MK1 Tier List Discussion Thread

[Bloodfang]

@Noserfatu, Pretty sure people are still recovering and figuring out the full ramifications of the changes. Like Nitara being viable even if you are not Deoxys now that her Blood Sacrifice doesn't hurt more than it helps. Reptile got damage scaling buff on his Orbs but is it enough? Without Cyrax being able to give consistent safety is Scorpion more obviously bottom tier with Sub-Zero? I think although shifted around a bit the S, A+, and A tiers are still relatively close in competitive ability with each other. But I think Sub/Scorp are now easily bottom 2 and their own B tier with a much larger divide between them and the others as they have glaring weaknesses that only their biggest haters or upplayers can deny. The rest of the cast is still so well designed that with the exception of a really good Cage, Kenshi, Ashrah, or arguably still Raiden it is anyone's game imo.

 

[Immortal]

After the patch Cage and Lao(kameo) imo both are in their own S+ tier category, alone.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

I think my Tier list isn't accurate after patch. The meta was basically developed around Cyrax.
I do think Jonny is 1, Kenshi can still get Sento out with other Kameos and basically the same with Kano.
Raiden is still very good, so is Baraka, his damage still high but his mix and buttons is still there.

If you asked me a few days after patch I would of thought Rain dropped to near bottom of mid but with Jax I feel he is at the top of A+, only concern is losing D3 Armor Geyser but can probably make Geysers safe with Jax swipe mid and his 20% throw combos is definitely strong.
You don't get strong HTB setups midscreen with Jax but you do get the unblockable setups and if you time them correctly the jump in prevents blocking low to avoid popup.

 

[Juggs]

Damn this discussion is dead. Post patch thoughts:

Definitely top tier: cage, ashrah, kenshi, reiko
Possibly top tier: Raiden, rain, Tanya, Liu Kang, kitana, kung lao

Not top tier but def high tier and underrated: li Mei

Tier discussion definitely hasn’t been as active for this game. I think it’s because of how much of an impact Kameos have

 

[M2Dave]

If you asked me a few days after patch I would of thought Rain dropped to near bottom of mid but with Jax I feel he is at the top of A+, only concern is losing D3 Armor Geyser but can probably make Geysers safe with Jax swipe mid and his 20% throw combos is definitely strong.

The Jax mid swipe is a summon attack.

Goro's up punch makes gesyer safe, but I do not believe Rain can combo.

Speaking of kameos, the two best right now are Kung Lao and Goro.

Cyrax is arguably low mid tier now.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Tier discussion definitely hasn’t been as active for this game. I think it’s because of how much of an impact Kameos have

Definitely, I think it's because there is so much stuff to discover
New tech every 3-5 days like Kara Jump Cancels, New HTBs, Anti Invulnerability Wakeup Options, JIK OS like Rains JIK3211 that comes out 32 on hit for popup into HTB setups and 211 on block.

I know on MK11 they didn't have any new tech like MK1 to find and was interested in Tier lists and eventually "Buff Me/Nerf Me" Lists.

I absolutely love that they made Kameo assists in this Mortal Kombat. It's added layers of depth and allowed characters to break their own limitations.

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Goro's up punch makes gesyer safe, but I do not believe Rain can combo.

Wait so Goro covers gap in Geyser and makes end of it safe at same time? OO

 

[ReD WolF]

The Jax mid swipe is a summon attack.

Goro's up punch makes gesyer safe, but I do not believe Rain can combo.

Speaking of kameos, the two best right now are Kung Lao and Goro.

Cyrax is arguably low mid tier now.

I'm curious as to what makes you think Goro is a top tier cameo? I know he works wonders for Kung Lao (Character) and Tanya.

 

[Juggs]

My MK1 post patch tier list. A few characters have gone down a bit, especially ones that got nerfed (obviously) but also ones that relied heavily on Cyrax. I don’t believe Raiden is in a tier of his own anymore, and Baraka and Rain have moved out of either S tiers. They’re still good, but with Baraka getting nerfed and then both of them relying a lot on Cyrax, that naturally moves them back a little. And Scorpion, who many already regarded as bottom tier or even the worst character, also inexplicably got nerfed, so he’s now even worse. I still think Sub and Nitara are bottom tier.

