right here. If your opponent knows the mu, they won't give you anything but throw and f2. They won't do anything punishable, they won't get hit by j3, they won't get hit by b3. They'll stay grounded and work their way around d4 which isn't hard for some characters. The worst that can happen is eating a f2 or throw.

Sure, in an ideal scenario against an unnamed character. In a real match the opponent will throw a projectile when he shouldn't have, or he will jump when he shouldn't have, or he will press a button where he shouldn't have, or he will guess wrong on a 50/50 and be punished, or he will go for a throw and be punished, or he will get hit by wakeup EX Teleport.

Nobody likes being thrown after everything. B12 FBC throw, F3 FBC throw, 21 FBC throw, 214 FBC throw, D4 Throw, D3 throw, D1 throw, standing 1 throw. You can run up F2 or run stop and whiff punish with B3/F3. Eventually they will press a button. Especially since a throw can do 21%.

People also said that Batman should never touch you.

 

[STRYKIE]

Because once EB gets in Scorpion's face, the pressure is mind numbing. Now, if Ex Spear had armour, ala MK9, this would help alleviate the situation but the lack of armour and the fact that EB can bait out your Ex Tele wakeup and then blow it up for full combo makes the matchup an uphill climb. In neutral, it's pretty even.

That's my 2¢ on that topic.

Sounds you have an Erron problem more than a Scorpion vs Erron problem.What variation are you using against him?

 

[Ze Dingo]

Sounds you have an Erron problem more than a Scorpion vs Erron problem.What variation are you using against him?

Ninjutsu. I don't have an Erron problem, it's just what I've noticed, tbh. Feel free to provide an explanation why you think I'm wrong. I'm always open to counter-views and learning from them

 

[STRYKIE]

Ninjutsu. I don't have an Erron problem, it's just what I've noticed, tbh. Feel free to provide an explanation why you think I'm wrong. I'm always open to counter-views and learning from them

Okay, I can see Erron being tougher for Ninjutsu than Hellfire. But there are a few things to note about his pressure;

Scorpion has a low hitbox, not Cassie levels of low, but enough so to make Erron's standing 2 whiff, bear that in mind and capitalize when you can.

If and when you think he's going to cash in with command grab or EX grenade, don't bother with armor, just jump out and get a jumpkick conversion. The worst he can do is catch you with the sand in Outlaw, which he can't convert from to my knowledge and only does 3% into a regular knockdown.

The following is why I think Hellfire is optimal for the matchup;

Erron is a very stamina dependent character, so if you catch them trying the "run up and do a mixup" game, the threat of Flame Aura does well to regulate that, since he won't be able to break for a while and may even just resign to just taking the full monty when his stamina has recovered.

His armor isn't especially fast, and can be broken through with relative ease with the standing 1 strings during FBRC pressure. Flame Aura ticks also help if they're activated.

And of course, you do have access to the regular overhead F2, given that his mids are kinda ehh you can afford to disrespect him if it's blocked.

That's just my take and as a result I haven't really had any major problems vs Erron other than my own human mistakes.

 

[wa_black]

Scorpion Anti-airs with B1 outside of B2 range, and trip guards with ex teleports on same range when he can't run under them, he can't be neutral jumped because his NJP has a disjointed hitbox, so only loses to maybe Kung Jin or Predator, besides he has B2.

The options are there, its up to the player to not suck at using them, you should be throwing people with afraid of hitting those, that is the whole point of conditioning, if one is afraid of waking up, you throw, since they won't be pressing button fearing F2 or B4, they won't tech your throw, delayed wakeup disables wakeup attacks options as well, and they still have to guess either if you will throw or not.

When they think you will throw and try to go for a wakeup is when you should B4 or F2, also F2 has a proper range to be used, as well is more of a whiff punishing tool even if its built as an anti-wakeup tool.

A lot of Ninjutsu players i've seen doesn't even know how to approach with scorpion, Ninjutsu is tipically the type of character designed to walk, walk, and walk more, he doesn't unload all his bombs all at once, he threats you by walking, gets in and out your range, and conditions you with a well measured D4, standing 1 and standing 4, those are pokes just to harass, if you jump you will get punished, if you try to poke or counter when he is mobile, you eat a F2 or a B2 if you do something whiff punishable on distances you think you're safe, and he will keep walking to you, until you find yourself in the corner, where he can walkback to avoid your normals, and condition you to press buttons, even when you think he will F2, he might just walk in your space and hit you with a throw.

