SaltShaker
In Zoning We Trust
If a mod could close my prior thread or the community let it die
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/kanos-hot-fix-nerf-was-it-justified.55779/
and use this one here I'd appreciate it. This one will be much better so I'd rather the hot fix specific talk stay in this thread.
First and foremost I'm making this thread to better explain why this nerf is such a big deal to many Kano players, while also apologizing for my massive amounts of rage last night. It is just very painful when you play this game as much as some of us do, spend our time and money traveling to locals (or some people majors), and are hit with unnecessary nerfs while almost the entire roster has been either allowed to keep ridiculously dirty stuff or buffed to the point that they are deadly. What I see that has become a huge problem in this community is people who do not play a certain character or have minimal MU Exp against a character show up in forums trying to tell people who have put in godly amounts of hours on him/her what is best or what is better than what. Why would I, someone who has never played Kenshi since MK9, show up and tell Pig or Immortal that they are overreacting saying Kenshi sucks because others think he is decent? Or pop up in Kitana threads and tell them how amazing Kitana is so the nerfs mean nothing? How would it make sense? It wouldn't. I would try to see their point of view because they have to be saying it for a reason. There are always people in each character forum willing to explain these things to those of us who do not use that character. In Kano's case, a prime example of overreaction to a real buff has lead to a severe nerf that went too far.
So in this thread I will fully explain why this "buff", the ability to cancel strings into EX Buff for reduced damage and Damage Over Time Drain is actually a "nerf", a nerf that Kano did not need, why it makes him a weaker character overall, and alternatives that pretty much every single one of us Kano mains is in full agreement on.
Lets start here.
Since many people seem to not know this, Cutthroat did more damage prepatch. Yes. This is a fact. We were already doing 55% 2 bar optimal combos midscreen, 45% meterless punishes, meterless 50% corner combos, 1 bar 55% if your execution was on point, and we were finally putting it altogether in this variation with EX Buff. Most people do not use the character, let alone the variation, so they had no idea of his damage potential until they saw some stream telling them that Kano is actually in the game. So when I'm being told that he needed to be nerfed because he did "too much damage now", it doesn't make sense because no one complained about his damage for months until they saw a stream and read notes for less damage. His damage was more, not less.
Now lets evaluate EX Buffs previous usage. One of the greatest things about Cutt was EX Buff. You needed good timing and MU Exp to use it properly. For example, if you were fighting Scorpion, you could interrupt EX Teleport with EX Buff since it has armor, and counter with a 45% meterless F2 combo. Yes, we were doing these things. Or if you read a Sub-Zero slide on WU, you EX Buff counter into meterless 45%. Or on knockdown you get a free EX Buff into pressure, and if they guess wrong on the 50/50, well you get the idea. This is just a quick sense of how it was previously applied and why not a single person who ever played Cutt ever complained. Make B1 hit crouch block consistently by making it, say similar to Reptile's OH is the one and only thing you ever heard. EX Buff was perfect as it was.
Now they chose to "buff" Kano by adding the ability to cancel strings into EX Buff, and continuing the combo. Cool. To compensate, they lowered the damage significantly. Ok. Then they made the decision to nerf the damage even more while adding the DoT that regular buff gives, up to 15%. Really? Then why would I use it now? Where is the reward? I don't need more time to see that what was originally a really good buff that possibly could have used a little tweaking, has been bombed due to knee jerk reactions. The move is now a situational at best tool, while also killing what was special about Cutt. As always, I like to provide clear factual explanations when making a statement.
Here they are.
