Match Footage - Raiden MIT using Raiden in YOMI finals

[Bender]

you are +8 if you block thunder strings

this is better than being +0

this is like saying attacking any character is risky in neutral cuz they can just armor it

if you are +8 and stick out a poke and raiden decides to press a button he gets hit.
if he tries to armor your poke that's still raiden trying to take away YOUR initiative, if you block EX shocker you can punish, if you crouch poked you avoided EX vicinity blast. if you blocked EX superman or EX db3 you punish.
if you think he will block just run up and do a mixup or another bait.

No, he has a frame to backdash my d4 (the only attack that comes close to reaching in time). He can also armor my d4 and I eat a full combo. Even if it hits him, he is too far away at that point to followup with anything useful. He can either (1) Neutral jump and blows up any followup pressure. (2) Armor. (3) Choose to backdash now.

My only point is you can't mount any offense on Raiden and I have one of the better rushdown characters.

Again, I wouldn't care about being able to get a poke off/ pressure started if it weren't a 6 frame mid startup string. Because it is so good right now, the consequences of doing the full string should be a little greater. 90% of the time I try to do anything, I end up putting myself in danger

 

[Zoidberg747]

you are +8 if you block thunder strings

this is better than being +0

this is like saying attacking any character is risky in neutral cuz they can just armor it

if you are +8 and stick out a poke and raiden decides to press a button he gets hit.
if he tries to armor your poke that's still raiden trying to take away YOUR initiative, if you block EX shocker you can punish, if you crouch poked you avoided EX vicinity blast. if you blocked EX superman or EX db3 you punish.
if you think he will block just run up and do a mixup or another bait.

note; people have already mentioned it in this thread, but you can low profile his f1 despite it being a mid, from range.



char is relatively way stronger than the most of the cast. the reason is NOT because reading him doing a lightning string and blocking it and being +8 is not good enough frame advantage wise


dvorah is + on her low and overhead starters with run cancels. raiden is -8 on overhead with OS and -8 on low string.

quan chi is +14 on overhead or low with a bar. quan chi is + on anything when backed with bat. scorp is slightly plus after low run cancel, he is +5 on 214 DASH cancel, +20 on 214 run cancel.

raiden is going to give up his turn when he fails a mixup, or try to reclaim his turn with an armor move. other chars (who may have worse defensive options) KEEP THEIR TURN GOING even if they fail a mixup. it balances out among these top tier (imo) characters.

I dont think that Dvorah info is correct. You can armor out of F22/b1 Wasp Cancel and even if you do get the wasp cancel off she is - and not guaranteed any pressure after. The only time she is guaranteed a 50/50 is off of a blocked f112 WGC which is +16 and even then the timing is super strict to get it off where it can't be interrupted.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

This Is a a good rebalance to me. What do you think. F1 is mid and is 9 frames. F1,2 is -1 on block. Raidens d1 and d3 are -3/5 instead of the hideous -9 they are now. B2 cannot be special cancelable. Balanced?

No, B2 should still be cancellable we just need the OS bug removed, if you just do B2 into EX electric grab its not safe, its only -8 without the meter.

Please keep in mind that the other two raidens don't have f12, so talking about removing any of the decent tools they have to punish thunder god players is wrong. MOS and Displacer are not broken whatsoever and besides f1 as a poke we don't have a good mid (f2 is advancing but slow), I never say "he needs it" but in this case he does.

 

[Matix218]

People in this thread make it sound like raiden OS is something unique to the char. Many unsafe mixups become safe with OS, not just raiden. All I showed is that it is tournament viable.

There are many other chars that turn their unsafe mixups into a safe one with OS. It's how the game is, start practicing them.

Just out of curiosity, would you rather the option selects be removed from the game completely or stay in?

Just curious on your feedback on this.

Congrats on your win at CB btw. Awesome stuff!

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

"Just poke out" sounds so familiar! Imagine if MK9 cage had safe 50/50's too. LMAO

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

People in this thread make it sound like raiden OS is something unique to the char. Many unsafe mixups become safe with OS, not just raiden. All I showed is that it is tournament viable.

There are many other chars that turn their unsafe mixups into a safe one with OS. It's how the game is, start practicing them.

