Match-up Discussion KILLER FROST - Official Community Match-Up Discussion

[Rickyraws]

Aww, off to the Dark .Gif's II forum.

You wouldn't understand...

 

[Vak Phoenix]

is it just me or hawkgirl matchup isnt that hard...?

 

[xKhaoTik]

is it just me or hawkgirl matchup isnt that hard...?

It's not that hard but It's not that easy either.

I haven't ran the MU since I picked up wowo tho.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

It's not that hard but It's not that easy either.

I haven't ran the MU since I picked up wowo tho.

see hg is my 2nd main and i know how the ge out of pressure and also when the bitch is hovering over or is trying air mace charge 2ce when im on the ground i just j1 her... and go for 1,1,3,3 slide..

 

[RiBBz22]

is it just me or hawkgirl matchup isnt that hard...?

If Hawkgirl plays perfectly it is pretty annoying and a tougher match, as soon as Hawkgirl makes a mistake the matchup shifts in a big way. A lot of the matchup comes down to spacing/baiting. Any boot stomp that whiffs when you are close should be half Hawkgirl's lifebar and a 50-50 setup.

 

[@MylesWright_]

If Hawkgirl plays perfectly it is pretty annoying and a tougher match, as soon as Hawkgirl makes a mistake the matchup shifts in a big way. A lot of the matchup comes down to spacing/baiting. Any boot stomp that whiffs when you are close should be half Hawkgirl's lifebar and a 50-50 setup.

Because killer frost does 50% combos that end in a vortex

 

[RiBBz22]

Because killer frost does 50% combos that end in a vortex

Exactly, you need to level up your combo execution maybe I guess... Or are you arguing the most stupid point possible that you can't generalize mid-40's damage or more as "half life"? It has to be 50% to call something half-life, it can't be 50.5%, it can't be 49.97%. Stop saying stupid things.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Stop saying stupid things.

I thought the scenario of hawkgirl missing a dive kick at close range so killer frost can full combo punish it was pretty stupid. Hawkgirl is listed as 5-5 and the only explanation is 'it's annoying to catch her but when you do she dies.' You also stated that Killer Frost was Top 5 and we all know that wasn't stupid

 

[RiBBz22]

I thought the scenario of hawkgirl missing a dive kick at close range so killer frost can full combo punish it was pretty stupid.

I can't fix your reactions and execution issues. Sorry. Good Frost players should be punishing this.

 

[teh_kingdunch]

I've just played a set ft20 with a friend who has a really good HG. I didn't had much exp in this MU, so at first it was hard. Definitely annoying, but it's not that bad. Yeah you will take some chip or eat some mace charges, but 1 mistake from HG and your game begins. Also you are free to build meter and get trait, so 1 wrong guess on the vortex will pretty much end it. We were about even, I ended up winning the last 5 games, guess I adapted well. We also played various stages, like Asylum, Gotham rooftops and Strykers island.

 

[RiBBz22]

I've just played a set ft20 with a friend who has a really good HG. I didn't had much exp in this MU, so at first it was hard. Definitely annoying, but it's not that bad. Yeah you will take some chip or eat some mace charges, but 1 mistake from HG and your game begins. Also you are free to build meter and get trait, so 1 wrong guess on the vortex will pretty much end it. We were about even, I ended up winning the last 5 games, guess I adapted well. We also played various stages, like Asylum, Gotham rooftops and Strykers island.

Hawkgirl V Frost has always been one of those matches where I have felt it is more or less a 5-5, but is definitely not advantage Frost. If anything it is really slight advantage Hawkgirl. I have pretty much felt the same about this MU since the game came out, when I had her only losing to BA pre-patch and potentially Hawkgirl (pre-dlc completion).

For me personally, her hardest MU's are: MMH, Cyborg, Hawkgirl, and maybe Zod. The more I play Zod though the less hard it seems to get. What do you guys think about the Wonder Woman matchup? On paper it seems like she (WW) should have a slight advantage because of her aerial dominance. I have some experience against Forever King and I feel like you can run away pretty effectively in the MU, but on smaller stages it is tougher since you are cornering yourself quicker. D3 is also really good post slide.