To follow along, lets use the Scorpion example. To play Cutt effectively you have to maximize damage because you have to use meter for everything and you build it back so slowly (more of why he shouldn't have been nerfed but we'll get to that. So if you catch an EX Teleport you interrupt with EX Buff, do 45% meterless F2 combo, and pressure his WU with the threat of a 50/50 while your Buff is still active. Very general way we all would react in that situation. NOW with the "buff" we have received, if you do this and only land a 37% combo. So that is an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get. On top of that, now we have two options post KD. We can either pressure their KD like we have done since April, or we can cancel EX Buff so we don't drain 15% health to lose 5-6%, and give them a free WU. So in short, we USED TO interrupt for 45% damage, while keeping leftover buff to hopefully land a hit for more big damage. NOW WE have an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get while losing 5% health and giving them a free WU, or an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get and applying pressure while losing up to 15% health.
Another talking point has been, "well SaltShaker, you can't expect him to be +6 and +8 and +100 after EX Buff in a string right and also be capable of all that damage can you"? My, no OUR response, to that is that yes, any string +14 after the cancel is too much, like B121, but the other ones are fine and in line with MKX. As I'm sure most of you don't know who don't use the character, a very effective strategy would be to do strings that jail into +9 on block EX Knives, and then apply the same exact pressure. This has served fine other than universal hitbox issues at time. The +frames are absolutely nothing new to Kano, or to half the roster. On hit after these +frames they used to lead to good wall carry combo into the previously deadly EX Buff on KD. Now in it's place is the "new EX Buff" which does significantly less damage, less damage than some of the 1 bar BnB's in other character forums, while also giving you the same scenario of either losing 5-6% health and halting all momentum or losing 15% health to continue pressure. Why would I do a 41% BnB and lose 5-6% health and be unable to pressure? Why would I do a 41% BnB and continue pressure and lose 15% health? Wouldn't I just do the original 35% BnB from EX Slice and apply pressure after KD the way I used to before this "buff" was given out? Unless I'm doing a significantly watered down 2 bar combo to end a round why would I ever use the current cancel over the old meta of EX Slice combos into pressure?
Now lets take it one step further. Anyone who has played Cutt can attest. How often do you have two bars? Another great thing about EX Buff was that it was an amazing comeback mechanic. Losing a round? Make a good read to counter with EX Buff or get a KD and EX Buff and you can steal a round with the right decisions. Now? Not so much. You might die trying to come back. To have two bars to cancel a string on block into a 50/50 starter will not be a common thing. Again, it will not happen often. If you have that much meter to spare with Cutt Kano you are likely losing and it wouldn't matter anyway. Now we are being told that spending a bar to cancel a string on block, into a possible 41% 50/50 1 Bar BnB, while having to end all pressure options to not lose more than 5-6%, is a good thing??? When we used to spend a bar for +9 on block, into a possible 50%+ 50/50 1 Bar BnB, while getting to keep all pressure and remaining buff power??? Really? How? I don't think more time can show me that using these two bars is superior to how we USED TO use two bars. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can explain.
I'm also being told that it is good in the corner. Ok. That is actually true. The only reason why I, and many others don't care is because the corner was one of, if not his biggest strength already. We were already pulling off 50% meterless and 65% 1 bar combos while buffed prepatch. This does not make his corner game "better", it just changes how it is applied.
Now no one is being unreasonable. Yes something had to change. Yes lowering the damage if it was going to combo fill may have been a good idea. Yes lowering the damage even more may have been a good idea. Yes adding 15% health DoT to EX Buff may have been a good idea. The glaring problem is that all of these things combined was a horrible idea and screams kneejerk all over it. One of those would have been a fair trade. Big damage but big health loss? Would have made sense. Regular damage but keep EX Buff clean? Would have made sense. Losing health doing BnB's on par with other cast members damage/setups, while losing or nerfing all of EX Buffs other strengths does not make sense.
