Finding solutions to low hitbox characters

Discussion in 'Sub-Zero' started by salvificblood, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. Bidu

    Bidu Active Member

    PSN:
    FabioBidu
    I was messing around in the lab last night. I set Mileena to duck and was just cross jumping from side to side trying to figure out her small hit box trying to hit her with JiP. It's hard in a real match, but possible. lol



    That's my standard combo for this and also for air to air JiP. Easy and I nearly never miss it.
  2. Fatality_check

    Fatality_check Never Gonna Give


    I do that as well every now and then, people instantly hesitate and get hit and then you just dash up and attack. Works quite well.
  3. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    The thing you may not be considering is, 21 will hit after b121 but against low hitbox characters, your pressure is pretty much over because 2 will not hit if you try the second time. Now, you can 21 and then cross over because they're expecting a d4 but you don't want to do that if your opponent is already close to the corner.

    Standing 3 gives you a lot more options in this scenario. It also works, you just have to be quick enough after b121. Dash right up to them as though you were going to throw them and hit 3, you will check them as they don't have time to jump out if you time it correctly. F4 is slow but your oppoent will likely respect the option after standing 3 and that's the whole point, it puts you at great spacing on block and you can even follow standing 3 up with a throw. If you catch your opponent trying to jump out, you can cancel 3 with clone.

    That being said, I am realising this is not a "go-to" option, this just another tool you can utilise as opposed to recycling the same blockstring and throw mixups, which is a problem for Sub because good players start making reads on your 21 pressure. I am a believer in presenting your opponent with something new to think about. Take up as many of their mental resources as you can, that's when players make mistakes.
  4. OnizukaPM

    OnizukaPM Active Member

    According to sub-zero frame data, 3 is 0 on block so its not bad idea to throw out 3 ( they are commiting standing block becouse they expect f4 after 3 ) and now u can pressure with 21 again. Will test it tomorrow sounds pretty realistic
    salvificblood likes this.
  5. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Herpity Derpity Do

    It is kinda gimmicky... because 3 is 18 frames... you can be full combo punished if they suspect it. But it also is in a way... a great weapon.
    Example: 2,1 3. after the 1 is blocked you are right on top of your opponent and 3 is 18 frames. So if you are playing... basically anyone really... you'll eat a punish if you are read.
    it IS however a good tool to use to keep momentum for a bit and give your opponent the thought of "I can punish this" and then get another 2,2.

    Its actually pretty fucking genius if you use it wisely.
    salvificblood likes this.
  6. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    If you condition them by finishing your strings the first couple of times, standing 3 does actually become somewhat viable while they're waiting for the final 2 or 4 of the string (which has a natural delay to it, anyway). That's a good thought, man.
  7. Seapeople

    Seapeople This one's for you

    I don't think 3 will be too good for continuing your rushdown. It is pretty slow, can't be hit confirmed, and like salv said in the 1st post, it only leaves you in position for a max range d4.

    I see 3 as a really random, but safe tool that will throw your opponent off guard because they have no idea what's going on. Lol, it sounds stupid at first but I think it will be helpful if you use it sparingly.
    Bidu and salvificblood like this.
  8. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    If I ever catch a good player with 21, 3, MASSIVE CLONE I will laugh for the entire fight until I am dead.
    Sub_Crash4 likes this.
  9. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Herpity Derpity Do

    I did earlier today. That clone is like... the greatest thing ever.
    This is something you tell your opponent.... "that 3... is 18 frames man... hella long startup" ... throw it out there... and then BAM... 2,2~freeze and take it to the bank.
    Bidu likes this.
  10. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Lamesauce Premium Supporter

    I use uncharged B2 as a mix up if my opponent has Breaker. If the opponent chooses to break and you use fully charged B2 you get extra damage from B2, but if the opponent doesn't break and you use uncharged B2, you can go in for pressure. Another thing is that uncharged B2 in the corner gives you a free throw attempt.
    Bidu likes this.
  11. OnizukaPM

    OnizukaPM Active Member

    i think midscreen it gives u guaranteed 21 pressure
  12. Bidu

    Bidu Active Member

    PSN:
    FabioBidu
    That's a hella huge clone indeed, salvific... lol


    Yeah, if my opponent has meter for breaker I'll mostly likely to try a fully charged b2 because of it's damage. If he don't react and escape the reset he will keep the meter, sure. But at least he ate 14% in the face.
  13. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Lamesauce Premium Supporter

    I like the options this gives you but I prefer to use Throw / 2, 1, 2, Ice Clone mix-up. If you guess wrong then you are safe, where as if you guess right you can hit confirm 2, 1, 2 into Ice Ball or get 44% with Throw.

    If F4 from 3, F4 hits then you are getting the same damage from Throw, except if it's blocked then you are at disadvantage.