 

[Madog32]

Hawkgirl V Frost has always been one of those matches where I have felt it is more or less a 5-5, but is definitely not advantage Frost. If anything it is really slight advantage Hawkgirl. I have pretty much felt the same about this MU since the game came out, when I had her only losing to BA pre-patch and potentially Hawkgirl (pre-dlc completion).

For me personally, her hardest MU's are: MMH, Cyborg, Hawkgirl, and maybe Zod. The more I play Zod though the less hard it seems to get. What do you guys think about the Wonder Woman matchup? On paper it seems like she (WW) should have a slight advantage because of her aerial dominance. I have some experience against Forever King and I feel like you can run away pretty effectively in the MU, but on smaller stages it is tougher since you are cornering yourself quicker. D3 is also really good post slide.

I'd agree with the MMH/Zod. I still have quite a hard time with BA myself, but that's me. I've been fighting the KF/HG matchup since day one, and while it is definitely not easy, I wouldn't say either really has an advantage. Its a good match to utilize TA combos since you can charge trait safely from full screen without worrying about anything HG does. She can be tricky to get out of the air, and most of them will be up there MOST of the time. Dashing/sliding completely under her to bait out heavenward stop usually proves successful for a good punish into vortex. But once she guesses right she can WExxTrait Cancel and it's right back to the skies with her! Also, she has a great D1 and will often be more than happy to mash it, so dont forget to take advantage of parry when she's pressuring you up close! You have to play patiently, bait with trait/dashes (and parry to build meter) when she's in the air, and learn the MC punish. Once you have that down, you should be more than equipped to handle that pigeon. Just dont let her get you in the corner!

I didn't used to be concerned about WoWo until I came across @Drizzle. I wasn't able to land a single win against her, and once she had me in the corner there is very little KF can do other than traitxxparry to bait a B2 and hope to get out. Othewise, she pretty much has you on lockdown and B2/D2 will keep you from getting out (and you'll get hella punished for trying). I've run quite a few matches with him (psn handle is loligagger, I believe) and have yet to figure out how to handle his corner game. Perhaps you guys have some tips?

 

[Sultan]

I think MMH is the definitive worst, a clear 4-6 with potential to get worse depending on the stage. Cyborg is one of those match-ups that's clearly in his favor but not difficult, if that makes any sense... he can get a serious stage advantage sometimes. Hawkgirl's annoying, if not even then barely in her favor. So I agree with you for the most part.

Zod is Frost's weirdest match-up, imo, and I think I see where you're coming from. Like, if we're playing on a stage like Batcave/Lagoon I feel that Frost has a slight advantage over Zod, but then there's a large number of stages, maybe like 1/3 of the stages or more, where Zod's interactable control sways the match-up to his favor.

WoWo could be slightly advantaged, but Frost controls the pace imo. She has to dance around daggers from the 3/4 screen, and despite her aerial control, every time she jumps she's leaving herself open to air-to-airs or anti-airs of some sort. It's on the Frost player to threaten her air game, and even though she can hurt us for it I think it's always worth going punch for punch with her air game. If she ever decides to play lame or sit on a health lead or something we can just build trait and meter with daggers, icebergs and whiffed parries - this usually makes her antsy, and if it doesn't we're building resources to mount a comeback if we need to. When she's close and playing her frame trap game she has to consider parry and mb.f3 and backdash. So long as you avoid getting cornered the match-up feels even to me. (I could simplify the match-up as: build meter, abuse mb.f3... profit)

 

[Madog32]

I think MMH is the definitive worst, a clear 4-6 with potential to get worse depending on the stage. Cyborg is one of those match-ups that's clearly in his favor but not difficult, if that makes any sense... he can get a serious stage advantage sometimes. Hawkgirl's annoying, if not even then barely in her favor. So I agree with you for the most part.