And if they don't start blocking low while you're inside their range, it will open for B3~ex spear, or raw F4 which i came to notice ppl tends to get eaten by those in Ninjutsu because the way its used is far more expanded rather than a 50-50 out of a teleport, which isn't exactly his game, Ninjutsu wins by making you pressing buttons, in order to win you need to press buttons, that is how the struggle comes against ninjutsu.

Not trying to hype up Ninjutsu or anything, but his neutral is so unique on his own, which kind of reminds me of the same way Ibuki plays neutrals in USF4

Now if you F2 or B4 all the time someone is knocked down, then you shouldn't be playing Ninjutsu, the first indication of Ninjutsu's gameplay is to destroy wakeups, so it auto conditions your opponent's to respect that option alone even without you using F2 even once during a set.

I didn't B2 couldn't anti-air, I just said it was limited with the ranges that it could anti-air.

When I mentioned that they could delay wake up, it was because they can CONDITION you the agressor in this situation to no F2 on their wake up because you'll whiff and may get punished. If you wait and block, then that allows the opponent to react and hit you before you change your mind and f2. Also f2 timings on wake up can be strict.

B4 is never useful. Even if you blow up their wake up, you get know damage. I feel it's much better to go with the slower f2 because it's safe and more reward, but I if you can land b4 which I'm not saying is impossilbe, I just haven't seen it and it looked pretty punishable when I tested it, but since the new buff it may be of slight use on an opponent with an ARMORED reversal that is SLOWER than the gap that f2 cover, who CAN'T PUNISH it on block, and can't whiff punish in the event that they delay. I feel like the stars have to align for this move to be useful. But yes it does shut down wakes up that f2 cannot, it's just does little damage and come with the risk of being punished, but outside of the CAPS conditions, I feel it's pretty useless. Sick brutality though.

Just want to point those of the neutral tools that you highlighted in your 4th paragraph are universal to all variations.

My issue with Ninjutsu's neutral game is that if they block f2, they're in. D4 is good (universal). B2 is good for walking (baiting) and just whiff punishing in general (just have to be quick). B4 is not relevant in the neutral and njp is good but slow; I find that most times I have to already be in the air to air-air opponents jumping in.

Technically it doesn't destroy wake ups. It turns them into a mix up... Which they already were. Now it's great the we can essentially lock opponents into delaying, but don't have any really voretx. Everybody is going to block low and react to f4. We may be able to delay the b3 to catch some opponents, but focused players, I feel, are just going to comfirm it. It's true that we can grab on there delayed wake up, but so can a lot of characters. I recall that even hellfire had some aura set ups that made it so opponents could wake up.

My opinion on Ninjutsu is not that it's bad. Just medicore. Everything were meant to excel and comes with a big "but..." [F2 blows up wakes, but it whiffs on delayed opponents]. I feel like to be tournament characters have to be fast and consistent. I feel like nothing Ninjutsu has in it's game plan is "guranteed." You can't pressure your opponent (with ninjutsu specific options). All of the mix ups are fundamental and not that rewarding. I feel like with the exceptions of a few things Kung Jin was what Ninjutsu was suppose to look like, except for things like the dive kick, projectiles, etc.

 

[Slips]

Scorpion isn't a character with a great comeback factor in any variation. There are plenty of ways to start a combo, it's not like the opponent's just gonna be standing there blocking the whole time. The opponent's gonna be trying to start their offense at the same time as you so you can hit them through a punish, an air-to-air, EX Teleport, an anti-air, a whiff punish, a counter-poke, frame-traps etc...

Sure, in an ideal scenario against an unnamed character. In a real match the opponent will throw a projectile when he shouldn't have, or he will jump when he shouldn't have, or he will press a button where he shouldn't have, or he will guess wrong on a 50/50 and be punished, or he will go for a throw and be punished, or he will get hit by wakeup EX Teleport.

