That's not the evolution of tier lists I've seen over the past 10+ years, but I suppose it's just semantics or whether you want certain grades to have set meanings across games. For example, a lot of people aren't using anything below B in their tier lists for MK1 because C and D can mean unplayable. I'd argue that S can have a set meaning at the opposite end of the spectrum, but if the only goal of the tier list is to order characters and not show how narrow the banding is for a particular game, then again, it doesn't matter.
This is why i've been doing what sajam/lordknight do and actually have descriptive names rather than arbitrary letters. Too much variance in what everyone thinks, and if you start comparing between games you get games like this where S to B is "ok" or older games where C was "literally should never pick vs an S".
Sub with no neutral tools? Random slide? He has a solid mid string, a good low string, his dive kick is great, his mid projectile is very powerful with the right spacing, and his Klone has multiple uses of course. There's no reason to play randomly with him unless you are looking to establish that worry in your opponent. I've seen a few people make this "no neutral" claim on posts here and am mystified. Perhaps people are only comparing him to his beta version or are trying to play him like he did in MK 11 or MK X and haven't changed their style to his current tools? I've been playing him since release and haven't had that struggle.
Also, Tanya only has a safe armored launcher with Goro, same as Sub can. So that wouldn't count as a distinction between them. Hers is multi hitting and can go over characters, which are big pluses, but his is farther reaching and a low, so they both have positives. Neither is as good as Kung Lao's of course, but they're both amazing.
Slide is the worst it's ever been. There are multiple projectiles in this game you cannot slide on reaction and have to guess, and it's death on block. It's hardly a major neutral tool, and it's main purpose as an anti projectile threat has been gutted. Oh and guess what, the most common projectile is lao hat...which it wouldn't work against even if sub didn't have mandatory standing frames.
His mid string is slow, minus on block, and death if you do the full thing, with gaps to armor through. It does advance nicely.
His low string can't be combo'd out of without an ambush or setup style kameo, and he's got no real overhead threat once you get better at recognizing the animation so you always block low anyways. Oh also has a gap.
Dive kick and clone punch are good.
His clone is the weakest it's ever been (if you don't count MK11's bullshit). It can be armor punished ON REACTION, and even if you don't have armor, again it's an "on reaction" thing. It also has a trash hitbox, a zillion recovery frames, an EX that was almost buffed by being made literally unusuable so people wouldn't accidentally use it and waste 2 bars, and a stupid high cooldown before you can use it again (fucking both his offense and combos).
The hitbox is especially bad because you can basically always d1 a sub string and if he didn't commit to the 3rd hit, then the D1 will beat whatever he does after, be safe vs clone/anything else he'd do. Some characters and some spacing's can also get D3/D4 for basically free to check him as well.
Oh and I believe geras can meterless punish clone on reaction.
So much of sub is currently just knowledge checks. It feels like 4 different people designed him, all wanting one tool to be really good (vapors, dive kick, clone, overhead), but nerfed the other aspects to keep it fair, but all we're left with is the nerfs. His whole kit screams "well we don't want this to be too powerful" as if it's compensated by some busted ability or tech, but that doesn't actually exist.
As for goro, the big issue is he doesn't solve sub's aforementioned issues. He gives some easier combo routes for basic damage and yes an armored launcher, but that doesn't matter when your entire offense evaporates vs someone who's good.
