MKX "3-styles" - good or bad?

[Flagg]

Tier list will not be that interesting b/c there will not be Raiden, but Raiden1, Raiden2 and Raiden3. Most ppl do not realize this.

Well I do believe at some point there will be one character that will "luck out" that will have 3 near perfect stances that will cover and counter all other tools in the game.

You have to admire the likes of NRS and Capcom for constantly trying to innovate and come up with new ideas. Tekken 7 will be more of the same stuff that's been happening since Tekken 3.

 

[THTB]

Bad balance = little variety = boring. Industry grow, streams are often, tournaments feature big pots = big attention
You want your game and your franchise and you company look good on those
Which Kabal/Spam/Imbalance doesnt really compliment to
You are wrong assuming people do not care about balance. They do, just in a different way. Pro player is interested in discovering broken stuff to win tournaments. Regular player wants to see good balance among characters b/c its not fun to lose to broken stuff. Spectators want to see variety and crazy stuff they didnt know existed. Especially if each EVO this is not the same stuff they've seen before.

If balance was this big a deal, MLG would have NEVER picked back up Melee. But it got picked up again...because it's a long-standing game that still gets massive support despite being a 13-year-old game with a massive gap in balance that isn't exactly uncommon knowledge.

Nobody really cares. As long as the game is hype regardless and is shown support by the community, it lasts.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Exactly. It would also make mastering your ENTIRE character more viable and worthwhile and it would make the tier list easier.

All in all variation lock is a terrible idea.

100% agree. Character lock with a blind variation pick is definitely the best way to do this imo. Promotes character loyalism and lessens the chances of extreme counter-picking.

 

[AK Stormthegates]

I'm more worried if they create a character who is ridiculous overall and only needs 1 style they can abuse. I'm also worried if a character loses core moves and has to play a shitty style to get access to it to even make them viable. A lot could go wrong in the 3-in-1 method but honestly nothing has been shown to give me a full opinion so I will just wait until more footage gets shown. I can definitely agree with Belial's concern though. Counterpick wars have the potential to happen with the 3 style system, however I would suggest waiting until actual footage gets shown for the game before you start worrying so much. Regardless of what happens they are going to stick to this as their big draw for the game.

 

[RoGE]

People will counterpick regardless if there is 3-styles or not, the difference is that the 3-styles heavily encourages it. Whether this is good or bad is completely up to you.

It's definitely is a double edged sword. Now they got 3 times the number of characters to balance so there's bound to be some broken stuff here and there, especially at the start of the game's life. What I hope happens in the final patch of the game is every character having at least ONE viable style, that way there will be plenty of character variety.

Also if you got nothing good to add to the thread then don't post anything.

 

[Linkuei82]

The only thing I'm worried about if there isn't blind pick for the 3 styles. Other than that, I'll wait till I actually play the game and see it in tournaments before I start Theory fighting.

 

[Eddy Wang]

NRS is following a model that the specials that you get from each variation changes in particular the playstyle you choose, it doesn't automatically changes one into a complete different character.

In every variation Scorpion will still have his spears and teleports, like he had in MK9, the difference this time is that with variation every character is buffed more into a area that suits best for the player way of playing this said character.

As you can see, Tom for example says the ice clone variation suits his playstyle better, however charlie murphy who likes to play more agressively said unbreakable suits his style best.

My only concern and hopefully there isn't a character that mops all others with every single variation or one single variation. The idea is every character to be viable without any of the variation traits added, and then once those are added it slightly not entirely gauges a specific archtype beneficts.

 

[CamChattic]

If you give a shit about balance why arent you playing/ promoting VF?

 

[legion666]

Bad balance = little variety = boring. Industry grow, streams are often, tournaments feature big pots = big attention
You want your game and your franchise and you company look good on those
Which Kabal/Spam/Imbalance doesnt really compliment to
You are wrong assuming people do not care about balance. They do, just in a different way. Pro player is interested in discovering broken stuff to win tournaments. Regular player wants to see good balance among characters b/c its not fun to lose to broken stuff. Spectators want to see variety and crazy stuff they didnt know existed. Especially if each EVO this is not the same stuff they've seen before.

Dude, are you even listening to yourself? Worrying about the balance of the game which isn't even close to being released???You are saying"little variety is boring" but then saying" instead of Raiden we get Raiden1,raiden2 and Raiden3. In my book 3 characters instead of one is more versatile. I doubt NRS would be able to jam all 3 move sets into one, they would have to cut something and even then balancing such colossal move sets will be impossible. 3 variations give us the opportunity to see people master characters they like with FG styles they are more comfortable playing. Like every player's character will be completely unique! ....
Unless you just trolling again...Странные русские общаются по английски на ТYM

 

[WakeUp DP]

I am just worried that it's going to be a counter-pick fest in tournaments.