Nobody likes being thrown after everything. B12 FBC throw, F3 FBC throw, 21 FBC throw, 214 FBC throw, D4 Throw, D3 throw, D1 throw, standing 1 throw. You can run up F2 or run stop and whiff punish with B3/F3. Eventually they will press a button. Especially since a throw can do 21%.

People also said that Batman should never touch you.

Yea dude, it's called people playing against your character's weakness. It's called people who 'know the matchup'. When a matchup is grinded out people aren't going to play toward your character's strengths, they are going to play to your weakness. There are certain strategies and rules you seldom break against characters. Not everyone is playing against meta 1 Scorpion.

One of the main reasons Batman fell out of the top 10 is because he couldn't open people up for good damage. That was actually a valid argument.

What is this throw that does 21% you keep talking about?

 

[HeroesNZ]

Yea dude, it's called people playing against your character's weakness. It's called people who 'know the matchup'. When a matchup is grinded out people aren't going to play toward your character's strengths, they are going to play to your weakness. There are certain strategies and rules you seldom break against characters. Not everyone is playing against meta 1 Scorpion.

What is this throw that does 21% you keep talking about?

Throw -> EX Hellfire. A lot of the cast can't punish it with armour.

Let me get this straight. What you're saying is that when playing against Hellfire you shouldn't throw a projectile, jump in, NJP, pressure on wakeup, press buttons after Scorpion's D4/3/1 on hit, wakeup, use any sort of punishable 50/50, tick throw, press buttons after any plus on block FBC, armour out of anything, backdash, jump back, press buttons after standing 1 on block, press buttons after F3/114/D3/D1 on block, run in, and never try to tech a throw?

 

[Slips]

Throw -> EX Hellfire. A lot of the cast can't punish it with armour.

Let me get this straight. What you're saying is that when playing against Hellfire you shouldn't throw a projectile, jump in, NJP, pressure on wakeup, press buttons after Scorpion's D4/3/1 on hit, wakeup, use any sort of punishable 50/50, tick throw, press buttons after any plus on block FBC, armour out of anything, backdash, jump back, press buttons after standing 1 on block, press buttons after F3/114/D3/D1 on block, run in, and never try to tech a throw?

Dude, I didn't say don't play the game. I said play against his weaknesses. I didn't even say Hellfire was bad, I just think Ninjitsu is better.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Dude, I didn't say don't play the game. I said play against his weaknesses. I didn't even say Hellfire was bad, I just think Ninjitsu is better.

I know you didn't say that and I respect you guys' opinions. I think they're about even since both are more/less useful in different MUs it's just that I prefer Hellfire personally as a go-to variation. Anyway you said that Scorpion has no way of starting that combo so I gave a bunch of ways to get a hit.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I didn't B2 couldn't anti-air, I just said it was limited with the ranges that it could anti-air.

When I mentioned that they could delay wake up, it was because they can CONDITION you the agressor in this situation to no F2 on their wake up because you'll whiff and may get punished. If you wait and block, then that allows the opponent to react and hit you before you change your mind and f2. Also f2 timings on wake up can be strict.

B4 is never useful. Even if you blow up their wake up, you get know damage. I feel it's much better to go with the slower f2 because it's safe and more reward, but I if you can land b4 which I'm not saying is impossilbe, I just haven't seen it and it looked pretty punishable when I tested it, but since the new buff it may be of slight use on an opponent with an ARMORED reversal that is SLOWER than the gap that f2 cover, who CAN'T PUNISH it on block, and can't whiff punish in the event that they delay. I feel like the stars have to align for this move to be useful. But yes it does shut down wakes up that f2 cannot, it's just does little damage and come with the risk of being punished, but outside of the CAPS conditions, I feel it's pretty useless. Sick brutality though.

Just want to point those of the neutral tools that you highlighted in your 4th paragraph are universal to all variations.

My issue with Ninjutsu's neutral game is that if they block f2, they're in. D4 is good (universal). B2 is good for walking (baiting) and just whiff punishing in general (just have to be quick). B4 is not relevant in the neutral and njp is good but slow; I find that most times I have to already be in the air to air-air opponents jumping in.

