Strategy - Sub-Zero Predator V Sub Zero - MKX's First Death

[DarksydeDash]

Did anyone even notice UB gets no meter for parrying projectiles?

 

[infamy23]

Predator has the third worst wake up in the game?

Summoner and Sorcerer Quan have NONE and Quan is arguably top 3 for his toolset.

I watched @Pig Of The Hut vs Crosby87 the other night and pig can tell you how he felt after playing against him.

Not really seeing your point. I said 3rd worst. Quan and Tremor are worse.

And obviously having bad wakeup doesn't make a character bad, but we can't pretend like Predator is better than SZ in every single way when SZ's wakeup is infinitely better than Predator's.

Only time will tell if Predator's toolset is strong enough to compensate for the fact that he can't get out of the corner.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Tremor's move list was leaked almost three weeks before the official release. People identified one full screen unblockable attack, one short-ranged projectile, and three long-ranged projectiles as universal special moves. The logical assumption was Tremor was going to be a zoning character in some way, shape, or form, but unfortunately he fits no character archetype. The character is so abysmal players are still uncertain about the best way to use him.

Speaking of DLC, Predator is only two weeks older than Tremor in terms of the release date. You have apparently acquired adequate knowledge of Predator to presume he entirely invalidates Sub Zero in all variations while simultaneously you know that Tremor has potential in Crystalline. I actually do not question your knowledge, only your hypocrisy. You tell me I am wrong about Tremor, a character who is one week old, but you state that Sub Zero is invalidated by Predator, a character who is three weeks old.

I would also like to know how you keep a positive image with some of this bullshit that you post. Let us be serious here. If Tom Brady had created this thread, a lot of posts would have been malicious. If I had created a thread that claimed Kano is officially "dead" and invalidated by Predator, one person would suggest I commit suicide, at least three haters would demand I be excluded from the Kombat Tomb Podcast, and countless others would state I only want "broken" zoning.

Honestly, I can't give you an answer on why my reputation for looking at NRS games is generally respected, that isn't up to me to decide. I do get challenged on my opinions a lot, and so I should, and I except to to be, I don't expect everyone to agree with it, that would be "foolish", wouldn't it? Although in one paragraph you say you don't question my knowledge, which you do, but you then go on to call it "bullshit" a few paragraphs down, so I don't know man.

All I did with Sub Zero was compare the "archetypes" (the word of the month), and ask why would anyone play Sub Zero when they can play Predator? a clearly superior character for that play style, and you have said this yourself before, why play an average zoner when you can play hands down the best zoner in the game. So my view was, sub zero is redundant, and NRS have the ability to change a character with a tweek, such as Tempest, he is a totally different character compared to his first few weeks, he went from a 4 frame spin defensive, no offence character, to the most well rounded character in the game.

I didn't ask for buffs, I didn't ask for nerfs, I just called something I seen.

Also, for the record, I agree with you on Tremors zoning being terrible, lets get that straight. I just think its too early to tell if he is totally useless as he has some other things, he could hang in the ranks of Kotal, Kenshi etc and win games, while predator on the other hand is clearly by design fucking unbelievable and removes the skill factor from certain knockdowns, which can open anyone up (Hunter), while his zoning is brilliant and gives anyone a run for their money, if you disagree with that, then I guess we just disagree.

 

[UsedForGlue]

The issue with Liu is his fire balls on reflect or party allow him to recovery instantly. So he can actually chain them because for some reason parries and reflects give him on hit recovery instead of on block.

Kung Lao can also do this with Buzz Saw.

 

[WATCHD0G]

Worst variation in the game? High tech Jacqui pls

seriously though...what the fuck is that variation?

 

[Slips]

A few things to play devil's advocate here.

1) Is Sub's d4 really worse than Predator's? To me it's just different because of the pros and cons. Sub's d4 is much safer on block and whiff and I think that needs to be said. Predator's d4 has more range and has better priority, but it's also very unsafe. Only triple beam variation can it be made safe. And even then characters with fast advancing armor can punish it.

2) Why are we comparing Traps to Clones? They aren't the same. Sub's clone is a defensive tool to try and catch people going in on him in footsies. He can then interact with clone by shattering it or throwing it as well. It's one of the most unique tools in the game. Trap is more of a space control tool. It a) doesn't come out nearly as fast as clone, b) doesn't activate as fast as clone c) can't interact with clone like Sub Zero can. The pros for Trap is that it can be thrown anywhere on the screen and that he can do it in the air as well.