Zod is Frost's weirdest match-up, imo, and I think I see where you're coming from. Like, if we're playing on a stage like Batcave/Lagoon I feel that Frost has a slight advantage over Zod, but then there's a large number of stages, maybe like 1/3 of the stages or more, where Zod's interactable control sways the match-up to his favor.

WoWo could be slightly advantaged, but Frost controls the pace imo. She has to dance around daggers from the 3/4 screen, and despite her aerial control, every time she jumps she's leaving herself open to air-to-airs or anti-airs of some sort. It's on the Frost player to threaten her air game, and even though she can hurt us for it I think it's always worth going punch for punch with her air game. If she ever decides to play lame or sit on a health lead or something we can just build trait and meter with daggers, icebergs and whiffed parries - this usually makes her antsy, and if it doesn't we're building resources to mount a comeback if we need to. When she's close and playing her frame trap game she has to consider parry and mb.f3 and backdash. So long as you avoid getting cornered the match-up feels even to me. (I could simplify the match-up as: build meter, abuse mb.f3... profit)

Although, if you abuse MBF3, a good WoWo will learn very quickly to mash D3 :-/ Especially post slide. She's safe against Parry and MBF3 with a D3, and will punish a MBF3 fully after you whiff her

 

[RiBBz22]

I think MMH is the definitive worst, a clear 4-6 with potential to get worse depending on the stage. Cyborg is one of those match-ups that's clearly in his favor but not difficult, if that makes any sense... he can get a serious stage advantage sometimes. Hawkgirl's annoying, if not even then barely in her favor. So I agree with you for the most part.

Zod is Frost's weirdest match-up, imo, and I think I see where you're coming from. Like, if we're playing on a stage like Batcave/Lagoon I feel that Frost has a slight advantage over Zod, but then there's a large number of stages, maybe like 1/3 of the stages or more, where Zod's interactable control sways the match-up to his favor.

WoWo could be slightly advantaged, but Frost controls the pace imo. She has to dance around daggers from the 3/4 screen, and despite her aerial control, every time she jumps she's leaving herself open to air-to-airs or anti-airs of some sort. It's on the Frost player to threaten her air game, and even though she can hurt us for it I think it's always worth going punch for punch with her air game. If she ever decides to play lame or sit on a health lead or something we can just build trait and meter with daggers, icebergs and whiffed parries - this usually makes her antsy, and if it doesn't we're building resources to mount a comeback if we need to. When she's close and playing her frame trap game she has to consider parry and mb.f3 and backdash. So long as you avoid getting cornered the match-up feels even to me. (I could simplify the match-up as: build meter, abuse mb.f3... profit)

Yeah it has always felt even to me, but I am not playing the best WW's so that is why I am thinking it could potentially be bad. King is good, and I play some pretty good ones online, but I wouldn't say they are playing to her full potential. And with that said there is plenty I can do better too in that respect. Daggers being two hits is really important in the MU because it forces her to have to deal with them instead of being able to parry them free like some other projectiles...

 

[RiBBz22]

Although, if you abuse MBF3, a good WoWo will learn very quickly to mash D3 :-/ Especially post slide. She's safe against Parry and MBF3 with a D3, and will punish a MBF3 fully after you whiff her

Also, her wakeups don't seem terribly good. Most of the time I find myself baiting out the lasso spin as WW's go-to wakeup and it is an easy whiff punish...especially when they are trying to avoid a 50-50 attempt off a meterless vortex setup after you dash in. Just the normal dash back out and slide as the punishment routine...then you are playing KF's game again, being forced to guess your way out.

 

[Madog32]

Also, her wakeups don't seem terribly good. Most of the time I find myself baiting out the lasso spin as WW's go-to wakeup and it is an easy whiff punish...especially when they are trying to avoid a 50-50 attempt off a meterless vortex setup after you dash in. Just the normal dash back out and slide as the punishment routine...then you are playing KF's game again, being forced to guess your way out.

again, just don't let her corner you :-P

And her wakeups are ok to deal with. But i've found there is very little you can do post-slide other than grab or dash. If you try MBF3 or parry and she is keen on mashind D3, you will always lose out. This was my issue when stuck in the corner. When wowo has you in the corner (right were she wants you), it seems her best option is to not NOT lay on the constant pressure, but to just let killer frost sweat it out in the corner. If she attempts to jump or dash out, a B2 or D2 will knock her right back down. If you slide, you're only true safe option is to dash back or block. Attempting to continue pressure after slide didn't pay off once for me. Either tactic keeps KF pinned in the corner with very few options.

