Question - A-List Should a list be nerfed

[OutworldKeith]

i'm curious as to what meterburn cancels frames are do you know them?

Frame data isn't the be-all & end-all B. Lol

 

[omooba]

Frame data isn't the be-all & end-all B. Lol

what happened to your "ragequit i'm not talking to you fuckoutahere" episode?

 

[OutworldKeith]

fireballs can be interrupted and low profiled and have too much pushback for anything except f3, so they can backdash or armour. Also it doesn't fly you 3/4screen and sit u right next to them.

b12 for liu is way better than 12 for breaking armour and also can be low profiled. On wakeup jc cant just do 12 like liu can do b12 cause its a high.

12 rc has nowhere near as much chip as lius strings.

f44 obviously isn't better than f3 but with alllll your options your space control/footsies is just as good.

taleda d'vora both high tier and get destroyed by liu

You say you play both of them, your lack of knowledge on cage is shockingly bad for someone you play so im guna stop this argument as you clearly don't know the character. Sorry to be a dick about it.

He doesn't play Cage at all. He's a Kang downplayer. He's just afraid because he knows the nerf hammer is coming for Kang.

 

[OutworldKeith]

what happened to your "ragequit i'm not talking to you fuckoutahere" episode?

I had a moment B, it happens.

Just stop downplaying B. It's so easy.

 

[Death]

A list is fine. I do see a lot of downplaying in here tho. A list is a lot like DF where its going to take a while to use him at full potential. The only nerf I think would be just is when you whiff a f3 you cannot cancel out of it. If d4 gets nerfed like a lot of people want then rip fisticuffs and SD. It would just hurt those vars more than a lists

 

[omooba]

He doesn't play Cage at all. He's a Kang downplayer. He's just afraid because he knows the nerf hammer is coming for Kang.

i'll tell you what i told everyone who said i'm a kang downplayer. every thread where i've talked about kang i've used the word 'nasty' or 'disgusting'. just cus i think johnny should be nerfed doesn't mean i don't think kang should be nerfed. kang shouldn't have a guaranteed b1 after flying kick he should be neutral and johnny shouldn't be able to cancel f3 on whiff making it easier for you to bait and punish it. i've literally never said liu isn't that good or anything like that which is something i've said about every other the character i think is in top 10

 

[Wigy]

A list is fine. I do see a lot of downplaying in here tho. A list is a lot like DF where its going to take a while to use him at full potential. The only nerf I think would be just is when you whiff a f3 you cannot cancel out of it. If d4 gets nerfed like a lot of people want then rip fisticuffs and SD. It would just hurt those vars more than a lists

I would be happy for this to happen, provided other characters (liu) got more serious nerfs

 

[DrFolmer]

I've always said Johnny is A+, but I've recently come to the conclusion that he is indeed an S-tier character IF executed with perfection - Johnny has all the tools to win, not necesarily the best tools in every situation, but his pros definitely outweigh the cons.

As for the Liu Kang (DF)/A-list comparison - I have played a lot of games with a decent DF who can jail the loops most of the time (I blow him up with armor sometimes, but mostly on a b1 cancel) and it's in Liu's favor. The thing is, Liu doesn't have to play footsies - flying kick eliminates footsies by being a mid while also being + on block. Not a huge advantage for Kang IMO, but here's my point - Liu zones better, period. Even with a life lead, Johnny has to be careful with zoning due to Liu being able to low profile force balls mid screen (he can only win trades full screen due to the forceball arc). The pressure game is pretty much equal though IMO, the guy who gets stuck in the corner with no meter is fucked either way. Liu just seems to have considerably more options outside of the pressure (while also having better pressure due to infinite loops as opposed to stamina reliant pressure).

I've seen Slayer poke Zyphox out of flying kicks but it's not really a reaction - it's more of a hard read, and they usually come with risks.

And honestly, Kang downplayers keep talking about how good d4 is - let's not forget about the d3 that's actually + on block and low profiles like a baws. The only nerf Liu needs is being neutral on mb flying kick - NEUTRAL, not at a disadvantage. Liu still has options if this is the case. Let him keep the plus frames.
As for Johnny, I wouldn't nerf him - but I'm kinda biased, but I wouldn't be too upset if they took away the f34 cancel. This would force Johnny to play his footsies a little more careful due to the risk of being whiff punished, and he still gets to keep his f3 SKRC that jails into whatever shit he chooses to do.

