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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

What is your favorite Variation?

  • War God

    Votes: 170 42.0%
  • Sun God

    Votes: 139 34.3%
  • Blood God

    Votes: 61 15.1%
  • All Equally

    Votes: 35 8.6%

  • Total voters
    405

RYX

BIG PUSHER
THEORY TIME

I'm gonna wager that with Blood God Totems:
- More health return/meter drain fixed on Blood
- Less damage taken in Obsidian

-Faster recovery either means we're now at + off 114 cancels and less - in other strings or that we may be able to follow up strings with better combos.

my dick hard

edit: just realized Sun Choke has more advantage on hit too. damn, the pressure gonna be real
 
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Belial

Noob
1)Kotal Kahn (Blood God) – Increased effectiveness of Obsidian & Blood Totems
Obsidian totem now reduces damage taken by 50% instead of 33%
Applications: if throw is done immediately after totem you have enough time to safely cut, which now deals 5% under OT. Since this re-introduces OT into KK gameplay greatly it passively enhances Crystal Totem, as it makes possible a scenario of having both cut boost and CT own. God knows, maybe even 90%+ combos will see play?

Blood totem now gives much more meter (average meter gain off a combo is almost 1/2 bar)
Applications: Still pretty useless outside of f1b2 mid combo, which will generate about 1/3 bar and 6% health
Your f2/f1b2 combos will give you about 1/2 bar and 10% health

2) Kotal Kahn (Blood God) – Totems have 5 less recovery frames
This is huge, I will need to do further testing, but just looking at my guide you will realize that most wakeups scenarios are now much better. More info later

3) Kotal Kahn – Air Takedown / Anti-Air Throw should no longer sometimes trade with jumping attacks
This isnt fixed as far as it matters. Every stupid air atack still beats air grab, d2 still works better that air grab too.

4) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - Soul Scorch / Soul Scorch have 5 less recovery frames
Scorch was crap before it is still crap now, even more so, since throws got buffed no sane person will ever trade charge levels for this.

5) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - God Choke (all 3 levels) damage increased by 3
lvl2 deals 14%, lvl3 deals 19% etc most combos got accordingly buffed. Assuming you have to land at least 3 times this is actually a 9% buff. At least we get more armor damage than Shinnok.

6) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) – God Choke (all 3 levels) increased hit advantage by 10
Need master Quark here.

I will try to update when possible

PS: No fix for parry ...
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
1)Kotal Kahn (Blood God) – Increased effectiveness of Obsidian & Blood Totems
Obsidian totem now reduces damage taken by 50% instead of 33%
Applications: if throw is done immediately after totem you have enough time to safely cut, which now deals 5% under OT. Since this re-introduces OT into KK gameplay greatly it passively enhances Crystal Totem, as it makes possible a scenario of having both cut boost and CT own. God knows, maybe even 90%+ combos will see play?

Blood totem now gives much more meter (average meter gain off a combo is almost 1/2 bar)
Applications: Still pretty useless outside of f1b2 mid combo, which will generate about 1/3 bar and 6% health
Your f2/f1b2 combos will give you about 1/2 bar and 10% health

2) Kotal Kahn (Blood God) – Totems have 5 less recovery frames
This is huge, I will need to do further testing, but just looking at my guide you will realize that most wakeups scenarios are now much better. More info later

3) Kotal Kahn – Air Takedown / Anti-Air Throw should no longer sometimes trade with jumping attacks
This isnt fixed as far as it matters. Every stupid air atack still beats air grab, d2 still works better that air grab too.

4) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - Soul Scorch / Soul Scorch have 5 less recovery frames
Scorch was crap before it is still crap now, even more so, since throws got buffed no sane person will ever trade charge levels for this.

5) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) - God Choke (all 3 levels) damage increased by 3
lvl2 deals 14%, lvl3 deals 19% etc most combos got accordingly buffed. Assuming you have to land at least 3 times this is actually a 9% buff. At least we get more armor damage than Shinnok.