But you're right about baiting out the spin. Its a very easy whiff punish, especially out of the meterless vortex. But once she knocks me into the corner, I may as well just put down the controller :-P

Maybe it's a bit easier to read her offline??

I definitely still need some practice in the matchup when the WoWo really knows what she is doing

 

[Drizzle]

WoWo can parry daggers as long as you time it right. Meterless vortex is a risk because if your f3 gets backdashed you're either eating 41% + a safe jump that beats all of your wake-ups or 30% into a mid-screen OTG. Either way, waking up doesn't really work. There's really no need for WoWo to jump unless she's reading a slide or reacting to daggers. She can walk you down until she's in b2 range, and then your options aren't very good. Your walk speed sucks, so trying to make b2 whiff isn't easy; you can't jump because of d2; and dash into anything can get punished on reaction. You do have parry, but it's not like you're reacting to a 17-frame overhead. The post-slide being nonexistent basically means that KF is the one getting mixed up after she starts respecting d3. I feel like if WoWo has a life lead, gets into b2 range and just sits there, there's little you can do about it except hope she gets hit by a random slide or makes some other kind of mistake. It's a lot easier for WoWo to come back from a life deficit than it is for KF.

 

[Madog32]

WoWo can parry daggers as long as you time it right. Meterless vortex is a risk because if your f3 gets backdashed you're either eating 41% + a safe jump that beats all of your wake-ups or 30% into a mid-screen OTG. Either way, waking up doesn't really work. There's really no need for WoWo to jump unless she's reading a slide or reacting to daggers. She can walk you down until she's in b2 range, and then your options aren't very good. Your walk speed sucks, so trying to make b2 whiff isn't easy; you can't jump because of d2; and dash into anything can get punished on reaction. You do have parry, but it's not like you're reacting to a 17-frame overhead. The post-slide being nonexistent basically means that KF is the one getting mixed up after she starts respecting d3. I feel like if WoWo has a life lead, gets into b2 range and just sits there, there's little you can do about it except hope she gets hit by a random slide or makes some other kind of mistake. It's a lot easier for WoWo to come back from a life deficit than it is for KF.

agreed. Both daggers were getting parried pretty regularly, and most of my game was simply revolving around trying to avoid getting caught in the corner! The parry is really our only option, but its quite tough to read the B2. I had a little luck baiting a B2 in the corner by tapping 4xDB1, but thats not really something to rely on. And you're right, there really is no post slide game. If wowo blocks, you better back off

And from experience, you seem to be right on - once WoWo has the life lead and is in B2 range, especially in the corner, KF better be sweating bullets...

 

[@MylesWright_]

Wonder Woman wins 8-2

 

[Sultan]

WoWo can parry daggers as long as you time it right. Meterless vortex is a risk because if your f3 gets backdashed you're either eating 41% + a safe jump that beats all of your wake-ups or 30% into a mid-screen OTG. Either way, waking up doesn't really work. There's really no need for WoWo to jump unless she's reading a slide or reacting to daggers. She can walk you down until she's in b2 range, and then your options aren't very good. Your walk speed sucks, so trying to make b2 whiff isn't easy; you can't jump because of d2; and dash into anything can get punished on reaction. You do have parry, but it's not like you're reacting to a 17-frame overhead. The post-slide being nonexistent basically means that KF is the one getting mixed up after she starts respecting d3. I feel like if WoWo has a life lead, gets into b2 range and just sits there, there's little you can do about it except hope she gets hit by a random slide or makes some other kind of mistake. It's a lot easier for WoWo to come back from a life deficit than it is for KF.