The rage our community, and I mean community as in people who actually main the character, is reaching all time highs due to the feeling of being insulted. Insulted every time a patch rolls around and Kano gets some insignificant crap he doesn't need while others get super buffed. Insulted because people come in our forums telling us a nerf is a Shinnok buff. Insulted because top tiers get buffed while we get a pop up string in Commando. Insulted because they could have simply left the lower damage while NOT adding DoT so we can actually apply pressure with a pressure heavy character. Insulted because it has become apparent more than ever that Kano will be doomed to mediocrity while the majority of the cast will be looked after. Insulted because they took a variation that we ALL SAID needed nothing, buffed it, and then nerfed it worse than it ever was and had the nerve to call it a "buff".
Hopefully this better words what I was too upset to get across last night, and can help Poster I Don't Main Him But I Tried Him Once to truly see how we were MUCH better off before these changes. Almost all of us would prefer the old prepatch EX Buff back, and rightfully so.
@ando1184
@Youphemism
@LEGI0N47
@Hitoshura
@DougDFC
@Derptile
@Dean
@Kinetic Demise
@FlappyDaniel
@ESP-_BLACK
@VoyagersRevenge
@SM StarGazer
@Rude
@OG Mannimal
@Error
@Phosferrax
@Plop
@thlityoursloat
@PND_Ketchup
@HuttonMD
@MsMiharo
@Dukmunky
@EntropicByDesign
@Any other Kano main's sharing thoughts that I forgot
@Anyone who wants to be informed to the actual issue we are upset about
Derptile's Cliff Notes-
http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/kanos-hot-fix-nerf-was-it-justified.55779/
and use this one here I'd appreciate it. This one will be much better so I'd rather the hot fix specific talk stay in this thread.
First and foremost I'm making this thread to better explain why this nerf is such a big deal to many Kano players, while also apologizing for my massive amounts of rage last night. It is just very painful when you play this game as much as some of us do, spend our time and money traveling to locals (or some people majors), and are hit with unnecessary nerfs while almost the entire roster has been either allowed to keep ridiculously dirty stuff or buffed to the point that they are deadly. What I see that has become a huge problem in this community is people who do not play a certain character or have minimal MU Exp against a character show up in forums trying to tell people who have put in godly amounts of hours on him/her what is best or what is better than what. Why would I, someone who has never played Kenshi since MK9, show up and tell Pig or Immortal that they are overreacting saying Kenshi sucks because others think he is decent? Or pop up in Kitana threads and tell them how amazing Kitana is so the nerfs mean nothing? How would it make sense? It wouldn't. I would try to see their point of view because they have to be saying it for a reason. There are always people in each character forum willing to explain these things to those of us who do not use that character. In Kano's case, a prime example of overreaction to a real buff has lead to a severe nerf that went too far.
So in this thread I will fully explain why this "buff", the ability to cancel strings into EX Buff for reduced damage and Damage Over Time Drain is actually a "nerf", a nerf that Kano did not need, why it makes him a weaker character overall, and alternatives that pretty much every single one of us Kano mains is in full agreement on.
Lets start here.
Since many people seem to not know this, Cutthroat did more damage prepatch. Yes. This is a fact. We were already doing 55% 2 bar optimal combos midscreen, 45% meterless punishes, meterless 50% corner combos, 1 bar 55% if your execution was on point, and we were finally putting it altogether in this variation with EX Buff. Most people do not use the character, let alone the variation, so they had no idea of his damage potential until they saw some stream telling them that Kano is actually in the game. So when I'm being told that he needed to be nerfed because he did "too much damage now", it doesn't make sense because no one complained about his damage for months until they saw a stream and read notes for less damage. His damage was more, not less.
Now lets evaluate EX Buffs previous usage. One of the greatest things about Cutt was EX Buff. You needed good timing and MU Exp to use it properly. For example, if you were fighting Scorpion, you could interrupt EX Teleport with EX Buff since it has armor, and counter with a 45% meterless F2 combo. Yes, we were doing these things. Or if you read a Sub-Zero slide on WU, you EX Buff counter into meterless 45%. Or on knockdown you get a free EX Buff into pressure, and if they guess wrong on the 50/50, well you get the idea. This is just a quick sense of how it was previously applied and why not a single person who ever played Cutt ever complained. Make B1 hit crouch block consistently by making it, say similar to Reptile's OH is the one and only thing you ever heard. EX Buff was perfect as it was.