Technically it doesn't destroy wake ups. It turns them into a mix up... Which they already were. Now it's great the we can essentially lock opponents into delaying, but don't have any really voretx. Everybody is going to block low and react to f4. We may be able to delay the b3 to catch some opponents, but focused players, I feel, are just going to comfirm it. It's true that we can grab on there delayed wake up, but so can a lot of characters. I recall that even hellfire had some aura set ups that made it so opponents could wake up.

My opinion on Ninjutsu is not that it's bad. Just medicore. Everything were meant to excel and comes with a big "but..." [F2 blows up wakes, but it whiffs on delayed opponents]. I feel like to be tournament characters have to be fast and consistent. I feel like nothing Ninjutsu has in it's game plan is "guranteed." You can't pressure your opponent (with ninjutsu specific options). All of the mix ups are fundamental and not that rewarding. I feel like with the exceptions of a few things Kung Jin was what Ninjutsu was suppose to look like, except for things like the dive kick, projectiles, etc.

you completely missed my point here, If ninjutsu gets more buffs he will become braindead, its up to the scorpion player to not suck at the use of the tools, definitely not a mediocre variation, here let me explain again in detail:

Is Ninjutsu really the best? B2 and F2 aren't consistent anti-airs. B2 moves forward which can lead you to whiff and get punished (limiting usage) and f2 can let opponents slip through vertically because the vertical hitboxes do not linger.

My previous answer:
"Scorpion Anti-airs with B1 outside of B2 range, and trip guards with ex teleports on same range when he can't run under them"

I didn't B2 couldn't anti-air, I just said it was limited with the ranges that it could anti-air.

You still don't get it, in order to B2 someone outside of the air you need to know which is the minimal distance and which one is max one, when the opponent breaches that range where is B2 hitbox do not linger, this is where B1 and ex teleport becomes available, besides you still have J3 which is a 6f air to air move that will anti-air 11 frames more faster than B2 on reaction, F2 is not an AA tool, is a whiff punishing tool

When I mentioned that they could delay wake up, it was because they can CONDITION you the agressor in this situation to no F2 on their wake up because you'll whiff and may get punished. If you wait and block, then that allows the opponent to react and hit you before you change your mind and f2. Also f2 timings on wake up can be strict.

Doesn't matter, job well done, ever heard about spacing? A player that delays wakeup to condition you to F2 its because he already read your tendencies and can tell you like to F2 a lot because they know that you know. No one will press a button out of a delayed wakeup against a spaced scorpion, the whole point of ninjutsu is his range with disjointed hitboxes, so in certain situations there is not hit trades, unless you spaced bad against it.

B4 is never useful. Even if you blow up their wake up, you get know damage. I feel it's much better to go with the slower f2 because it's safe and more reward, but I if you can land b4 which I'm not saying is impossilbe, I just haven't seen it and it looked pretty punishable when I tested it, but since the new buff it may be of slight use on an opponent with an ARMORED reversal that is SLOWER than the gap that f2 cover, who CAN'T PUNISH it on block, and can't whiff punish in the event that they delay. I feel like the stars have to align for this move to be useful. But yes it does shut down wakes up that f2 cannot, it's just does little damage and come with the risk of being punished, but outside of the CAPS conditions, I feel it's pretty useless. Sick brutality though.

B4 is a tool to punish wakeups F2 doesn't punish in time, simpler as that, if you keep getting hit out of your F2 on wakeups its because you don't use B4, I dunno what you're trying to explain here, first you say B4 sucks because is punishable on block, then you say you prefer us F2 because is safe, but before you said its mediocre because according to you, your opponent can condition you to F2 or not F2 into a guess bait, which you said works better on the opponents favor, which i think is bullshit, you have the knockdown advantage, your only options are not F2, or wait them to delay wakeup and F2, the more the opponent thinks he can play around with you on okizeme, the more he fail to get into your head, the more he will buries himself.

Technically it doesn't destroy wake ups. It turns them into a mix up... Which they already were. Now it's great the we can essentially lock opponents into delaying, but don't have any really voretx. Everybody is going to block low and react to f4. We may be able to delay the b3 to catch some opponents, but focused players, I feel, are just going to comfirm it. It's true that we can grab on there delayed wake up, but so can a lot of characters. I recall that even hellfire had some aura set ups that made it so opponents could wake up.