Meterless vortex isn't a risk, if you time the f3 set-up meaty back dash is not an option. You also have to worry about knockdown set-ups into meaty command throw, which force reversals... and you have to worry about mb.f3/b1~slide - both eat your reversals. WoWo's wake-up game is free to Frost's oki.

Frost has better wake-up options than WoWo. That can't be overlooked. If you don't safe jump we don't have to respect your oki, slide and parry threaten your options - and if you do and we have meter we can just pushblock your safe jump set-up away.

So, it seems to me we don't have to respect your wake-up game, you have to respect ours - meaning you have to respect our oki, and we don't have to respect yours. Without the corner you don't have consistent momentum. We can create momentum anywhere on the screen - so what does that say about comebacks?

And I don't get the walking us down thing. You just admitted daggers force jumps... and daggers build meter. And while your inching forward we're building trait. If that happens, every parry is 60%+, which helps alot in the admittedly terrible b2 range scenario.

I will admit, if the advantage is there, it's on WoWo's side. But that's only because our tools are meter dependent and yours aren't, and WoWo will force a number of pushblocks throughout the match. The way I feel about the match-up is similar to yours from Frost's perspective, if I get the health lead, you have to start taking risks that favor us.

 

[xKhaoTik]

MMH beats her for sure. No need to explain.

We just acknowledged that cyborg beats her and there's plenty of explanations.

I admitted to myself that HG beats her, then I admitted it to trepound. Its nowhere near as tough as MMH and is easier than cyborg, but HG has a slight advantage. @RunwayMafia should happy that I've seen the light lol.

@astronout feels as if WoWo beats her. The more I play the MU from both parties, the more I start to agree. WoWo probably has the best post slide option in the game, out damages her, out footsies her, has complete air dominance, parries her zoning, and is a complete dick with a life lead. KF gives her trouble as well and parry really fucks up her pressure, a well timed spike with hit her if she parries dagger, a delayed MBF3 will hit her D3 after a blocked slide, and the meterless vortex is really really good in this MU. It all comes down to her has the life lead but WoWo has the overall better tools in this MU. Slight advantage for her.

Zod is a 5-5. This is a MU I play A LOT. Its definitely a weird one tho and is one that requires a lot of thinking from both parties. @Relaxedstate helped me a bit with the MU lately and the more I play it, the more I think its even. I also played Viking305 at Winter Brawl and I did extremely well. Pig is dead set on it being even and he thinks the Frost players need to work on the MU.

 

[RiBBz22]

WoWo can parry daggers as long as you time it right. Meterless vortex is a risk because if your f3 gets backdashed you're either eating 41% + a safe jump that beats all of your wake-ups or 30% into a mid-screen OTG. Either way, waking up doesn't really work. There's really no need for WoWo to jump unless she's reading a slide or reacting to daggers. She can walk you down until she's in b2 range, and then your options aren't very good. Your walk speed sucks, so trying to make b2 whiff isn't easy; you can't jump because of d2; and dash into anything can get punished on reaction. You do have parry, but it's not like you're reacting to a 17-frame overhead. The post-slide being nonexistent basically means that KF is the one getting mixed up after she starts respecting d3. I feel like if WoWo has a life lead, gets into b2 range and just sits there, there's little you can do about it except hope she gets hit by a random slide or makes some other kind of mistake. It's a lot easier for WoWo to come back from a life deficit than it is for KF.

Good points, I agree with a lot. Every WW I have played gives up on parrying daggers after a while, so you may be able to parry them with perfect timing...but for the sake of discussion I am going to conclude that the WW player is going to have to deal with them. The meterless vortex is a good meta game with both players receiving ample rewards for the risks that they are taking. It is the Frost player's responsibility to be clever here to get hits to convert. Let's play sometime I am sure I need to level up some in the MU, and maybe you can make me a believer about parrying daggers.

 

[RiBBz22]

MMH beats her for sure. No need to explain.

We just acknowledged that cyborg beats her and there's plenty of explanations.

I admitted to myself that HG beats her, then I admitted it to trepound. Its nowhere near as tough as MMH and is easier than cyborg, but HG has a slight advantage.