Keep in mind though, I’ll make the same disclaimer I always make. I think every character in this game is viable and can win. It’s just some characters have to work much harder than others. And of course, this is still an early tier list and one made relatively soon after a recent balance patch. As is the case with every tier list, every position on this list is subject to change and could change from day to day.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

My tier list:

 

[Bloodfang]

Agree for the most part with @Juggs's list. I do think with the buff to the Blood Sacrifice move that Nitara is A tier. This really really hurts to say but I think Sub and Scorp are the only B+ characters. They are alot of fun to play and still viable (with skill ad effort) but everyone else just feels more viable. Geras and Havik may arguably be A+ as well but not sure how much they've changed post patch. Hell, at ECT there was at least 1 Geras in top 8 (or maybe 16 at least sorry my memory is fuzy it is 6 am for me) and Deoxys did insanely well with Nitara but I don't remember any Sub-Zeros and the 2 Scorpions I can remember I don't believe made it out of the early pools. When top 8 players will experiment with everyone else online but won't touch Sub or Scorp that says something. And all of the above was with Cyrax as a crutch (the 2 Geras and Nitara used Lao at ECT).

Now I'm not saying Major Tournament usage ENTIRELY determines a tier list but it does give a good idea of who the top players feel comfortable with when competing with big money on the line. And that should say something. Breakdown on tourney usage:

Mortal Kombat 1 character stats for ECT 2023 reveal most popular picks at first Pro Kompetition event

 

[Felipe_Gewehr]

My MK1 post patch tier list. A few characters have gone down a bit, especially ones that got nerfed (obviously) but also ones that relied heavily on Cyrax. I don’t believe Raiden is in a tier of his own anymore, and Baraka and Rain have moved out of either S tiers. They’re still good, but with Baraka getting nerfed and then both of them relying a lot on Cyrax, that naturally moves them back a little. And Scorpion, who many already regarded as bottom tier or even the worst character, also inexplicably got nerfed, so he’s now even worse. I still think Sub and Nitara are bottom tier.

Keep in mind though, I’ll make the same disclaimer I always make. I think every character in this game is viable and can win. It’s just some characters have to work much harder than others. And of course, this is still an early tier list and one made relatively soon after a recent balance patch. As is the case with every tier list, every position on this list is subject to change and could change from day to day.

View attachment 21194

I mostly agree with this, but I find it weird how high Liu Kang and Kung Lao are, and how low Havik and Geras are (I believe them both to be better than Kitana). Everything else makes sense.

 

[Juggs]

I mostly agree with this, but I find it weird how high Liu Kang and Kung Lao are, and how low Havik and Geras are (I believe them both to be better than Kitana). Everything else makes sense.

It’s just because I believe the characters in front of them are a bit better. BUT, I also don’t have too much experience with Geras and Havik as well, which plays a big part in their placement on my list.

 

[Juggs]

Agree for the most part with @Juggs's list. I do think with the buff to the Blood Sacrifice move that Nitara is A tier. This really really hurts to say but I think Sub and Scorp are the only B+ characters. They are alot of fun to play and still viable (with skill ad effort) but everyone else just feels more viable. Geras and Havik may arguably be A+ as well but not sure how much they've changed post patch. Hell, at ECT there was at least 1 Geras in top 8 (or maybe 16 at least sorry my memory is fuzy it is 6 am for me) and Deoxys did insanely well with Nitara but I don't remember any Sub-Zeros and the 2 Scorpions I can remember I don't believe made it out of the early pools. When top 8 players will experiment with everyone else online but won't touch Sub or Scorp that says something. And all of the above was with Cyrax as a crutch (the 2 Geras and Nitara used Lao at ECT).

Now I'm not saying Major Tournament usage ENTIRELY determines a tier list but it does give a good idea of who the top players feel comfortable with when competing with big money on the line. And that should say something. Breakdown on tourney usage:

Mortal Kombat 1 character stats for ECT 2023 reveal most popular picks at first Pro Kompetition event

I didn’t realize she got buffed. Also like I said to @Felipe_Gewehr, my Geras and Havik placements are my weakest confidence placements as I don’t have a lot of experience using or fighting against either. I’ve seen more people use them in tournaments and streams in general than I have actually played against them, lol. So they easily could be in A+.

And yeah, Scorp and Sub definitely are the worst characters in the game imo

 

[M2Dave]

Wait so Goro covers gap in Geyser and makes end of it safe at same time? OO

I am not sure about the gap, but geyser becomes safe with up punch. I doubt you can follow up with anything, though.

I'm curious as to what makes you think Goro is a top tier cameo? I know he works wonders for Kung Lao (Character) and Tanya.