What's wrong with counter picking?

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

100% agree. Character lock with a blind variation pick is definitely the best way to do this imo. Promotes character loyalism and lessens the chances of extreme counter-picking.

Ya I honestly cant see the benifit of variation lock aside from people who wish to have blatent counterpicking....which is bullshit given that Boon has stated the 3 variations are an attempt to null counterpicking... but I'm eager to here any arguement that supports variation lock of character lock..

 

[WakeUp DP]

Street Fighter Alpha 3 discards the "Manual" and "Auto" modes from the previous Alpha games by offering the player three different playing styles known as "isms". The standard playing style, A-ism (or Z-ism in Japan), is based on the previous Alpha games, in which the player has a three-level Super Combo gauge with access to several Super Combo moves. X-ism is a simple style based on Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in which the player has a single-level Super Combo gauge and access to a single but powerful Super Combo move. The third style, V-ism (or "variable" style), is a unique style that allows the player to perform custom combos similar to the ones in Street Fighter Alpha 2. In X-ism, players cannot air-block nor use Alpha Counters. Alpha 3 also introduces a "Guard Power Gauge" which depletes each time the player blocks – if the gauge is completely depleted, then the player will remain vulnerable for an attack.

 

[STRYKIE]

Considering the 'next best character syndrome' that keeps plaguing NRS's patching requests, I'm not surprised they took the route honestly.

Also, the variations will only promote more incentive to keep exploring their mains IMO, unlike the Sub-Zero community who concluded that he's a hit and run character in the first month of MK9's life (which eventually backfired horribly)........

 

[Badboy Takuma]

Fools. Play the game drink some beer and have some fun. Thats mk. Since mk1. If you like tactical fighting games then play arcsys or snk ect. Or even sf4 lol

 

[@MylesWright_]

Only one variation of the character will be relevant anyway and D'Vorah will be one of the first characters cried about

 

[Eddy Wang]

Fools. Play the game drink some beer and have some fun. Thats mk. Since mk1. If you like tactical fighting games then play arcsys or snk ect. Or even sf4 lol

lol wut

 

[shaowebb]

GREAT thing IMO.

We all have bad matchups and are forced to counterpick at times. I wouldn't play the Green Arrow vs Superman or Hawkgirl vs Sinestro matchups if you paid me. Now instead of having to have a back pocket other character who they have to relearn ALL THE FUNDAMENTALS for they can keep their fundamental poke and normal string knowledge and then just switch styles to suit the matchup to gain different tools more suited to the job.

Notice so far their seems to be better long range style, higher mobility style, and a damage style on everyone?
Its to cover matchup issues without forcing folks to have to start completely over on new characters if they wish to just be a character specialist.

This makes it great for players IMO.

Imagine if DJT had a stance that allowed him to throttle in on full screen zoner types? We wouldn't have seen him resort to Doomsday vs Superman last year or resort to it again this year vs Zod and get hammered when he gets stuck in tournies because he could keep his Green Lantern fundamentals intact to swap to a more zoner capable loadout of specials.

TLDR
You can now have one character and just their normals and strings to learn for any matchup because you can counterpick his specials to deal with your opponent without at the sacrifice of having to ditch your fundamentals and use a completely different character.

 

[xWildx]

....so I start the match picking zoning Scorpion against ice clone Sub-Zero. The opponent, seeing this, picks weapon Sub-Zero. I see this, and then choose ninjutsu Scorpion to combat this. The opponent sees this and chooses parry Sub-Zero... and so on. Unless, of course, once you choose our variation you're locked in, but I doubt it. This is why rules must be set in place.

And I personally don't see how the variations will help with MU's. If the community requires you to stick with the same character/variation then the loser can just choose the variation which counters what the winner already has selected. If not, we just reenter the variation war described above. Either way, you're still counter-picking, but only without having to choose an entirely different character.

This leads me to believe that almost everyone (aside from the select group of people who become "Variation" loyalists) will pick the most balanced variation in hopes that all of their bases will be covered. With a different variation used here or there for a very specific MU or two.

Granted, this is all very early and we have no idea how character archetypes will play out until we have our hands on the game, but I'd be lying if I said these thoughts weren't going through my head about the system.

I feel as if since NRS took that leap into the competitive scene they've just tried to formulate more and more mechanics to make the roster balanced without just... balancing the roster.

 

[Doombawkz]

If you're willing to learn 2 styles of characters (assuming they have 2 different styles that perfectly cover one another and completely counter the opposing character) then why wouldn't you be willing to learn 2 characters and have the same situation anyways? I think the idea is cool and I'm open to it since without it, its not like anything changes anyways.

Also I'm highly doubtful the inclusion of 3 other special moves upon a character whose core abilities are the same is going to make it a 3-7. A 6-4, maybe, but that's still easily winnable.