Now they chose to "buff" Kano by adding the ability to cancel strings into EX Buff, and continuing the combo. Cool. To compensate, they lowered the damage significantly. Ok. Then they made the decision to nerf the damage even more while adding the DoT that regular buff gives, up to 15%. Really? Then why would I use it now? Where is the reward? I don't need more time to see that what was originally a really good buff that possibly could have used a little tweaking, has been bombed due to knee jerk reactions. The move is now a situational at best tool, while also killing what was special about Cutt. As always, I like to provide clear factual explanations when making a statement.
Here they are.
To follow along, lets use the Scorpion example. To play Cutt effectively you have to maximize damage because you have to use meter for everything and you build it back so slowly (more of why he shouldn't have been nerfed but we'll get to that. So if you catch an EX Teleport you interrupt with EX Buff, do 45% meterless F2 combo, and pressure his WU with the threat of a 50/50 while your Buff is still active. Very general way we all would react in that situation. NOW with the "buff" we have received, if you do this and only land a 37% combo. So that is an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get. On top of that, now we have two options post KD. We can either pressure their KD like we have done since April, or we can cancel EX Buff so we don't drain 15% health to lose 5-6%, and give them a free WU. So in short, we USED TO interrupt for 45% damage, while keeping leftover buff to hopefully land a hit for more big damage. NOW WE have an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get while losing 5% health and giving them a free WU, or an 8% decrease in damage from what we used to get and applying pressure while losing up to 15% health.
Another talking point has been, "well SaltShaker, you can't expect him to be +6 and +8 and +100 after EX Buff in a string right and also be capable of all that damage can you"? My, no OUR response, to that is that yes, any string +14 after the cancel is too much, like B121, but the other ones are fine and in line with MKX. As I'm sure most of you don't know who don't use the character, a very effective strategy would be to do strings that jail into +9 on block EX Knives, and then apply the same exact pressure. This has served fine other than universal hitbox issues at time. The +frames are absolutely nothing new to Kano, or to half the roster. On hit after these +frames they used to lead to good wall carry combo into the previously deadly EX Buff on KD. Now in it's place is the "new EX Buff" which does significantly less damage, less damage than some of the 1 bar BnB's in other character forums, while also giving you the same scenario of either losing 5-6% health and halting all momentum or losing 15% health to continue pressure. Why would I do a 41% BnB and lose 5-6% health and be unable to pressure? Why would I do a 41% BnB and continue pressure and lose 15% health? Wouldn't I just do the original 35% BnB from EX Slice and apply pressure after KD the way I used to before this "buff" was given out? Unless I'm doing a significantly watered down 2 bar combo to end a round why would I ever use the current cancel over the old meta of EX Slice combos into pressure?
Now lets take it one step further. Anyone who has played Cutt can attest. How often do you have two bars? Another great thing about EX Buff was that it was an amazing comeback mechanic. Losing a round? Make a good read to counter with EX Buff or get a KD and EX Buff and you can steal a round with the right decisions. Now? Not so much. You might die trying to come back. To have two bars to cancel a string on block into a 50/50 starter will not be a common thing. Again, it will not happen often. If you have that much meter to spare with Cutt Kano you are likely losing and it wouldn't matter anyway. Now we are being told that spending a bar to cancel a string on block, into a possible 41% 50/50 1 Bar BnB, while having to end all pressure options to not lose more than 5-6%, is a good thing??? When we used to spend a bar for +9 on block, into a possible 50%+ 50/50 1 Bar BnB, while getting to keep all pressure and remaining buff power??? Really? How? I don't think more time can show me that using these two bars is superior to how we USED TO use two bars. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can explain.