I don't see how Predator's Traps negate Sub's clones when they serve completely different purposes towards their respective designs.

3) Unbreakable's parry is another completely unique move in the game that should be a pro compared to anything Predator has instead of a con. Predator does not have a parry period. Why are we acting like Sub's parry is a bad thing to have? Why is it being compared to armor? They are two completely different tools. One takes meter to launch (and this varies depending on the armor move we are comparing the parry to) and the other doesn't. You are wanting parry to also parry jump attacks? And why don't you show a video of Sub doing f42 cancelled into parry instead of doing f42 raw and then doing a parry after the string fully recovers? That's when the parry will work against faster attacks after f42.

4) Unbreakable's Frozen Aura is different than Predator's Stealth. It's actually probably just straight up better. Stealth reduces chip and the ex version negates chip. Sub Zero's Frozen Aura negates chip and the ex version negates chip and takes reduced damage. So Sub gets what Predator gets without the use of meter and when he spends meter he gains something Predator doesn't even have. Frozen Aura has better startup and recovery than Predator's stealth as well. Besides Predator being harder to see, this is a better version of Predator's stealth.

5) I'm not sure why we are acting like Predator's armor is better than Sub's. Predator cannot wake-up against some characters and is forced to eat pressure and mixups. This is not a problem for Sub because of armored slide. It could be argued that Predator's armor is better for anti-zoning because of the damage he gets on a read, but I think it needs to be said that Sub does much better to get around zoning naturally anyway because of how good slide is for closing the gap on whiff. Plus Sub Zero has much better walk speed and run than Predator.

 

[Slips]

I'm not saying Sub is better than Predator or just as good as Predator. I'm just saying not all the pros and cons are being presented as to what each character brings to the table.

Saying Predator is the same design as Sub Zero but just better in every way is crazy. They have different sets of tools and they work differently in the games meta from eachother. Maybe Sub needs buffs, but using Predator to justify them isn't an argument that holds water imo because the character's design function is completely different.

 

[WATCHD0G]

the more i see threads like this the more i just wish NRS does that massive patch they did with injustice.....but better to have that a little later when all the bullshit has been revealed.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Tremor is for sure not bad like I have seen many say on this site lmao, shouldn't have to pull this card but play DJTs tremor and u tell me if he is a unviable character

 

[infamy23]

Aaaaand now hundreds of people will miraculously change their opinion on Tremor

 

[PND OmegaK]

Tremor is for sure not bad like I have seen many say on this site lmao, shouldn't have to pull this card but play DJTs tremor and u tell me if he is a unviable character

Most people think he is decent at worst, the only people who don't are m2dave and his clan of goons.

Shoutouts to the post above me.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Guys stop, Predator's getting nerfed lol

It doesn't matter if he does, that's not the point. We are not crying about Predator, I say let him be for a while longer before "fixing him".

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Aaaaand now hundreds of people will miraculously change their opinion on Tremor

Oh they definitely will if they play him, trust me on that

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Tremor is for sure not bad like I have seen many say on this site lmao, shouldn't have to pull this card but play DJTs tremor and u tell me if he is a unviable character

no man pull that card all day if people refuse to believe show them

 

[MadeFromMetal]

can't interact with clone like Sub Zero can.

He can detonate the trap, if he sees you aren't falling into it or are trying to jump over it.

 

[omooba]

Hey.

When the game first came out (first week) I thought Unbreakable was the best variation for sub zero, as on paper it looked like this:

1. Takes no chip damage
2. Reduces all opponents damage by 13-25%, dropping 40% characters for a bar to 27%
3. Has a 50/50
4. Gains a 6 frame parry for no meter

At the beginning of the game, this has potential to work, but as we developed in the community along with the recent patches and no attention to Sub Zero, this no longer works and is arguably the worst variation in the game (next to Metallic).

The inclusion of Predator not only buries Unbreakable, but it also ruins Grand Master, making this character redundant already and in only a few months of the games life.

Here are my thoughts on this.

Part 1: Unbreakable

Part 2: Grand Master / Cryomancer

In my opinion, Sub Zero is dead, as Predator is in better in every way.

Unless Sub Zero is totally overhauled in the next patch on all three variations, he will be the first character to die as we inevitably push towards competitively killing off the cast except for the same top 3-5 characters at every event and the game suffers the same fate every single fighting game does, although MKX has the best chance of any game I've played yet, it has been solely down to the investment of the NRS staff as they try to keep their ear to the ground, hopefully they don't take the foot off the pedal just yet and don't listen to the "Sub Zero is fine" propaganda that everyone is buying currently, as this game is close to being a perfectly rounded game, and I hope they know it.