Point tak3n, ninjutsu sucks because doesn't have a real vortex, well guess what, Ninjutsu its not about risking yourself with vortexes, its not about making them guess with low or overheads.
Yeah, Block low and react to overhead? Sure, now tech a throw, oh wait, did i said tech a throw? oops, sorry should've said, that i would walk backwards after slightly intentionaly walk forward, just to make you think i will going to throw, so you can press a button to tech my throw, and i can finally whiff punish you with the F2 you worked so hard to avoid while grounded. And thats one of the many options ninjutsu has on knockdown without being "F2 if wakeup, or he is delaying, now i wait him to stand and poke me out of my advantage"
"This is how Ninjutsu plays as i said on the previous quote: Ninjutsu wins by making YOU pressing buttons, in order to win in fighting games, YOU need to press buttons, that is how the struggle comes against Ninjutsu."

Just want to point those of the neutral tools that you highlighted in your 4th paragraph are universal to all variations.

Pretty sure their are, but here is something to consider, do Inferno and Hellfire, have a 15 frames ranged attack that doesn't trade after extreme conditioning space and reach further with the capability of breaking an armor atempt if you input after scorpion? Do Inferno and Hellfire have an B2 that can punish nearly halfscreen for anything with recovery longer than 20 frames on reaction?
Do Hellfire and Inferno can condition other opponents to not press a button after constantly being poked with these tools?
No man, they do not, that is why the meta of ninjutsu is different from his other variations, the neutral is different, the oki is different, he approach in general is different even on standing resets.

My issue with Ninjutsu's neutral game is that if they block f2, they're in. D4 is good (universal). B2 is good for walking (baiting) and just whiff punishing in general (just have to be quick). B4 is not relevant in the neutral and njp is good but slow; I find that most times I have to already be in the air to air-air opponents jumping in.

I understand your struggle, just don't forget that F2 max ranged can only be punished by a 10f fast traveling projectile, like Sub-Zero's slide on reversal, any other move that is 12 to up will not reach scorpion, because you have that little thing named teleport cancel, that will end up behind anyone who just made a huge commitment to get in and punish scorpion just get a wtf face and be like "eh, where the fuck did he go?"

My opinion on Ninjutsu is not that it's bad. Just medicore. Everything were meant to excel and comes with a big "but..." [F2 blows up wakes, but it whiffs on delayed opponents]. I feel like to be tournament characters have to be fast and consistent. I feel like nothing Ninjutsu has in it's game plan is "guranteed." You can't pressure your opponent (with ninjutsu specific options). All of the mix ups are fundamental and not that rewarding. I feel like with the exceptions of a few things Kung Jin was what Ninjutsu was suppose to look like, except for things like the dive kick, projectiles, etc.

No problem there man, that is your opinion, when i started to play scorpion, Hellfire and Ninjutsu in particular, i felt that the reason i lost most of the time was because i wasn't rewarded with the oportunities i got, which was damage, there wasn't a particular reason for my opponents to respect my threats because Ninjutsu used to scale way too much damage.
Post patch everything changed, i honestly ive been saying that post patch Ninjutsu may be his best variation, a lot of people will disagree with that or as you are currently telling, that his options are mediocre, there is a common denominator there, most of the recent ninjutsu players are still trying to play Ninjutsu as they play Hellfire or Inferno. If you see @OutworldKeith he is a Ninjutsu main every since day 1, he knows as well as we struggle without the damage needed.

If you are in need of help concerning the neutral or the oki game, just let me know, also, show me some videos, i haven't been uploaded in a good time, because i borrowed my MKX and PS4 so a friend can lvl up a bit, but it seems i did it on a bad week, my do to list with TYM is growing rapidly.

 

[Scoot Magee]

This pretty much sums up our difference right here. If your opponent knows the mu, they won't give you anything but throw and f2. They won't do anything punishable, they won't get hit by j3, they won't get hit by b3. They'll stay grounded and work their way around d4 which isn't hard for some characters. The worst that can happen is eating a f2 or throw.

I'm not trying to say Scorpion isn't good. But this is a weakness for sure.