@astronout feels as if WoWo beats her. The more I play the MU from both parties, the more I start to agree. WoWo probably has the best post slide option in the game, out damages her, out footsies her, has complete air dominance, parries her zoning, and is a complete dick with a life lead. KF gives her trouble as well and parry really fucks up her pressure, a well timed spike with hit her if she parries dagger, a delayed MBF3 will hit her D3 after a blocked slide, and the meterless vortex is really really good in this MU. It all comes down to her has the life lead but WoWo has the overall better tools in this MU. Slight advantage for her.

Zod is a 5-5. This is a MU I play A LOT. Its definitely a weird one tho and is one that requires a lot of thinking from both parties. @Relaxedstate helped me a bit with the MU lately and the more I play it, the more I think its even. I also played Viking305 at Winter Brawl and I did extremely well. Pig is dead set on it being even and he thinks the Frost players need to work on the MU.

It seems like everyone is kind of coming to a consensus lately about KF's bad matchups. I need to play more WW players to get a better feel for it , admittedly.

Zod I think it probably even as well. It isn't easy for Zod to get trait out for free because of iceberg so that is at least nice, making it less difficult to deal with than some other characters. Also, for some reason Zod feels way easier to trip guard with slide than other characters dealing with pre-emptive jump backs in slide situations. One of the things I actually hate about the MU is how godlike Zod's throw animation and recovery is...Post slide I think favors Frost a bit. Zod can do his push, which can't be parried/back-dashed/jumped...but if the Zod player is doing it a lot it is sort of a bill since you can just punish it with d1 slide or 111 into full combo. I play m2dave in casuals so I get some really good experience when I have a chance to play the character.

I guess when talking about the HG and Cyborg MU's, I definitely find a good Cyborg to be more annoying than a good Hawkgirl...so I guess that does say something about the MU. I tend to still think that HG is a 5-5 with a potential to be bad, but regardless of what you call it, it isn't like you would have to run to an alt to fight a HG if you wanted to go 100% Frost or something. Definitely winnable, and less annoying than Cyborg.

 

[Madog32]

MMH beats her for sure. No need to explain.

We just acknowledged that cyborg beats her and there's plenty of explanations.

I admitted to myself that HG beats her, then I admitted it to trepound. Its nowhere near as tough as MMH and is easier than cyborg, but HG has a slight advantage. @RunwayMafia should happy that I've seen the light lol.

@astronout feels as if WoWo beats her. The more I play the MU from both parties, the more I start to agree. WoWo probably has the best post slide option in the game, out damages her, out footsies her, has complete air dominance, parries her zoning, and is a complete dick with a life lead. KF gives her trouble as well and parry really fucks up her pressure, a well timed spike with hit her if she parries dagger, a delayed MBF3 will hit her D3 after a blocked slide, and the meterless vortex is really really good in this MU. It all comes down to her has the life lead but WoWo has the overall better tools in this MU. Slight advantage for her.

Zod is a 5-5. This is a MU I play A LOT. Its definitely a weird one tho and is one that requires a lot of thinking from both parties. @Relaxedstate helped me a bit with the MU lately and the more I play it, the more I think its even. I also played Viking305 at Winter Brawl and I did extremely well. Pig is dead set on it being even and he thinks the Frost players need to work on the MU.

I agree with most of this. Although I feel like I've had quite a bit of trouble getting even a delayed MBF3 to land against a WoWo who is just mashing D3. Maybe there are a few frames to grab her on, but online I havent' been able to get it at all. She just keeps pretty D3 and avoids MBF3, and her second one will obviously knock you down. Can get it to trade SOMETIMES, but i've now been conditioned to stop trying. Maybe I still need to work on this...

The HG matchup still feels pretty even to me. I must play this matchup every day for at least a few rounds, and never feel at a loss. But you do have to play patiently and you absolutely have to capitalize on any punishes you land. Luckily your chances of having trait charged are pretty good in this matchup, and you can punish for over 50% into vortex pretty regularly.