Every character should be viable, the variation system should work.

you do know predator's d4 is punishable on block right? unlike subzero. secondly subzero's klone comes out instantly predator's doesn't there's also a huge recovery when done in the air. and unlike subzero if pred does it when ur doing a physical attack u don't get frozen or capture sooooo no just no

 

[haketh]

He can detonate the trap, if he sees you aren't falling into it or are trying to jump over it.

That's still not as useful as being able to throw or shatter the clone

 

[MKF30]

Haven't played with Sub in so long, forgot you can shatter the clone for damage lol. Clone has so many options compared to the past lol hide behind it as usually done, acts as a shield, can be tossed and shattered. Now in the future if Subby can make it move or walk that would be trippy lol

 

[MadeFromMetal]

That's still not as useful as being able to throw or shatter the clone

Not saying it is. Just pointing out that Predator can in fact interact with the trap.

 

[Error404]

Tremor's move list was leaked almost three weeks before the official release. People identified one full screen unblockable attack, one short-ranged projectile, and three long-ranged projectiles as universal special moves. The logical assumption was Tremor was going to be a zoning character in some way, shape, or form, but unfortunately he fits no character archetype. The character is so abysmal players are still uncertain about the best way to use him.

Speaking of DLC, Predator is only two weeks older than Tremor in terms of the release date. You have apparently acquired adequate knowledge of Predator to presume he entirely invalidates Sub Zero in all variations while simultaneously you know that Tremor has potential in Crystalline. I actually do not question your knowledge, only your hypocrisy. You tell me I am wrong about Tremor, a character who is one week old, but you state that Sub Zero is invalidated by Predator, a character who is three weeks old.

I would also like to know how you keep a positive image with some of this bullshit that you post. Let us be serious here. If Tom Brady had created this thread, a lot of posts would have been malicious. If I had created a thread that claimed Kano is officially "dead" and invalidated by Predator, one person would suggest I commit suicide, at least three haters would demand I be excluded from the Kombat Tomb Podcast, and countless others would state I only want "broken" zoning.

Would you shut up already? You haven't made a single informative post in what seems like 2 years. All you do is complain complain and complain. At least you can take your BS elsewhere and not derail a thread for no reason.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Predator has the third worst wake up in the game?

Summoner and Sorcerer Quan have NONE and Quan is arguably top 3 for his toolset.

I watched @Pig Of The Hut vs Crosby87 the other night and pig can tell you how he felt after playing against him.

Quan is not top 3.

I know this is off topic, but had to quickly address that.

 

[Slips]

He can detonate the trap, if he sees you aren't falling into it or are trying to jump over it.

That's true and a good point. So clone has two interactions with it while Predator's trap only has one.

I'd also would like to point out that clone blocks projectiles too, something else Trap doesn't do which clone does.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I actually feel the same with HQT and Kenshi.

As in HQT makes Kenshi worthless?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Don't bother. I'm well aware of why people think the match is bad, and I disagree. This thread isn't the place to discuss it, and to be honest I don't care that much because in time I will be proven right.

This community is habitually dead wrong about a lot of things tier wise and matchup wise, and there is mountains of evidence to support that since the game's release.

A prime example is Pig saying that Kenshi's buffs were a gift from the heavens, and EVERYONE in the f'ing community agreeing with him without even taking the time to assess the buffs for themselves.

7 weeks later, we have Pig in a Tremor thread saying that he "must have been drinking too much of the silly juice", because Balanced Kenshi is still garbage.

But if you go back to the day the buffs were announced, I stated in the Kenshi forum that they did nothing to address his problems as a character. Of course nobody listens because I'm not a known player. Such is life.

Just because everyone on TYM thinks something, does not mean it's even close to being true. Raiden vs GM Sub is not 7-3, not even close. If you believe that, then you don't know what a real 7-3 matchup actually looks like.

The Kenshi buffs made him go from 2nd worst in the game to mid tier so at the time it absolutely seemed like a god send

Kenshi is like /was like a 500LB man
He was fat

Then he lost 200 pounds

WOOHOOOOOO he feels so much better now










.....but he's still fat. Get me?

 

[SneakyTortoise]

As in HQT makes Kenshi worthless?

I feel that HQT does everything that Kenshi can do but better. Would be interested to hear your opinion on that though.