I'll keep working with him but this is a hurdle I have yet to overcome.

Most of my damage comes from somebody trying to escape a throw or press a button. Honestly I get to the point where I just throw repeatedly until I think they're going to do something. It works but a lot of other characters have much easier and more threatening ways to open people up.

 

[Fred Marvel]

how do you get over ninjutsu having no zoning tools and no really good mixups? those two are what stop me from playing it, seems impossible to open someone up unless you really get in since his new footsie tools are both mid, sweep is good but -16

if f4 could just be a little faster and he was a LITTLE less negative that would help alot

 

[Eddy Wang]

how do you get over ninjutsu having no zoning tools and no really good mixups? those two are what stop me from playing it, seems impossible to open someone up unless you really get in since his new footsie tools are both mid, sweep is good but -16

if f4 could just be a little faster and he was a LITTLE less negative that would help alot

you make them press buttons.

 

[Slips]

Most of my damage comes from somebody trying to escape a throw or press a button. Honestly I get to the point where I just throw repeatedly until I think they're going to do something. It works but a lot of other characters have much easier and more threatening ways to open people up.

Yea, I think I just need to get over the fact Hellfire Scorp isn't as much of a 50/50 character as I thought initially, which is fine. I still love playing Hellfire, it's so much more fun hitting all those buttons.

 

[Fred Marvel]

you make them press buttons.

how?

 

[wa_black]

you completely missed my point here, If ninjutsu gets more buffs he will become braindead, its up to the scorpion player to not suck at the use of the tools, definitely not a mediocre variation, here let me explain again in detail:


My previous answer:
"Scorpion Anti-airs with B1 outside of B2 range, and trip guards with ex teleports on same range when he can't run under them"


You still don't get it, in order to B2 someone outside of the air you need to know which is the minimal distance and which one is max one, when the opponent breaches that range where is B2 hitbox do not linger, this is where B1 and ex teleport becomes available, besides you still have J3 which is a 6f air to air move that will anti-air 11 frames more faster than B2 on reaction, F2 is not an AA tool, is a whiff punishing tool



Doesn't matter, job well done, ever heard about spacing? A player that delays wakeup to condition you to F2 its because he already read your tendencies and can tell you like to F2 a lot because they know that you know. No one will press a button out of a delayed wakeup against a spaced scorpion, the whole point of ninjutsu is his range with disjointed hitboxes, so in certain situations there is not hit trades, unless you spaced bad against it.



B4 is a tool to punish wakeups F2 doesn't punish in time, simpler as that, if you keep getting hit out of your F2 on wakeups its because you don't use B4, I dunno what you're trying to explain here, first you say B4 sucks because is punishable on block, then you say you prefer us F2 because is safe, but before you said its mediocre because according to you, your opponent can condition you to F2 or not F2 into a guess bait, which you said works better on the opponents favor, which i think is bullshit, you have the knockdown advantage, your only options are not F2, or wait them to delay wakeup and F2, the more the opponent thinks he can play around with you on okizeme, the more he fail to get into your head, the more he will buries himself.


Point tak3n, ninjutsu sucks because doesn't have a real vortex, well guess what, Ninjutsu its not about risking yourself with vortexes, its not about making them guess with low or overheads.
Yeah, Block low and react to overhead? Sure, now tech a throw, oh wait, did i said tech a throw? oops, sorry should've said, that i would walk backwards after slightly intentionaly walk forward, just to make you think i will going to throw, so you can press a button to tech my throw, and i can finally whiff punish you with the F2 you worked so hard to avoid while grounded. And thats one of the many options ninjutsu has on knockdown without being "F2 if wakeup, or he is delaying, now i wait him to stand and poke me out of my advantage"
"This is how Ninjutsu plays as i said on the previous quote: Ninjutsu wins by making YOU pressing buttons, in order to win in fighting games, YOU need to press buttons, that is how the struggle comes against Ninjutsu."