6) Kotal Kahn (Sun God) – God Choke (all 3 levels) increased hit advantage by 10
Need master Quark here.

I will try to update when possible

PS: No fix for parry ...
Sun god now has option selectable safejumps off of both l1 and l2 sun choke

ppl hit by l3 sun choke can no longer jump back to avoid run into f2

this patch is super fucking good.

most important of all, air throw buff, if truly fixed, makes this char top tier. in theory we have an invincible 1 bar 32% anti air with a char who has the best footsies and our bnb does even MORE damage.
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
anyone have the frame data on his totem cancels now? I'm pretty sure it was close to neutral or slightly - before on 114 and 4, it should be either 0 or slightly + on block now

which is a pretty good tradeoff for lack of strong mix-ups in blood god, i'm definitely liking the changes so far, not to mention his f1b2~totem combo might recover fast enough to sneak more damage in
 

Belial

Noob
As far as it goes this patch doesnt fix much for anyone, fundamental problems stay and there doenst seem to be a reason to keep it this way. Maybe devs are trying to empower characters strong sides instead of fixing their weak sides, just to make a different characters, but as long as parry and/or air grap is left unchanged there is no fix for sun and blood god.

KK "footsies" are greatly overrated, its not that great at all, if even. Footsies are first of all ability to control space and though connected, but not limited to range of your pokes. While d4 is great but is not intimidating enough by itself and you have no projectiles to ask for jumps or wiffs, not many options to put pressure on your opponent. If you need an example of great footsies that would be Mileena in my opinion, Cassie is also pretty good in that department, as she can threaten you with mixup at close range , projectiles from afar and b1 as a great get in of wiff punishment tool. Combining that options make her a great footsie character as she can always put you in a spot she wants you in and bait a mistake. Against Kotal your opponent can just "sit it out" and eventually gain positional advantage. Kotal actually plays footsies against himself all the time, as he HAS to keep himself in a certain range to be able to threaten opponent at all, while opponent can capitalize on that.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
As far as it goes this patch doesnt fix much for anyone, fundamental problems stay and there doenst seem to be a reason to keep it this way. Maybe devs are trying to empower characters strong sides instead of fixing their weak sides, just to make a different characters, but as long as parry and/or air grap is left unchanged there is no fix for sun and blood god.

KK "footsies" are greatly overrated, its not that great at all, if even. Footsies are first of all ability to control space and though connected, but not limited to range of your pokes. While d4 is great but is not intimidating enough by itself and you have no projectiles to ask for jumps or wiffs, not many options to put pressure on your opponent. If you need an example of great footsies that would be Mileena in my opinion, Cassie is also pretty good in that department, as she can threaten you with mixup at close range , projectiles from afar and b1 as a great get in of wiff punishment tool. Combining that options make her a great footsie character as she can always put you in a spot she wants you in and bait a mistake. Against Kotal your opponent can just "sit it out" and eventually gain positional advantage. Kotal actually plays footsies against himself all the time, as he HAS to keep himself in a certain range to be able to threaten opponent at all, while opponent can capitalize on that.
I very heavily disagree.

It's a law of fighting games that people want to move, everyone moves. People will move because they want to impose themselves on you and avoid having you start your shit up close.

KK has excelent normals, some of the best in the game, he can punish whiffed jump ins better than 90% of the cast, movement is clipped by f2 for very high damage, he has a good anti air in d2, best down pokes in the game and more.

I happen to play @LionHeart in the mileena matchup and I can tell you that is not the case. Mileena is a worse footsies character than Kotal.

Even his worst variations were at least mid tier and there were few matchups in which you needed a variation change, these changes leave him close to top tier in my opinion. You have subzero's ice aura meterlessly and with less recovery? You can be even more + than he is doing it? You have 48% bnbs off of F2? A variation with good mindgames and an armoured overhead combo starter?