Just my two cents fellas

 

[omooba]

infinite loops

feel like this is thrown around too loosely

 

[DrFolmer]

feel like this is thrown around too loosely

It's not meant like "oh shit he touched me omg might as well ragequit" (except if you're Kenshi) . It's more the fact that Liu pressure don't really end. Liu is always plus, but his options are kinda predictable (still plenty of options and fancy mixups) when he reaches no stamina, and if he decides to commit to other strings than f213 he's at less advantage. But Liu can regain his stamina while also staying plus.

 

[THTB]

A list is fine. I do see a lot of downplaying in here tho. A list is a lot like DF where its going to take a while to use him at full potential. The only nerf I think would be just is when you whiff a f3 you cannot cancel out of it. If d4 gets nerfed like a lot of people want then rip fisticuffs and SD. It would just hurt those vars more than a lists

Now watch you not get blown up for this like I did lol.

 

[Orbit Aquary]

Saying Cage needs nerfs is probably even funnier than saying Sonya is below S tier.

 

[lilyunggrabbagjr]

you can be as good as you are but really need to commit to jc to see his shortcomings.

I would like see dizzy djt or eddie discuss this. I doubt you can have a full enough understanding to say hes broken or fucked up.

My 2 cents. I never see anybody who actually plays jc say hes broken or top.

As well as people not playing jc to his potential, a lot of people are not playing the matchup AGAINST him properly he gets away with 113 skc and like you said the 113 f2 mixups.

Not to mention you can option select a lot of his pressure with armour like tanya

Cheap Eddie just said the character was broke lol

 

[RyuKazuya]

many people kust cry for nerfs instead of adapting or improving. Damn it !
i mean yes johnny is good! Very good on full potential. BUT.... He is not broken since he can be outplayed. It depends on the player. Crying for nerfs just proofs lazynes and scrubby attitude.

What happened to those days where people said like " dayumn this shit is broke! imma still find a way!! "
Shout outs to ST and UMK3

 

[Dizzy]

ok so i have a converter which has a turbo button and i did the meterburn kick and set it to spam b1 jillion times and johnny's d1 8 frames beat it everytime. not trade just beat it. idk if netherrealm is lying or my equipment is fucked up but this is how i always test stuff that require timing.
have you tried this for yourself?
johnny's d3 10 frames trades and his d4 11 frames get's beat.
again i'm using turbo mode i've tried this with 2 converters. 1 the brooke converter and 2 the xcm cross fire converter. sooo yeah idk

edit:i tried with liu's d1(9frames) instead of b1. d1 trades with johnny's 8frames. so i think the game is lying on b1's frames and probably mb flying kick's frames test it yourself

Your recording of the LK block string was not done correct. People unfamiliar with proper testing often say things like this, but the hardest part of testing block strings is doing them properly, meaning of the first frame possible.

Also Cage and a few other characters with 8f fastest moves can use a low profile (D4 in Cage's case) to avoid b1 and poke out. The obvious issue with this however if he does F44 after MB Flying Kick you're going to eat a big combo if he has a bar or at least get put into a standing reset for him to do the loop again. This also would result in an advantaged trade for LK if you tried to D1.

Just to clarify.

 

[smokey]

I would say its always in Lius favour anywhere on the screen unless he has his back to the corner and no meter. If he is in neutral he can d3 basically anything while still throwing out low fireballs, f44 is just a small run away and cant be low profiled, and you cant jump on him because his uppercut and trip guards do wonders against cages jump speed/arc.

Cage doesnt have many losing matchups at all but against characters where you cant abuse d4 and f3 you just dont have a way to gain control and keep it. Neutral against Liu can be a nightmare, and once he is in theres pretty much no reason for him to get off you. People talk about the gaps in the strings ,Cage being able to poke etc but there is no risk to Liu to just block your poke and go straight back into his game, so that theory is only as bad as the Liu Kang player wants it to be. If cage is opening liu up with anything except a whiff punish f3 or a throw while you are jailed then they are doing something wrong, the match only has to take place outside d4 range where liu wins or in cages face, where liu wins, and theres not a lot Cage gets to do to change that.

 

[Wigy]

If people want cages f3 to not be able to rc on whiff, f34 needs to be safe on block; he has no multi hitting advancing strings apart from f2 which is slow and has meh range.