Pretty sure their are, but here is something to consider, do Inferno and Hellfire, have a 15 frames ranged attack that doesn't trade after extreme conditioning space and reach further with the capability of breaking an armor atempt if you input after scorpion? Do Inferno and Hellfire have an B2 that can punish nearly halfscreen for anything with recovery longer than 20 frames on reaction?
Do Hellfire and Inferno can condition other opponents to not press a button after constantly being poked with these tools?
No man, they do not, that is why the meta of ninjutsu is different from his other variations, the neutral is different, the oki is different, he approach in general is different even on standing resets.



I understand your struggle, just don't forget that F2 max ranged can only be punished by a 10f fast traveling projectile, like Sub-Zero's slide on reversal, any other move that is 12 to up will not reach scorpion, because you have that little thing named teleport cancel, that will end up behind anyone who just made a huge commitment to get in and punish scorpion just get a wtf face and be like "eh, where the fuck did he go?"



No problem there man, that is your opinion, when i started to play scorpion, Hellfire and Ninjutsu in particular, i felt that the reason i lost most of the time was because i wasn't rewarded with the oportunities i got, which was damage, there wasn't a particular reason for my opponents to respect my threats because Ninjutsu used to scale way too much damage.
Post patch everything changed, i honestly ive been saying that post patch Ninjutsu may be his best variation, a lot of people will disagree with that or as you are currently telling, that his options are mediocre, there is a common denominator there, most of the recent ninjutsu players are still trying to play Ninjutsu as they play Hellfire or Inferno. If you see @OutworldKeith he is a Ninjutsu main every since day 1, he knows as well as we struggle without the damage needed.

If you are in need of help concerning the neutral or the oki game, just let me know, also, show me some videos, i haven't been uploaded in a good time, because i borrowed my MKX and PS4 so a friend can lvl up a bit, but it seems i did it on a bad week, my do to list with TYM is growing rapidly.

Never said he needed buffs. Though I do think that he does. There are buffs that he could get that would not make him braindead. What makes Ninjustu better than hellfire?

By mediocre I mean that he's nothing special. He has what I like to call void mix-ups; that's when a characters lacks something, so they're forced to used fundamental mix-ups like grab and attack; something everybody can do. You can d4 and mix up run and grab, something everyone can do. There are things that Ninjutsu can do, but it just sounds like we're scraping the barrel for options where other characters and variations just have those tools available. Not to say his bad because of this, but fat chance winning because of this.

On the topic of the neutral. Ninjutsu, not Scorpion, has 4 tools that can be used in the neutral. Anything out side of those can be used by Scorps other variations. With that said, B2 is great for long distance whiff punishes, and because there is a range where it can be safe versus some characters, you can keep your opponent honest. f2 is the better whiff punisher, but b2 can react to people jumping back os back dashes and, depending on the range, react to nj's. F2 prevents the opponent from armoring. It doesn't keep them out because once blocked they can get in range and force you backwards. Not ideal since the point of the neutral is maintaining position. Though njp looks like a good anti air, it's speed makes it more suited for keep opponents out. B4 just shouldn't be used in the neutral. So with this being my perception of Ninjutu's neutral can you explain to me where my logic is flawed and how he actually excels?

What if player just decide to take the throw everytime? That's 12% percent them into a set up for another 12% until we go for something else. If they open us up once, we'll take the damage of about 3 throws. If they block f2 or the b3 string, they can start playing again. If they were to just take throws we'd have to have an impeccable neutral.

Look if we get a Ninjutsu in a top 8 major, I'll shut up, but that's a lot of reads that have to be made. Don't get me wrong this is my main. I want him to do well. I pray that slips will actually use him in tournament and maybe inspire others to follow suit, but with how these things normally go, Ninjutsu players will lose a match and go to Hellfire, a top tier, or anybody else. That's normally what happens with characters of Ninjutsu's caliber. Competitive players aren't fond of Ninjutsu like characters since they don't offer the best chances of winning. So yeah pick ninjutsu if you want to play street fighter, but your better off picking a good character rather than a solid one if you want to win some money; I feel that's the mentality.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

how do you get over ninjutsu having no zoning tools and no really good mixups? those two are what stop me from playing it, seems impossible to open someone up unless you really get in since his new footsie tools are both mid, sweep is good but -16

if f4 could just be a little faster and he was a LITTLE less negative that would help alot

lol wow

 

[Slips]

After discussing some things in this thread and thinking about it I'm gonna adjust Hellfire's offense to a 4 and Inferno's defense to a 2. Good points made by my fellow Shirai Ryu bretheren.