Up punch gives certain characters safe, armored launchers. Aside from Kung Lao and Tanya, (Young) Shang Tsung and Sub Zero can also launch from EX Claw slashes and EX slide, respectively.

I have also seen Raiden players switch from Cyrax to Goro. I believe up punch jails after storm cell and can be made plus on block.

Up punch has similar functionality to kopter chopper, which is obviously nowhere near as good as it used to be.

 

[Juggs]

My tier list:

View attachment 21196

Why do you have Baraka as a bottom 5 character? And why do you think Smoke is top 10?

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Why do you have Baraka as a bottom 5 character? And why do you think Smoke is top 10?

The tier list isn’t in order, I just have Baraka as a solid mid tier.

I don’t have smoke top 10 either just A tier. Even though his frame data is bad on paper, and he’s loaded with gaps…

the game is still human vs human.

He basically has infinite ways to get in and mix you up. Especially with Lao and Sareena kameo.

It doesn’t really matter how many times you fight him, or how good you are, once a good smoke goes invisible you’re stuck guessing. I feel like that’s such a strong win condition that can beat 99% of players even if the matchup isn’t the best.

On top of that, I really feel like he dominates the pace of the match.

Watching Just Nasty and Big Daddy G showed me this.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I am not sure about the gap, but geyser becomes safe with up punch. I doubt you can follow up with anything, though.



Up punch gives certain characters safe, armored launchers. Aside from Kung Lao and Tanya, (Young) Shang Tsung and Sub Zero can also launch from EX Claw slashes and EX slide, respectively.

I have also seen Raiden players switch from Cyrax to Goro. I believe up punch jails after storm cell and can be made plus on block.

Up punch has similar functionality to kopter chopper, which is obviously nowhere near as good as it used to be.

He’s great for Kenshis who like to rush down https://x.com/mashernl/status/1719380349724008642?s=46&t=hSkiyIrskk7H7tDvqotbpg

 

[Juggs]

The tier list isn’t in order, I just have Baraka as a solid mid tier.

Ah, gotcha.

I don’t have smoke top 10 either just A tier. Even though his frame data is bad on paper, and he’s loaded with gaps…

the game is still human vs human.

He basically has infinite ways to get in and mix you up. Especially with Lao and Sareena kameo.

It doesn’t really matter how many times you fight him, or how good you are, once a good smoke goes invisible you’re stuck guessing. I feel like that’s such a strong win condition that can beat 99% of players even if the matchup isn’t the best.

On top of that, I really feel like he dominates the pace of the match.

Watching Just Nasty and Big Daddy G showed me this.

Invisibility is definitely his best tool. The problem is 99.99% of players aren’t used to fighting completely invisible opponents. Coming from UMK3 where Robot Smoke and Reptile could go completely invis and would stay invis until you hit them, it takes awhile to learn what players like to do once they go invis. For instance, in UMK3, just about every Robot Smoke player that’d do the invis setup would jump towards you afterwards. There’s no way to know this as the screen doesn’t go up when you jump in that game and you can’t hear him jump. But I got so many anti air uppercuts predicting the jump in because it was just a natural tendency for players to jump towards you right after they went invis. Obviously UMK3 is faaar different from MK1, but the point is that most players are gonna fall into some type of pattern after they go invis. And in MK1, they can’t just run away afterwards like in UMK3 because it costs meter to go invis and it’s time limited, so running away would be a waste. So you know that they’re most likely going to try and rush you down in some way. This is important because hitting Reptile/Smoke while they’re invis will of course make them visible again. Most players freeze up when their opponent goes invis, which makes sense. But you’re playing right into their game when you do that. Because at that point, you have to make a guess anyway, might as well try to make an offensive guess as opposed to a defensive one (at least imo). Unless of course you know they like to jump after their invis setup, or like to go for the overhead, or low, or teleport, etc. Of course, they’re not always gonna do the same things, this is why Smoke’s can gimmick out wins vs arguably better players. It’s also one of the reasons I dropped him. It’s not very satisfying winning with Smoke. You either play against someone who doesn’t know the MU at all and let you get away with murder, or you just make them guess constantly while they can’t even see you. You’re not opening them up or outplaying them, you’re just forcing them to blindly guess.

Anyway, there’s still quite a number of players who don’t know the MU and will lose because of that and not because of invisibility. But like I said, once people start realizing what the best strats are when Smoke goes invis (namely making an offensive guess instead of a defensive one), and of course learn the MU outside of that, you’re gonna see less and less of Smoke players winning in this way.