 

[CamChattic]

....so I start the match picking zoning Scorpion against ice clone Sub-Zero. The opponent, seeing this, picks weapon Sub-Zero. I see this, and then choose ninjutsu Scorpion to combat this. The opponent sees this and chooses parry Sub-Zero... and so on. Unless, of course, once you choose our variation you're locked in, but I doubt it. This is why rules must be set in place.

And I personally don't see how the variations will help with MU's. If the community requires you to stick with the same character/variation then the loser can just choose the variation which counters what the winner already has selected. If not, we just reenter the variation war described above. Either way, you're still counter-picking, but only without having to choose an entirely different character.

This leads me to believe that almost everyone (aside from the select group of people who become "Variation" loyalists) will pick the most balanced variation in hopes that all of their bases will be covered. With a different variation used here or there for a very specific MU or two.

Granted, this is all very early and we have no idea how character archetypes will play out until we have our hands on the game, but I'd be lying if I said these thoughts weren't going through my head about the system.

I feel as if since NRS took that leap into the competitive scene they've just tried to formulate more and more mechanics to make the roster balanced without just... balancing the roster.

Footsies at character select screen

 

[Pyronn]

What do you mean too early
1.) Wouldnt it be too late if brought up any later?
2.) What are the benefits of having 3 styles opposed to having 3-in-1?
3.) There are none except artificial restrictions that would only make balance worse.
Because counterpicks are bad. Counterpicks are a sign of poor balance.

4.) What most people seem to miss is that IT DOESNT ACTUALLY FIX BALANCE.
If character could switch styles in a match - it would, but you cant
It will not affect MU's b/c SubZero1 =/= SubZero2 they are different characters with similiar movelist.
5.) The whole "counterpicking" is decided at character select screen. This is exactly what 3-styles adress. And instead of "fixing" counterpicks (by making character more diverse) they actually encourage it (by making them more focused on one aspect)

In response based on numeric scheme:
1.) There is no real practical experience in the game yet beyond beta testing at E3, so this is a waste of time and purely speculation
2.) more styles equals variation no ? 3-in-1 just means alot more specials and flatter characters because ultimately people will favor a specific tool set, so by offering the option makes people break off the normal and experiment
3.) What fighting game is ever 100% balanced...
4.) Refer back to (3.), and consider if you are "playing a game for fun", and not for meta data appeal
5.) Isolating variables or styles makes flaws more apparent and possibly easier to address. Unless people are 100% loyal to the character, as the game matures people pick up pocket characters for counter picking so.......
- This fighting style variation in my opinion has been simplified from prior MK's with different fight styles. In a way this feels Street Fighter-ish when selecting the Ultras. It's a gimmick that makes you respect the character differently, but also if a particular fighting style is not commonly used online people will be slightly unfamiliar with the match up. It diversifies approaches by giving a player option A,B, or C.

I do not agree with this original post because it's is closing off options before they were experienced.

 

[shaowebb]

The options I get with Displacer Raiden and ThunderGod Raiden are pretty different. I could easily see that changing a numbers game in a matchup.

 

[LionHeart V1]

I'm going to beat everyone in this thread by throwing my ice clone in your face. Ice clone is all i need baby.

 

[SaltShaker]

Wow some of you guys are so defensive over "wanting" the game to be a certain way that you're ignoring real concerns that should be considered. OP raised a couple of good points whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I am hype to see how this will turn out too, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have any concerns. For example,

A) 25 to 30 characters, 75 to 90 total variations. That makes it A LOT more likely for some God Tier Soul Caliber Hilde variation to slip in unnoticed, or emerge after the final patch.

B) Patching. Will it be character or variation specific. I'm assuming it would patch the character, so if two variations are fine and one needs a nerf it may destroy the other two variations of that character. Like if the zoning variation of a character needs to be toned downed, so you patch the frame data of a universal move, a couple of strings that are too dominant for a zoning character, a poke, whatever, etc, it may balance the zoning variation but crush the other two that were originally balanced.

C) If it isn't hidden cursor on the variation select screen this will be much worse than expected. WITH a hidden cursor it will encourage people to learn all variations and add massive hype at matches. This will kill the entire idea if not hidden so hopefully it is.

D) Realistically speaking, expanding on A), if there are 75-90 total variations it does not promote balance, it hurts it. It encourages you even more to pick the select few at the top and turns more of the cast to fodder. You don't need to "play the game first" to be smart enough to understand that there won't be 45-50 top tier variations.


These are my main concerns and hopefully they can be ironed out as best as possible before the release day.

 

[CCVengeance]

Balance in fighting ganes is both neccesary and overrated. Kof13 is arguably the most balanced fighrer. Doesnt stop most palyers adding EX Iori and/or mr karate to their team. According to japanese players GG Xrd id balanced. Doesnt stop Pot from being considered the worst character.