Question - Stunt Double Match ups that SD does better than A-List?

[smokey]

@GGA Dizzy SD is straight up worse than A-List no doubt, but in matches where the neutral game involves a lot more ducking and running rather than poking and spacing you need to factor in the stamina costs of A-List mixups. If you get in with no stamina you need to use a bar to stay + on block with no stamina, or you get in and its straight away your opponents turn which could end with you full screen anyway.
This is pretty much the ONLY reasoning that makes SD shine above A-list for ANY matchup other than GM Sub. When you get in as SD you are in their face at least +10 advantage, if they get opened up they are losing 30-40% if you had a clone up and getting put in the corner. A list after a full screen sprint up doesnt have many options other than to chill and wait for your stamina to come back, so its up to you whether you want to play aggro SD or patient A-list, but its only relevant in like 7 or 8 matchups.

 

[Asodimazze]

I think Stunt Double is underestimated, I would say it is on par with A-List.
It's pressure is not worse than A-List if you take into account that after a mimic you don't use any general resources to put pressure on your opponent...even with 0 stamina and 0 meter he can still do the job.

The mid shadow kick projectile also helps a lot as a form of counter zoning against the character that can low profile A-List forceball while shooting projectiles, like Liu Kang or Kung Jin shaolin.

Stunt Double is probably better than A-list in many matchups. On top of my mind I would say Liu Kang, Kung Jin shaolin, Sub-Zero gm...but there are probably others

 

[smokey]

I think Stunt Double is underestimated, I would say it is on par with A-List.
It's pressure is not worse than A-List if you take into account that after a mimic you don't use any general resources to put pressure on your opponent...even with 0 stamina and 0 meter he can still do the job.

The mid shadow kick projectile also helps a lot as a form of counter zoning against the character that can low profile A-List forceball while shooting projectiles, like Liu Kang or Kung Jin shaolin.

Stunt Double is probably better than A-list in many matchups. On top of my mind I would say Liu Kang, Kung Jin shaolin, Sub-Zero gm...but there are probably others

Liu kang and shaolin kung jin low projectiles go under the clone shadowkicks.

 

[Error404]

The only one I really feel like SD does way better than a-list is Raiden. SDs fireball is more useful since he can't superman it for free and the match is mostly fought in the corner , where SD shines. Other than that I feel like A-list is better.

 

[DrFolmer]

Stunt Double just looks so cool bruh

 

[Wam-Zlay]

Stunt Double just looks so cool bruh

this.

A-List Nutpunch is just too slow for my needs.
Also yellow > green by far.
So SD > A-List -> More Dmg, little bit less pressure.

There are only 2 things which suck in SD mimic whiffs and his projectile. Fix this stuff and he will be equal to A-List probably

 

[Name v.5.0]

A-List and SD vs Cryo Sub are both 5-5. As long as you dont do something unsafe, you'll be just fine. You cant let Cyro get the opportunity to punish.

I think SD may even have a slight advantage over A-List due to corner carry and punishment of a blocked B2.

 

[Derptile]

I'd say SD for Kano and A-List for Liu Kang.

SD is probably just as good as A-list overall, it's just that he's not as immediately rewarding since he has to set up trait, but when it's up you become alot more threatening.

 

[LeftOverShark]

this.

A-List Nutpunch is just too slow for my needs.
Also yellow > green by far.
So SD > A-List -> More Dmg, little bit less pressure.

There are only 2 things which suck in SD mimic whiffs and his projectile. Fix this stuff and he will be equal to A-List probably

But ex nut punch in alist though.... The delay is catches most players, even experienced ones, off guard and even if they do block the delay they usually don't have a punish ready in time and the block stun makes it hard for most characters to punish as is. This is my experience with the variation though.

 

[Thanilla Ice]

What about the actual A-List/Stunt Double MU? Doesn't SD beat A-List?

 

[Wam-Zlay]

But ex nut punch in alist though.... The delay is catches most players, even experienced ones, off guard and even if they do block the delay they usually don't have a punish ready in time and the block stun makes it hard for most characters to punish as is. This is my experience with the variation though.

yea the ex punch is good that´s true.

 

[Name v.5.0]

What about the actual A-List/Stunt Double MU? Doesn't SD beat A-List?

I don't think so actually. Oddly enough, A-List green ball zoning is superior to anything SD throws out, and I think A-List has a superior close game.

 

[Dja_Homies]

What about the actual A-List/Stunt Double MU? Doesn't SD beat A-List?

Me and @EGP_Awesomo ran the mu alot offline and we have both come to an agreement that alist wins/does better in that mu due to alist projectiles being able to zone better than stunt double and overall better pressure for that mu while stunt double has to reload. He can expand more if I'm missing some stuff.

 

[Wam-Zlay]

@Dja_Homies yea the zoning part is the most annoying thing imo

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Me and @EGP_Awesomo ran the mu alot offline and we have both come to an agreement that alist wins/does better in that mu due to alist projectiles being able to zone better than stunt double and overall better pressure for that mu while stunt double has to reload. He can expand more if I'm missing some stuff.

Better zoning. better pressure(makes it harder for SD to be able to load consistently) punishing ex nutpunch is a 1 frame link (It pushes too far back for stand 1 so Ive only been able to hit f3, stand 2 might work but I need to check). And with johnnys best footsies being f3 being able to easily convert into a full combo or continue further pressure, A-list just wins on basically all fronts

 

[IrishMantis]

I think Stunt Double is underestimated, I would say it is on par with A-List.
It's pressure is not worse than A-List if you take into account that after a mimic you don't use any general resources to put pressure on your opponent...even with 0 stamina and 0 meter he can still do the job.

The mid shadow kick projectile also helps a lot as a form of counter zoning against the character that can low profile A-List forceball while shooting projectiles, like Liu Kang or Kung Jin shaolin.

Stunt Double is probably better than A-list in many matchups. On top of my mind I would say Liu Kang, Kung Jin shaolin, Sub-Zero gm...but there are probably others

Think they fix 113 RS it's not on par but when they do I'll agred

 

[KHAOTIC_SWIFT]

I've been playing cage since the start of the game and it feels like SD would be there better variation. The reason why I say that is bcuz a-list is very stamina reliant... I love a list variation but I feel if I have to break then I lose my offense, I don't have frame traps or run cancels, but with SD if I break I still have and opportunity for a comeback...I can still apply my pressure without meter or stamina...and also the crazy damage I can get in the corner with just one bar..I am not down playing a list at all I'm just saying if don't have stamina then I don't have my offense

 

[Dizzy]

Honestly, I feel people are up playing SD a bit in this thread. I initially underrated it and I am beginning to see its strengths better, but A-List pressure and mixups is significantly better. SD pressure is very one dimensional. Also, in some MUs, it seems A-List zoning is actually better than SD. I think overall using main A-List while having a pocket SD for a few MUs might be ideal, if you want to use all Cage. All A-List or even all SD is viable I think, but if you main A-List it seems like picking up a pocket SD is fairly easy, and seems like it'd be worth it to spend the little extra time to become familiar with it. That led me to create this thread.

@GGA Dizzy SD is straight up worse than A-List no doubt, but in matches where the neutral game involves a lot more ducking and running rather than poking and spacing you need to factor in the stamina costs of A-List mixups. If you get in with no stamina you need to use a bar to stay + on block with no stamina, or you get in and its straight away your opponents turn which could end with you full screen anyway.
This is pretty much the ONLY reasoning that makes SD shine above A-list for ANY matchup other than GM Sub. When you get in as SD you are in their face at least +10 advantage, if they get opened up they are losing 30-40% if you had a clone up and getting put in the corner. A list after a full screen sprint up doesnt have many options other than to chill and wait for your stamina to come back, so its up to you whether you want to play aggro SD or patient A-list, but its only relevant in like 7 or 8 matchups.

Very good point about the stamina. Chars with good ground game that also zone out Cage, you really only get to use your stamina for pressure/mixups off a nut punch in A-List since you often have to use it to get in a desired range. I think SD could be useful in those MUs, if we properly identify them.

 

[LeftOverShark]

@smokey @GGA Dizzy I agree, A-list does relay hevily on stamina for hus run cancels and presure, but on hit there are a few strings that you can dash cancel from to conserve stamina. It is very useful in certain curcumstances.

 

[Dizzy]

@smokey @GGA Dizzy I agree, A-list does relay hevily on stamina for hus run cancels and presure, but on hit there are a few strings that you can dash cancel from to conserve stamina. It is very useful in certain curcumstances.

Indeed. A-List uses this in the same way that SD uses f34. A safe way to use F3 as a check when they are out of resources (still need 25% stamina for A-List). The reward is much higher in A-List if you can consistently link 113 NP on hit though.

 

[Death]

Me and Rebelo have ran this MU probably a thousand times and I probably would give it a slight adv for A list or 5-5. But maybe Stunt Double beats GM?? Not sure but in theory I can see SD being good for GM but I dont think A list is completely helpless here. Its actually a really fun MU imo.

 

[IrishMantis]

But keep in mind SD relies and a unique resource... Mimics, you need to be good at getting them out and you have to wait 7 real time seconds

 

[LeftOverShark]

Indeed. A-List uses this in the same way that SD uses f34. A safe way to use F3 as a check when they are out of resources (still need 25% stamina for A-List). The reward is much higher in A-List if you can consistently link 113 NP on hit though.

It is a better option to go for the guranteed damage. I really only use the dash cancels to conserve stamina, carry oppenets, and bait out reversals on block.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Me and Rebelo have ran this MU probably a thousand times and I probably would give it a slight adv for A list or 5-5. But maybe Stunt Double beats GM?? Not sure but in theory I can see SD being good for GM but I dont think A list is completely helpless here. Its actually a really fun MU imo.

I still honestly think SDJC beats GM Sub 6-4. It's easier for JC to get a life lead, to which he can protect very well and at that point you've taken away Sub's greatest strength. B2 is dangerous for him to use because of punishes up to and around 40%. You can bait slides for full combo punish....the list goes on. It boils down to Sub cant effectively use his clone which is what gives him all his power.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Honestly, I feel people are up playing SD a bit in this thread.

He's fine ( I have to add this because it's mandatory in a JC forum), but some people are a little...enthusiastic, about how good he is.