OP edited.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Never said he needed buffs. Though I do think that he does. There are buffs that he could get that would not make him braindead. What makes Ninjustu better than hellfire?

By mediocre I mean that he's nothing special. He has what I like to call void mix-ups; that's when a characters lacks something, so they're forced to used fundamental mix-ups like grab and attack; something everybody can do. You can d4 and mix up run and grab, something everyone can do. There are things that Ninjutsu can do, but it just sounds like we're scraping the barrel for options where other characters and variations just have those tools available. Not to say his bad because of this, but fat chance winning because of this.

On the topic of the neutral. Ninjutsu, not Scorpion, has 4 tools that can be used in the neutral. Anything out side of those can be used by Scorps other variations. With that said, B2 is great for long distance whiff punishes, and because there is a range where it can be safe versus some characters, you can keep your opponent honest. f2 is the better whiff punisher, but b2 can react to people jumping back os back dashes and, depending on the range, react to nj's. F2 prevents the opponent from armoring. It doesn't keep them out because once blocked they can get in range and force you backwards. Not ideal since the point of the neutral is maintaining position. Though njp looks like a good anti air, it's speed makes it more suited for keep opponents out. B4 just shouldn't be used in the neutral. So with this being my perception of Ninjutu's neutral can you explain to me where my logic is flawed and how he actually excels?

What if player just decide to take the throw everytime? That's 12% percent them into a set up for another 12% until we go for something else. If they open us up once, we'll take the damage of about 3 throws. If they block f2 or the b3 string, they can start playing again. If they were to just take throws we'd have to have an impeccable neutral.

Look if we get a Ninjutsu in a top 8 major, I'll shut up, but that's a lot of reads that have to be made. Don't get me wrong this is my main. I want him to do well. I pray that slips will actually use him in tournament and maybe inspire others to follow suit, but with how these things normally go, Ninjutsu players will lose a match and go to Hellfire, a top tier, or anybody else. That's normally what happens with characters of Ninjutsu's caliber. Competitive players aren't fond of Ninjutsu like characters since they don't offer the best chances of winning. So yeah pick ninjutsu if you want to play street fighter, but your better off picking a good character rather than a solid one if you want to win some money; I feel that's the mentality.

You didn't need to say he need buffs, i clearly read your thoughts through your posts, its not like i put words in your mouth anyway.
I know how ninjutsu works, i know what the 4 tools are, Ninjutsu can deal 35% damage off of every read of a whiff punishing into a standing reset that you can net more damage or counter, how is that a lot of reads? You make two reads, or 2 punishes and the round is over unless they choose to break. Why would i run for a throw? I've been telling you multiple times, Ninjutsu walks more than runs, stop trying to apply hellfire's logic on ninjutsu, you don't have a 15f jumping overhead that will condition ppl to block off of a d4 on ht.


I don't understand, you seem to assume everyone has a very linear type of game, i don't play in US indeed so my tournament win with Ninjutsu post patch means nothing and is irrelevant. Well i will just leave it to your problems.

 

[Fred Marvel]

lol wow

?

 

[wa_black]

how?

You didn't need to say he need buffs, i clearly read your thoughts through your posts, its not like i put words in your mouth anyway.
I know how ninjutsu works, i know what the 4 tools are, Ninjutsu can deal 35% damage off of every read of a whiff punishing into a standing reset that you can net more damage or counter, how is that a lot of reads? You make two reads, or 2 punishes and the round is over unless they choose to break. Why would i run for a throw? I've been telling you multiple times, Ninjutsu walks more than runs, stop trying to apply hellfire's logic on ninjutsu, you don't have a 15f jumping overhead that will condition ppl to block off of a d4 on ht.


I don't understand, you seem to assume everyone has a very linear type of game, i don't play in US indeed so my tournament win with Ninjutsu post patch means nothing and is irrelevant. Well i will just leave it to your problems.

We'll see how he does in tournament. If he makes it.

 

[Spooky Deadeye]

Hellfire all the way for me.