This character is very strong now. He almost has zangief's damage in command grabs with some of the best footsies in the game.

You don't need projectiles to make people whiff or move. I've played way too much adon to know that. Kotal is an up close character, of course he prefers a certain distance, midscreen and closer. One variation has armour out of its ass whose main purpose is to mindfuck your opponent with, the first thing I thought of when I saw EX OSS was that I solved my anti air problems and that I can bait people to duck and then slaughter them for it. On top of it it can be option selected to blow up through a myriad of things, certain characters CANNOT wakeup against you because of the option selects you have with that move.

Another variation has an effective potential 300/400% life if played with the correct totem and can recover life on top of it, having an obsidian totem means it takes twice as long to lose the health you gain from sun ray, 1% tick per half a second is 2% whenever you get hit with obsidian totem up. Blood offering is now 5% with obsidian and the synergy is absolutely amazing, you can actually use this move. In previous cases you wouldn't because it's often a waste, now not only does it cost less but you take less damage in general with the totem up so you effectively have more life, you can match your opponent hitpoint to hitpoint even when it comes to chip damage. Zoners now deal almost no damage, someone like Kenshi has to spend a bar to do 14% damage to you off of a reversal man.

Sun god's choke did a decent chunk of damage and now does the best command grab damage in the entire game and almost a 5th of the opponent's lifebar, people will press buttons and do dumb shit to avoid that. A flat damage bonus is extremely strong because if you hit you opponent with 3 L3 command grabs, that's a total of 15% extra damage you've done in total. And his armour now does damage that is considered discouraging, nobody wants to eat a 19% unblockable that leads into setups with the +10 hit advantage. Not to mention the ease of landing more command grabs considering the L1 and L2 ones now are safejumps. And his BNBS now do upwards of 48% without offering.

I don't understand how Kotal is bad. He never was bad, just painfuly mediocre. Now he's a very strong character.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Increased effectiveness of Obsidian totem...care to elaborate? Like 50%? 40? armor? I think Sun God may actually now have a frame trap off of Soul Scorch, that's pretty neat. I don't think it's huge since you can't use it repeatedly for pressure, but anything that makes the move more attractive is nice.


I'm definitely happy about a lot of these changes. I might actually be able to PLAY Jacqui now. No randomly whiffing combos based on the opponents breathe cycle? Be still my heart!


Oh well, PC probably won't get it for another few weeks anyways. I heard that we're supposed to finally get the Kung Jin and Raiden nerfs today. Neat.
 
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Belial

Noob
I very heavily disagree.
I don't understand how Kotal is bad. He never was bad, just painfuly mediocre. Now he's a very strong character.
Which Kotal are we talking, exactly? b/c no, he is not, it is not just damage, ability to enforce it what matters and ability to get away with it. Mileena has roll thats basically immune to jumps and can punish "jump ins" and most wiffs better that Kotal also she has a long reaching hitconfirmable into full combo strings on top of her excellent zoning, AND she has an impossible to AA jumps. And by the way her d4 and d3 is pretty amazing too, with hitstun of 15-21 and good block numbers.

It's a law of fighting games that people want to move, everyone moves. People will move because they want to impose themselves on you and avoid having you start your shit up close.
what kind of law is that. People dont move just because they feel incompellable urge to do so , they move to make something happen. That is deplete your life bar or stop you from depleting theirs. One character who has better tools to do so in a particular MU is the one who has an advantage. Footsies is the art of being able to take advantage of positioning - to apply your better tools and/or deny your opponent his better tools. Kotal is okay at it, maybe good(especially WG), but in no way AMAZING. KK cannot threaten opponent with anything but "punishing a wiff" meaning if he just tries to minimize his wiffs or play around it you do not have "plan B". And even if you do have something like "annoy him with throws" there are still things like risk/reward ratio. You're saying KK's great at punishing wiffed jumps, but why in the first place would your opponent jump at you at a range where it will wiff? Poking him with 2% d4? Maybe in some MU you can get them doing that from half screen away, otherwise it is you who need to go forward so jumps will wiff, thus its your opponent who controls space. You need to take action - he does not. You said it yourself, once people start punishing your f2 f1b2 and f12 KK "normals" will not look so great.