I'm also being told that it is good in the corner. Ok. That is actually true. The only reason why I, and many others don't care is because the corner was one of, if not his biggest strength already. We were already pulling off 50% meterless and 65% 1 bar combos while buffed prepatch. This does not make his corner game "better", it just changes how it is applied.
Now no one is being unreasonable. Yes something had to change. Yes lowering the damage if it was going to combo fill may have been a good idea. Yes lowering the damage even more may have been a good idea. Yes adding 15% health DoT to EX Buff may have been a good idea. The glaring problem is that all of these things combined was a horrible idea and screams kneejerk all over it. One of those would have been a fair trade. Big damage but big health loss? Would have made sense. Regular damage but keep EX Buff clean? Would have made sense. Losing health doing BnB's on par with other cast members damage/setups, while losing or nerfing all of EX Buffs other strengths does not make sense.
The rage our community, and I mean community as in people who actually main the character, is reaching all time highs due to the feeling of being insulted. Insulted every time a patch rolls around and Kano gets some insignificant crap he doesn't need while others get super buffed. Insulted because people come in our forums telling us a nerf is a Shinnok buff. Insulted because top tiers get buffed while we get a pop up string in Commando. Insulted because they could have simply left the lower damage while NOT adding DoT so we can actually apply pressure with a pressure heavy character. Insulted because it has become apparent more than ever that Kano will be doomed to mediocrity while the majority of the cast will be looked after. Insulted because they took a variation that we ALL SAID needed nothing, buffed it, and then nerfed it worse than it ever was and had the nerve to call it a "buff".
Hopefully this better words what I was too upset to get across last night, and can help Poster I Don't Main Him But I Tried Him Once to truly see how we were MUCH better off before these changes. Almost all of us would prefer the old prepatch EX Buff back, and rightfully so.
@ando1184
@Youphemism
@LEGI0N47
@Hitoshura
@DougDFC
@Derptile
@Dean
@Kinetic Demise
@FlappyDaniel
@ESP-_BLACK
@VoyagersRevenge
@SM StarGazer
@Rude
@OG Mannimal
@Error
@Phosferrax
@Plop
@thlityoursloat
@PND_Ketchup
@HuttonMD
@MsMiharo
@Dukmunky
@EntropicByDesign
@Any other Kano main's sharing thoughts that I forgot
@Anyone who wants to be informed to the actual issue we are upset about
Derptile's Cliff Notes-
- Prepatch Ex buff was used for blowing up wakeups and getting 60%+ 2 bar 1 frame link punishes, on the 8/31 patch they toned down the damage from 50 to 33% but made it so you can do frame traps and have more links, and then for the 9/1 hotfix they nerfed the damage even further and added health drain to the Ex buff that does 15%.
- Prepatch Ex buff was fine(everyone agrees on this)
- 8/31 was a bit OP(everyone agrees on this)
- 9/1 fucked it up(everyone agrees on this)
- The biggest problem with Ex buff right now is the health drain of 15% (Everyone and their grandmother agrees to this)
- Ex buff can be used as a pressure tool at the end of his B121 string to be +14, but on every other string it's +9 or less so it's inferior to Ex knives when used as a pressure tool.
- Ex buff can also be used as a combo extender after landing hits on B12, 112, B31 and leads to 40% one bar or roughly 52% for two bars. However, because of the health loss the combos essentially lose 15% effectiveness making them inferior to his fully optimized 1 bar Ex DB1 combos that range from 37-41%. His normals are already easily hitconfirmable so this change of adding more links helps no one but bad players.
- You can turn Ex buff off after a combo so that you only lose 8% health instead of 15%, but you lose your ability to pressure on wakeup which is one of Cutthroat's greatest strengths.
- EDITED by SaltShaker. Prepatch EX Buff had armor and could interrupt gaps into combos while activating, and was an amazing WU crush on a good read. The new EX Buff has been stripped of it's armor properties.
Last edited: