Joker 1.03 Patch Thoughts (from a actual joker player)

[laudanum09]

In mk vs dc.
Jokers parry had a good window. And while it was out the parry was active. So even if you got hit late as he is finishing his parry animation, it will still parry. So it was basically hard to whiff punish since it was active the entire time and when done, he was able to block instantly.

This can be a great way to make his parry able to land more. Opponent can still punish by doing the right string (you do standing parry, they punish with a low starter, you do low parry , they punish with a mid, high, overhead, etc )

That would be great. I really do think Parry should be free to use considering how modest of a buff Has give. It doesn't seem broken to me if his parry is relatively safe but maybe I'm missing something. Find a way to limit the amount of parries he can do a game. Has stay per health bar or until clashed and he cant parry once he's full. something along those lines.

Me and scar call the flying tank special move. That troll tank.
Usually use it to troll someone and kill them in a humiliating way (cus getting hit in the head with a gas tank is hilarious ) lol

Throw it at Lobo full screen lol.

 

[SunLord5]

I want to use acid flower during zoning. Lol. Make ha extend the range of acid flower/make it poisonous from full screen / set a cooldown on ha like bane's venom and I'm sold. A unique trait is a good trait.

Edit: that'd be the ultimate troll if you use only trait and acid flower.

 

[Necrophia]

That would be great. I really do think Parry should be free to use considering how modest of a buff Has give. It doesn't seem broken to me if his parry is relatively safe but maybe I'm missing something. Find a way to limit the amount of parries he can do a game. Has stay per health bar or until clashed and he cant parry once he's full. something along those lines.

A good example of great parries you can see on Geese Howard (SNK fighting games, CvS) and Hakumen (Blazblue). Heck, Hakumen's is his trait in the series and has a long animation to trigger when any close attack comes to him (Can also parry projectiles).
For what i read Joker had a decent parry on MKvsDC (never played). If we reduce the precission it requires and able to be clashed (Like Grundy's grabs in the recent patch), maybe we can achieve something.

An idea would be to slowdown the animation a bit, but as long it keeps going any incoming attack to his arms is parried. Obviusly if whiffs or is bluffed, Joker will still try to parry air while the opponent starts the combo from an opening.

 

[insomnia_ftw]

An idea would be to slowdown the animation a bit, but as long it keeps going any incoming attack to his arms is parried.

Or just mirror the animation so he does another swipe with his hands. That would keep it looking fast-paced.

Also, can the air tank be used to catch a jump-in on reaction now that it's a bit faster?

 

[Necrophia]

Or just mirror the animation so he does another swipe with his hands. That would keep it looking fast-paced.

Same will do. The point is that during the entire animation Joker can parry it. Though you can use the trait for counter Bane charges, it still requires a lot of timing (Online because i only find them there). Making Joker start the parry a pair of frames earlier it collides on you will make Bane rely much less on his charge.

 

[Gilbagz]

One change that would help a lot is to enable the use of the parry as a reversal. With reversal windows, you can buffer batman's and KF's parry. This makes parrying between strings a hell of a lot easier (I can land it 9/10 times). With Joker since you can't reversal it, you really have to time it to the frame. While you can learn the timing, some parry windows are legitimately like 1-2 frame windows, e.g. GL's b+1,3. 1-2 frames doesnt sound horrible and since it is a consistent timing you should be able to muscle memory it, but I don't think you can plink in this game so its even more difficult.

The other changes you guys mentioned seem good as well. A holdable parry/increased active frames would help alot, or just being able to parry air attacks. Maybe if he could mb his parry to get a full combo, Grundy can mb his for armour.

Random stuff. b+2 is a decent move when close to the corner. Its only -1 so it is safe. And with the 2 frame parry, you can't just push buttons (risk reward is mega out of your favour though). In the corner, the knockback is less too. (Animation is sick too like Cat mentioned)

Also, what do you guys think about making crowbar safe? Its a slow advancing special that gives a hard knockdown. I don't see it being insanely overpowered. It would help with his mini corner vortex thing, since off a crowbar knock down in the corner, you can force stand up with b1 and standing 3. If crowbar was safe (or even positive) it could be a 50-50 in the corner based on the knockdown. If they guess wrong and try wake up, b+1, crowbar will reset the situation where you have to guess again. If they block low waiting for the b1, you can safely get the crowbar off and force the situation again. Seems really stupid since its like a one hit/two hit combo vortex, could be something. I feel the gimmicky teeth stuff in the corner will lose its impact as people get used to blocking the teeth and jump ins.

Edit: I realise you can fuzzy guard, but because of wake up timings, you need to commit to the wake up attack. b1 will beat this so you can get the crowbar out. If crowbar was safe/positive, there could be a legitimate mix up here.

Maybe there are other options though since you can otg off a crowbar knockdown with b1, standing 3 and d2.

 

[MetaSkipper]

I've already posted my thoughts about how to buff parry/trait, but to rehash:

• 1-frame start up
• reduced recovery
• longer active frames

Just makin' it the best parry and all that. It's his trait, after all, as opposed to a special.

• Ha's last 10-15 seconds each
• Ha levels drop one at a time, each level lasting a full interval, rather than depleting all at once.
• Ha's buff movement speed, and move/normal start up.
• At Level 3 Ha, specials gain properties like stun, unblockability, boosted damage, etc.

I'm not a big fan of consumable Ha's, but they certainly need to be buffed.

• Normals give 1 Ha.
• Specials and MB Normals give 2 Ha's
• MB Specials give 3 Ha's.

A very arbitrary way of making some moves worth more Ha's. There are probably better systems, but there should be moves that give two or three Ha's.
Other stuff:

• I don't see crowbar (special) a lot. Maybe give it significantly more damage, so that you can pick between damage (crowbar) or reset scenario (flower, teeth).
• High Gas still seems relatively useless. At least I see Low Gas in frame traps and combos.

 

[Ren21]

Joker really doesn't need much, just the string fixes and a trait rework and we'll be set. At the very least the parry should be 1 frame startup but a complete rework really is in order. Its simply too impractical to land and the reward is not worth it. Even if you take the risk the bonus isnt worth a damn. Seriously who's going to get 3 HAs in a match EVER?

 

[laudanum09]

I've already posted my thoughts about how to buff parry/trait, but to rehash:

Crowbar should be safe at like-5 and do better damage.
I think realistically Ha buffs won't do much more than speed and maybe dmg.

MBable specials should be a regular buff. Yet another system he misses out on. We simply pay for combos with gas and get the occasional damage from crowbar that's better spent elsewhere for the most part. MBable flower should be a definite option, whether to give the move armor for defensive possibilities or stun for offensive.

Best Ha buff I've read so far is your idea to have each HA drain independently, so if you have 3 Has, that's 30 seconds. Right now it's already 9 seconds so that's a small change to implement. Just let us activate at will with MB+Trait so we can use half a Ha if we want to.

LOL at Aquaman's trait btw, seeing how annoying that matchup is for Joker because of it. He has that thing available as often as Joker doesn't have his Has, which is like 99% of 99% of matches.

 

[laudanum09]

Joker really doesn't need much, just the string fixes and a trait rework and we'll be set. At the very least the parry should be 1 frame startup but a complete rework really is in order. Its simply too impractical to land and the reward is not worth it. Even if you take the risk the bonus isnt worth a damn. Seriously who's going to get 3 HAs in a match EVER?

Tom Brady?

Were you at Weds night fights this week?

 

[Ren21]

Nah didn't go, someone pulled that off? Link please.

 

[Rathalos]

I think it would be cool if HA's had no time limit, but you could lose individual levels by either something you do, or the opponent does.
Like if you wiffed a parry you would lose one level of HA, or maybe every time the opponent landed a throw you would lose one. Something weird like that.

I'm not suggesting this because it would make him better, just think it would be a unique mechanic, and more interesting then how it currently is.

 

[laudanum09]

Nah didn't go, someone pulled that off? Link please.

No way, just making fun of Tom Brady's 'say Joker is viable, put him at bottom on tier' list thing.

 

[lorenzo]

The canister buff was a really good choice. Now you can catch back dashes, air dashes and you can setup new frame traps with the new gas. Example of new frame traps are b1 + rolling gas, 21(cancel on first knife hit) to rolling gas, 112+rolling gas for back dashes, reversals, and floaty jumps, and 112+air gas for jumps and back dashes. His parry is still really good in some match ups, but I would like to either have no recovery frames on the parry, be able to parry jump ins, Ha last the whole match or 20 seconds, or parry through block stunt.

I won't mind having the options of using the ha for unblockable teeth. All joker need is a small tweak and he will be viable for every matchup.

Oh and please fix the 212, and forward 232. They are mid but whiff on crouching. -_-

 

[burzy306]

Maybe Joker won't be able to top 3 a major. But I'm still gonna try!

 

[VGB Joe Kerr]

Still think his parry should've had something to do with projectiles(sticks out chest to parry a projectile then shoots his bang gun immediately. or just absorb the damn thing.) It would have made him unique as I think only WW can parry projectiles? And it would solve his issue of losing to good zoning for the most part. I have been messing around with ways to work in his parry and you have to be SUPER psychic to even get the damn thing off. the 2 frames makes it almost a gamble to use in strings, the game is too fast to use in footsies on reaction. why even buff it? I can't ever use it unless I'm fighting bane. I would have preferred a faster dash recovery for spacing, or fast start up on B2 to make it useful over buffing a parry that doesn't help him at all. yeah level 2-3 are really good but how often will you get that in a match?

 

[kabelfritz]

i dont play joker but i face him a lot. id give him only one HA wih the effect of 3 that lasts a couple seconds.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Firstly, I would just like to say that The Joker's problems are way bigger than his Trait being useless. I think it's important for a characters tools to be relative to the characters around them. So many of The Joker's moves are budget versions of moves stronger characters are currently using and often abusing.

The property changes that I have proposed are actually in line with the tools that better, stronger and ultimately more viable characters have. So if you think to yourself "Hey, that's way too strong to give Jokes."
It'll be safe to say someone already has it. More importantly this puts into perspective how unbalanced certain characters tools actually are.

REQUESTED CHANGES

BANG!: Keep all of the frame and damage data the same but give this move a knockdown property.

This has been my most wanted change since the game has come out (I've mentioned it to Pako on stream chat various times).

Stronger characters have much better zoning potential and that's fine, but to even the game out there needs to be a better emphasis on fearing a trade. Joker normally loses more health in a zoning war than other characters and that's fine. However, if I'm sacrificing health, please allow me to get closer. Aquaman's Trident Toss does this in 17f (Joker's Bang! is 16f. lol) and does 11% damage (as opposed to The Joker's 8) and that character already has a fast 'tracking projectile move'.

CROWBAR: This move is currently useless, because The Joker already has a plethora of overheads., and it just scales his combos.

Keep all the frame data the same, but increase the damage to 13. Aquaman's Trident Rush is admittedly more unsafe and not an overhead, but currently does 11% and more chip damage. I think this will give the move some sort of use.
METER BURN: Keep the damage the same but increase the damage to 21% and make move send you further on a sliding knockdown (as much as a Wager Clash). This will make the move more useful and better yet augment The Joker's corner game.

Sorry to bring Aquaman into this again, lol (I think he's a solid/well rounded character). His MB Trident Rush does 27% and way more chip. Thats almost the damage of an Air-to-Air BnB.


LAUGHING GAS: Startup frames reduced from 47f to 33f (or something similar). This is another one of The Joker's useless moves. Increasing the speed of this move on startup would encourage you to use this as a spacing/zoning tool.

METER BURN: Slightly increase the Area of Effect on the explosion.


ROLLING LAUGHING GAS: Startup frames reduced from 32f to 27f. Same reasoning as Laughing Gas.

METER BURN: Slightly increase the Area of Effect on the explosion.


ALL VERSION OF CHATTERING TEETH: No changes. This move is fine and actually makes The Joker even remotely usable and fun.

ACID BLOSSOM: Hit Advantage changes from 2f to 4f. This is allow you get a slight lead in pressure in you land this. Mileena in MK9 needed a similar thing on her Neck Bite, tbh.


Besides the obligatory buff to all D2s in the game and MAKING MID MOVES HIT EVERY CHARACTER THAT CROUCHES.
That's what I propose for The Joker, especially the change on his Gun Special Move.

I'll talk about ideas for his Trait later.

 

[Killzone]

• he already had a hit confirm string
F23

 

[Comrade_Aleksey]

I think there are 3 ways of a really fair trait buff:
1) u get the buff of 3 HA's from first successful parry (buff time is 9 sec)
2) u can get consistently 3 HA's buffs (what we have for now) but each of them stay to the end of round
3) we get a 14% parry and fuck the speed buff

 

[Dr Jackal]

I am agree with your thoughts CAT, I don’t have so many things to add.
I prefer the Joker’s trait in MK vs DC as well, I mean like a basic move.

Just an other thing :
Lot of ppl doesn’t main joker and don’t know this character (I mean respectable people). They are said : “NRS is so spectacular, they level up Joker ! It’s AWESOME !!!” Ok guys, let’s be honest one second … Your opinions are completely non objective…
NO LEVEL UP ! They just fix little things for joker. (things that should be already fixed)

1/ They didn’t fix the issue on 212 string. Seriously I don’t understand that…
2/ Ok Joker can combos with : 3 / 21 / 32 / 11 / F23, it’s just totally normal for him to do that. No buff here, just few things to make him normal if you compare him to the others characters.
3/ Increase the speed of gas tank, ok it’s nice, the move was to slow to use it correctly.
4/ The trait : For me the trait is not a trait… It’s just a parry too risky for the joker player. You can’t use it correctly to punish blockstring, you can use it to punish pressure btw. This is the way I use it right now. (really efficient vs superman btw ). The speed if you have 3 HA! is nice. But what a risky price … Let’s say it, the price is not so big.

Wana put a real level up for Joker ??? Give him the opportunity to combos with the trait. Like Kano in MK vs DC. Joker should perform a combos after the trait. The trait can be available every 15 second for example. This idea is a REAL buff.

Ah ! If the flower can stun the opponent to give us the opportunity to continue the pressure it will be great. Like the superman freeze for example.

Well, when I spoke with Hector Sanchez few month ago, we spoke a little bit about complaining. Yes we give you the time to fix things. But please, consider that Joker really needs to improve his trait to be viable. For the moment, it’s not viable if you compare the Joker to the others characters ‘s trait.

 

[Counter_Kaos]

I'm glad they buffed the damage on his low parry since it did crap for damage, what was it 5%? lol I'm also loving the many ideas on how to buff his trait, it must not be easy for them to decide on how exactly they should buff it.

 

[laudanum09]

Well, when I spoke with Hector Sanchez few month ago, we spoke a little bit about complaining. Yes we give you the time to fix things. But please, consider that Joker really needs to improve his trait to be viable. For the moment, it’s not viable if you compare the Joker to the others characters ‘s trait.

More details on this convo?

 

[Jack White]

THANK YOU! I am sick of top players spouting bullshit all day and seeing everyone swallow it.

"HERP DERP EVERYONE IZ TOP TIER GAIZ! JOKER IS VEWWY VIABLE!"

Maybe if they used more than the same 8 or so characters and didn't base their balancing thoughts around that then they'd understand. Seriously, what the hell would a Superman or Aquaman main know about balance for lower tier characters? Keep them out of these discussions.

 

[Dr Jackal]

More details on this convo?

I met him in Warner Bros, I don’t know if you know me pretty well because I am not really active here. I am the founder of Finish Him (like TYM but in France), close to warner bros so it gave me the oppunity to meet him for my community.
He’s really nice , a little bit tired about players who complain about a character when the game is not out because they were still fixing things. Here the game is out, the NRS priority was certainly to fix the biggest issues in this first patch, maybe on the characters wich are very popular. The game is more balanced right now, several chars were really in difficulty in the corner without wake up lol.

They are still fixing the game thanks to players, so let’s be constructive for Joker

Normally they should listen the joker player, maybe in the next patch ?? We have to continue our discussions, maybe we can write a subject with all our ideas. Something realistic for our Joker in the next patch ? Hector will read it with no doubt, he is closed to the communities.