He will REALLY stuggle in certain matchups if he doesn't have a safe on block way to get in at all. Lol

The 4 in f34 is pretty slow so gap would be hella whiff punishable anyway

 

[EMPR_MURK]

333 and f24 should have less cancel advantage imo. Mostly f24. I think making f24 skrc plus 9 wouldn't hurt much. It currently jails into f3 which already jails into everything (not too sure about f2 or b3 so please correct me if im wrong).

Since f24 is johnny's only true combo starter, i think it should be more of a mind game. 1,2 can break a good amount of armor, so adjusting the cancel advantage of f24 to compliment 12's armor breaking properties would also be a solid fix imo...

But f24 currently jailing into f3 is too free and johnny doesn't need that lol.

 

[Asodimazze]

333 and f24 should have less cancel advantage imo. Mostly f24

Why? Everyday one new nerf request pops up lol

While you guys think about other ways to nerf johnny, @Killer Xinok is the only Cage in top 32 at kit. Good luck dude!

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Why? Everyday one new nerf request pops up lol

While you guys think about other ways to nerf johnny, @Killer Xinok is the only Cage in top 32 at kit. Good luck dude!

I added to the post so read it again...

Also forever king jr is in top 32...winners

 

[ismael4790]

do people still play fisticuffs?

I do it because I'm a stupid loyalist, and I love the variation, but if you want to win you can't only play him. Currently, he's trash.
Let's hope the next patch changes that.

 

[Asodimazze]

@EMPR_MURK jailing with f24skrc into f3 is super hard, you have to be frame perfect...1 frame too late and the opponent can armor out.. If someone is able to do it 100% of the time props to him, I can't.

Anyway, if they nerfed it to your suggested +9 it would change almost nothing because one could do f24skrc, 12 (1) rc and still be +13. Nothing changes, if you are frame perfect it still jails.

isn't Liu Kang f44 rc +9? Since you are concerned about Cage f24, Is it fair for a top 5 character like Liu Kang to be this plus and keep on jailing after his low combo starter?

*didn't know forever king jr played johnny, that's great. Looking forward to see his matches

 

[EMPR_MURK]

@EMPR_MURK jailing with f24skrc into f3 is super hard, you have to be frame perfect...1 frame too late and the opponent can armor out.. If someone is able to do it 100% of the time props to him, I can't.

Anyway, if they nerfed it to your suggested +9 it would change almost nothing because one could do f24skrc, 12 (1) rc and still be +13. Nothing changes, if you are frame perfect it still jails.

isn't Liu Kang f44 rc +9? Since you are concerned about Cage f24, Is it fair for a top 5 character like Liu Kang to be this plus and keep on jailing after his low combo starter?

*didn't know forever king jr played johnny, that's great. Looking forward to see his matches

F44 fbrc only jails into standing one and f1 which both are highs and making s1 jail is tough so please save me that execution bs bruh...and yes it is possible to make it jail by spending meter on the cancel.

Johnny only jailing into his s1 after f24 skrc presents a problem to u, why?

 

[EMPR_MURK]

@EMPR_MURK jailing with f24skrc into f3 is super hard, you have to be frame perfect...1 frame too late and the opponent can armor out.. If someone is able to do it 100% of the time props to him, I can't.

Anyway, if they nerfed it to your suggested +9 it would change almost nothing because one could do f24skrc, 12 (1) rc and still be +13. Nothing changes, if you are frame perfect it still jails.

isn't Liu Kang f44 rc +9? Since you are concerned about Cage f24, Is it fair for a top 5 character like Liu Kang to be this plus and keep on jailing after his low combo starter?

*didn't know forever king jr played johnny, that's great. Looking forward to see his matches

Not to mention he already has 333 and b34 jailing into f3 as well...so basically what you're saying is that you want every other string (excluding 12, 114, and f3) to jail into f3???

 

[Asodimazze]

Not to mention he already has 333 and b34 jailing into f3 as well...so basically what you're saying is that you want every other string (excluding 12, 114, and f3) to jail into f3???

If they nerf him I will probably deal with it, I just don't see any reason for that since there are many characters who are surely better. Why would you want to nerf Johnny when he is not top tier? wasn't enough to ruin fisticuff?

It's also hilarious that at the same time you downplay liu kang lmao