However, he IS pretty good with the right Kameo like you said. I actually think Sektor is one of the best Kameo’s for him because it pretty much does what Cyrax did pre-patch and makes a lot of what Smoke does safe. Lao is also good with him.

Anyway, I think he’s mid tier and I understand your reasoning for having him where you do. I appreciate the response!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Here's mine not in order I think Johnny is the best when he has Hype built up and Raiden is still doing 50% and there is several Kameo options to utilize frame traps on Storm Cell that launch, my controversial take is Nitara went up, Sonic is doing some crazy stuff with her and washing some pros with her:

I also think Geras is pretty strong, he used Lao before patch and only had his snap infinite removed. Still mad strong.
It's honestly hard to tell because the meta changes to momentum IMO from Cyrax on everything.

But I can at least explain Rain:
I have had him in A+ since beginning. He is IMO a momentum to pressure character meaning you get a hit now your in the blender.
Cyrax made it very easy to get that hit because of D3 Armor but now Jax Unblockable setups work every similar to Lao hat pressure.
His only issue holding him back is:
His footsie range is challenged a bit without safe Armor conversion off D3.
F2 mid is stubby and has a gap between low. F3 is 28 frames and throw cancel doesn't reach there. D3 is -13 on block and he can't follow.
Now I'm calling unblockable Jax to allow me to get pressure going and DDU launches and you can get whirlpool/combo off it so it synergizes well with Unblockable before you have momentum for HTB setups and loop unblockable is a corner thing.
He has B4 but it's a splat that gives them Armor option not a fun thing against Johnny's Armor/parry mix.
Slowest projectiles but has bubble

Other than a few Footsie issues I think Rain is good. You watch I'll be wrong and Sonic will show new S Tier tech, but for now none of the pro Rain players have shown anything to circumvent D3 range other than momentum setups and we all know SonicFox is the man to do it (thinking his D'Vorah)
I'm sure the meta will change soon and new tech is coming.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Ah, gotcha.


Invisibility is definitely his best tool. The problem is 99.99% of players aren’t used to fighting completely invisible opponents. Coming from UMK3 where Robot Smoke and Reptile could go completely invis and would stay invis until you hit them, it takes awhile to learn what players like to do once they go invis. For instance, in UMK3, just about every Robot Smoke player that’d do the invis setup would jump towards you afterwards. There’s no way to know this as the screen doesn’t go up when you jump in that game and you can’t hear him jump. But I got so many anti air uppercuts predicting the jump in because it was just a natural tendency for players to jump towards you right after they went invis. Obviously UMK3 is faaar different from MK1, but the point is that most players are gonna fall into some type of pattern after they go invis. And in MK1, they can’t just run away afterwards like in UMK3 because it costs meter to go invis and it’s time limited, so running away would be a waste. So you know that they’re most likely going to try and rush you down in some way. This is important because hitting Reptile/Smoke while they’re invis will of course make them visible again. Most players freeze up when their opponent goes invis, which makes sense. But you’re playing right into their game when you do that. Because at that point, you have to make a guess anyway, might as well try to make an offensive guess as opposed to a defensive one (at least imo). Unless of course you know they like to jump after their invis setup, or like to go for the overhead, or low, or teleport, etc. Of course, they’re not always gonna do the same things, this is why Smoke’s can gimmick out wins vs arguably better players. It’s also one of the reasons I dropped him. It’s not very satisfying winning with Smoke. You either play against someone who doesn’t know the MU at all and let you get away with murder, or you just make them guess constantly while they can’t even see you. You’re not opening them up or outplaying them, you’re just forcing them to blindly guess.

Anyway, there’s still quite a number of players who don’t know the MU and will lose because of that and not because of invisibility. But like I said, once people start realizing what the best strats are when Smoke goes invis (namely making an offensive guess instead of a defensive one), and of course learn the MU outside of that, you’re gonna see less and less of Smoke players winning in this way.

However, he IS pretty good with the right Kameo like you said. I actually think Sektor is one of the best Kameo’s for him because it pretty much does what Cyrax did pre-patch and makes a lot of what Smoke does safe. Lao is also good with him.

Anyway, I think he’s mid tier and I understand your reasoning for having him where you do. I appreciate the response!

Great post. I didn’t know that about UMK3. It’s interesting how things change as people get better.