Overall Im not saying he is just plain bad or anything, just that this patch is no big deal and all the hype is really misplaced. You tend to exagerrate his strength but if you look at better characters like Quan Chi, Kung Jin, Raiden, Sonya, Cassie etc there is just no comparision. Blood God buffs are good, but even if he will become a really strong character due to this he will remain a "free play" top tier. B/c in tournament execution heavy characters that get more damage from one good read will always lose to simple characters who deal small damage but have an easy time setting it up.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Which Kotal are we talking, exactly? b/c no, he is not, it is not just damage, ability to enforce it what matters and ability to get away with it. Mileena has roll thats basically immune to jumps and can punish "jump ins" and most wiffs better that Kotal also she has a long reaching hitconfirmable into full combo strings on top of her excellent zoning, AND she has an impossible to AA jumps. And by the way her d4 and d3 is pretty amazing too, with hitstun of 15-21 and good block numbers.

what kind of law is that. People dont move just because they feel incompellable urge to do so , they move to make something happen. That is deplete your life bar or stop you from depleting theirs. One character who has better tools to do so in a particular MU is the one who has an advantage. Footsies is the art of being able to take advantage of positioning - to apply your better tools and/or deny your opponent his better tools. Kotal is okay at it, maybe good(especially WG), but in no way AMAZING. KK cannot threaten opponent with anything but "punishing a wiff" meaning if he just tries to minimize his wiffs or play around it you do not have "plan B". And even if you do have something like "annoy him with throws" there are still things like risk/reward ratio. You're saying KK's great at punishing wiffed jumps, but why in the first place would your opponent jump at you at a range where it will wiff? Poking him with 2% d4? Maybe in some MU you can get them doing that from half screen away, otherwise it is you who need to go forward so jumps will wiff, thus its your opponent who controls space. You need to take action - he does not. You said it yourself, once people start punishing your f2 f1b2 and f12 KK "normals" will not look so great.

Overall Im not saying he is just plain bad or anything, just that this patch is no big deal and all the hype is really misplaced. You tend to exagerrate his strength but if you look at better characters like Quan Chi, Kung Jin, Raiden, Sonya, Cassie etc there is just no comparision. Blood God buffs are good, but even if he will become a really strong character due to this he will remain a "free play" top tier. B/c in tournament execution heavy characters that get more damage from one good read will always lose to simple characters who deal small damage but have an easy time setting it up.
We have already established that F2 is punished by maybe 10% of the cast, let's not pretend it's super punishable, you even have a low profile D4 that lets you press buttons at - because it ignores most mids.

F12 is something you throw out once every game maybe, not something you rely on. F1B2 you deserve to be punished for because you shouldn't be throwing that out unless you're sure it's going to launch someone.

Mileena's jump is good, Kotal's also is if used sparingly. Her long reaching normal is good but it doesn't actually reach as far as you're saying, her zoning is not excelent whatsoever, only there to annoy you and her damage is way lower than yours.

Are you asking why people whiff? Why do people whiff? Because they make mistakes. Everyone does and everyone will whiff something. The risk reward is there with throws, they move in order to punish your move, that's what you punish in all fighting games, them stopping you from doing something and then you set up sun ray and totem in blood god which is the only variation forced to throw your opponent. War god has tons of mixups that are unsafe only against certain characters and a 15f overhead that gives a full combo in a game based around people ducking to block and poke low which also serves as an anti air, anti crossup tool and reactionary whiff punisher. Sun god has command grab.

Every variation can open your opponent up and force them to do something, people press buttons vs sun god, jump or armour vs war god, play the patient game vs blood god.