I just want to thank you for showing us all the way. You are the man sir

 

[delbuster]

there are plenty of different changes that could be made to make raiden weaker than he is now, the problem is people making sweeping generalizations.

here are raiden properties that make him strong and easy to use
6f mid that is easily hitconfirmable
for some reason that string recovers really fast and has an optional followup so it can be used for resetting pressure or frame traps, and they are relatively safe at -3 and -8 with pushback
his overhead and low are both 13 frames, making his mixup options unseeable. they are also -8 if done properly on block, so they are relatively safe.
he has a restand combo into a +17 move
does good damage

No, he has a frame to backdash my d4 (the only attack that comes close to reaching in time). He can also armor my d4 and I eat a full combo. Even if it hits him, he is too far away at that point to followup with anything useful. He can either (1) Neutral jump and blows up any followup pressure. (2) Armor. (3) Choose to backdash now.

My only point is you can't mount any offense on Raiden and I have one of the better rushdown characters.

Again, I wouldn't care about being able to get a poke off/ pressure started if it weren't a 6 frame mid startup string. Because it is so good right now, the consequences of doing the full string should be a little greater. 90% of the time I try to do anything, I end up putting myself in danger

you can read backdash. you have the initiative.
you should not consider yourself at a disadvantage if you are +8... if you think that then you are getting read.

I dont think that Dvorah info is correct. You can armor out of F22/b1 Wasp Cancel and even if you do get the wasp cancel off she is - and not guaranteed any pressure after. The only time she is guaranteed a 50/50 is off of a blocked f112 WGC which is +16 and even then the timing is super strict to get it off where it can't be interrupted.

f22 LRC is definitely plus. doesn't block string into anything but if she does a fast move after it on block it should beat out normal mashing.
[edit] apparently it is not plus.
b1 not sure. but yeah there is an armorable gap, but there is a difference between being plus and minus.

being able to do an advancing mid string f112 blockstring into a 50/50 is pretty unique, raiden does not have that. raiden only has that on hit.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

6f mid that is easily hitconfirmable
for some reason that string recovers really fast and has an optional followup so it can be used for resetting pressure or frame traps, and they are relatively safe at -3 and -8 with pushback

that reason is the os bug, they dont HAVE to hit confirm, the game is hit confirming for them, If NRS purposely designed the game like that and its not being removed, then even as a raiden player imma be like

 

[delbuster]

i am not quite sure what you are talking about

 

[Zoidberg747]

there are plenty of different changes that could be made to make raiden weaker than he is now, the problem is people making sweeping generalizations.

here are raiden properties that make him strong and easy to use
6f mid that is easily hitconfirmable
for some reason that string recovers really fast and has an optional followup so it can be used for resetting pressure or frame traps, and they are relatively safe at -3 and -8 with pushback
his overhead and low are both 13 frames, making his mixup options unseeable. they are also -8 if done properly on block, so they are relatively safe.
he has a restand combo into a +17 move
does good damage


you can read backdash. you have the initiative.


f22 LRC is definitely plus. doesn't block string into anything but if she does a fast move after it on block it should beat out normal mashing.
b1 not sure. but yeah there is an armorable gap, but there is a difference between being plus and minus.

being able to do an advancing mid string f112 blockstring into a 50/50 is pretty unique, raiden does not have that. raiden only has that on hit.

Nah it definitely isn't haha. The Dvorah community already tested this and I just went back and tested it myself. F22 WGC 1(1 is her fastest normal) can be beat out by Raiden's f1. Timing is a little tricky at first but entirely doable. You should be able to always poke out of F22 WGC pressure.

Edit: The last part is true but to be fair I never denied she could do that. I also think she is just as if not stronger than Raiden.

 

[delbuster]

okay, good to know. i'll edit my posts accordingly. thank you for the information.

 

[brizzle]

"Just poke out" sounds so familiar! Imagine if MK9 cage had safe 50/50's too. LMAO

Raiden was balanced around his overhead being one of the most unsafe moves in the game. This is the problem.

 

[Dizzy]

Just out of curiosity, would you rather the option selects be removed from the game completely or stay in?

Just curious on your feedback on this.

Congrats on your win at CB btw. Awesome stuff!

I assume you mean the hit/block OS. I'd like if they were universally removed, yeah.

 

[Zoidberg747]

okay, good to know. i'll edit my posts accordingly. thank you for the information.

No prob