Which is why I’m not a big fan of huge nerfs and buffs early on. But that’s a different conversation.

 

[Eji1700]

My least confident lists so far, as i just haven't had as much time to play/watch since the patch:


Order doesn't matter. I do think that shang and geras are a little downplayed right now and i've seen some impressive nitara stuff, but i'm not sure how "real" it is. The yellow and Green tiers could probably just be one long one but I think the yellow's have a higher chance of moving up. Still even typing that I think the green's could move up, just less likely.



Lao is easy enough. If you don't have a reason to use someone else, use lao. It's basically never ever bad based on low hat on its own giving you both a zoning gameplan, an offense tool, and a way to cover your risky/mixup stuff.

Many use case characters have a tool or tools that mean they're just very powerful and probably the go to if you don't want to lao or think one of those tools does something lao can't.

Specific use is for anyone who just does something that no one else can do in a specific situation. kenshi getting sento out off a freeze, Sub for anti zoning, darrius reiko combos, scorps spear/hellfire, etc.

Cyrax, I think, will in the future revolve around his bomb setups, but that'll have to wait and see. Shunjinko is very much a counter pick as he currently exists.

Kano/Sonya aren't bad, but whatever reason you're picking them for,
someone else probably does it better.

Motaro feels like Kung Lao made his universe with the same spite Liu showed to Quan chi. If you want a teleport, well you're picking lao, end of discussion.

His projectile reflect is already up against sub's anti projectile option, but also doesn't work on the most common projectile in the game (low hat), and feels like it might be stronger if there was a stronger zoning game in place, but there isn't (or again the ones that are used aren't affected as badly by motaro).

His fireball/turret are "ok" but not good enough to justify picking him. His fatal blow gimmick is neat, but not enough in the current state to justify. He just feels like he doesn't do enough when right now the main reason you'd pick him is the teleport, and lao is just vastly bette then.

 

[Noserfatu]

My tier list. It's not in any particular order. I think li Mei and Tanya are better than people think.

S- characters that can win tournaments and feel stronger than the rest of the cast

A- characters that can go top 8 in tournaments. Feel very strong but they're just not quite as strong as S tier.

B- Viable characters. Can definitely beat characters above them, but will notice a difference in character strength against the top tiers. Probably not making top 8s.

C- if you're looking to make it out of pools, do not pick these characters.

 

[rifraf]

I agree with Sub-Zero, Scorpion being probably the worst characters in the game. Sub-Zero has good tools but severely lacks dmg, Scorpion has good dmg but his tools are poop.

 

[Juggs]

My least confident lists so far, as i just haven't had as much time to play/watch since the patch:
View attachment 21198

Order doesn't matter. I do think that shang and geras are a little downplayed right now and i've seen some impressive nitara stuff, but i'm not sure how "real" it is. The yellow and Green tiers could probably just be one long one but I think the yellow's have a higher chance of moving up. Still even typing that I think the green's could move up, just less likely.

View attachment 21199

Lao is easy enough. If you don't have a reason to use someone else, use lao. It's basically never ever bad based on low hat on its own giving you both a zoning gameplan, an offense tool, and a way to cover your risky/mixup stuff.

Many use case characters have a tool or tools that mean they're just very powerful and probably the go to if you don't want to lao or think one of those tools does something lao can't.

Specific use is for anyone who just does something that no one else can do in a specific situation. kenshi getting sento out off a freeze, Sub for anti zoning, darrius reiko combos, scorps spear/hellfire, etc.

Cyrax, I think, will in the future revolve around his bomb setups, but that'll have to wait and see. Shunjinko is very much a counter pick as he currently exists.

Kano/Sonya aren't bad, but whatever reason you're picking them for,
someone else probably does it better.

Motaro feels like Kung Lao made his universe with the same spite Liu showed to Quan chi. If you want a teleport, well you're picking lao, end of discussion.

His projectile reflect is already up against sub's anti projectile option, but also doesn't work on the most common projectile in the game (low hat), and feels like it might be stronger if there was a stronger zoning game in place, but there isn't (or again the ones that are used aren't affected as badly by motaro).

His fireball/turret are "ok" but not good enough to justify picking him. His fatal blow gimmick is neat, but not enough in the current state to justify. He just feels like he doesn't do enough when right now the main reason you'd pick him is the teleport, and lao is just vastly bette then.

I like your character tier list. Except I think Baraka is too low. For Kameos, I don’t mind your list but I’m not confident about Kameos right now.