    Also about blocked 3 into Throw: Doesn't the pushback from 3 make dashing in for a Throw less viable? Blocked 3 only gives you 2% chip damage and I believe the opponent can poke you out before you can Throw/2, 1.

    Instead of B1, 2, 1 you can also just go for his NJP BnB for the guaranteed 38% damage and push to the corner.

    TheChad and I have been discussing this over at Gamefaqs. His idea is to use 1, 3, F4/B4 which gives you the B4 mix-up as well. 1 hits crouch blocking opponents after B1, 2, 1.
  14. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    When I look for new setups with Sub I always look for the ones that have some margin for error when it comes to timing. Personally, I just don't like 13 against low hitboxes, nor 21 because I know if my opponent decides to do nothing other than poke after b121, my throw mixup is gone and if I get the timing slightly wrong on the string, and it only has to be slightly, I lose my pressure. 3 gives me a nailed on way to check a low hitbox character after b121 because it hits them regardless. The second thing is, if my opponent expects f4 after 3 then the slide will obviously crush his stand block and give me the same untechable knowckdown I would have had after a standard 214/212, slide combo ender and I am also inside his head that little bit more because he's trying to work out what just happened to him. Not only that, given that 3 leaves me at max range for a d4, my opponent cannot beat me with any poke in the game if I decide to d4 after standing 3 on block and it's no certainty he will poke after standing 3 due to the possibility of f4 or slide following it up. That's why I said standing 3 leaves me at the optimal footsies range for Sub and why I still think it's viable. Once I have established that my opponent can't poke me after standing 3, I now have the opportunity to pressure with 21 or step in and throw him.

    The success of the setup comes down to how well your opponent respects your options after standing 3. You have to judge how they respond but that's what everything comes back to with Sub-Zero, in the end. Sub-Zero is probably the only character in the game who can force you to respect options. How? Ice clone and freeze at the end of strings.
  15. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Herpity Derpity Do

    There is 0 margin for error after b1,2,1 offline. I've never missed it against an opponent who tried to "jump", that is no excuse. You of all people should know that. 3 and 3,f4 is weak and there is too much risk... as BOTH options are unsafe.
  16. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    3 is +3 on hit and 0 on block. Blocked f4 leaves you at disadvantage but I am pretty sure it isn't that unsafe.

    I also want to point out that f4, iceball is terribly unsafe but I still use it after b121 or even in 21 pressure. Risky but I don't see how Sub-Zero can do anything against good players who play you regularly and know that Sub will just die a slow death if he always clones out and takes the safer option because Sub's safe option is so easy to deal with.

    If Sub is a footsies character, then I want to know every footsies tool he has so that each can be applied at a certain time in a match depending on what my gut instinct is. 3 is just another one to add to the mix for me.
  17. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Herpity Derpity Do

    I agree that there is too much cloning out. 2,1,4 is a good string to not clone out of, you get pushback and can at least stay in footsie range.
    I just don't like having my options cut into a guess... when I don't have to.
    I use f4~freeze as well..... but more f4~slide...
  18. Mr. Mileena

    Mr. Mileena Well-Known Member

    Now, the trick is to actually doing these strategies with 4879475947 fans flying at you
    WayoftheFist, OnizukaPM, Bidu and 3 others like this.
  19. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    214 is OK for that but one of the problems I've found with that is it only sets up one layer of guessing which is: will he clone or won't he clone. It's of no real consequnce which you decide to do if your opponent just does nothing and backs up...

    Once he gets in he can use them. Sub-Zero has infinite problems getting in on the likes of Kitana and Mileena, obviously.
  20. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Herpity Derpity Do

    at least you aren't as far away after 2,1,4. :)

    Some of our latest posts are simply grasping at straws though. After re=reading some of the stuff... kinda comical.
  21. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    To be a more competitive character, NRS will have to fix his slide and his standing 2, until that happens, we're just going to have to make do with makeshift and/or funky setups.
    Bidu likes this.
  22. RedRaptor10

    RedRaptor10 Lamesauce Premium Supporter

    After blocked standing 3 or D4 (max range) can't the opponent escape by dashing/jumping back? They are both 0 on block and there's no guarantee that you will be able to continue pressure due to the pushback from standing 3 and D4.
  23. salvificblood

    salvificblood Worst Sub-Zero Ever Premium Supporter

    Of course, there is no way to absolutely guarantee anything with Sub-Zero because he has no real frametraps. I don't know why my opponent would jump back after a blocked d4, though. If I tried to launch offense off a blocked d4, their best bet would be to d3 me...

    If you get away from Sub-Zero by jumping back he can either ex freeze you or slide to punish as you're falling.
  24. ZtrideRz

    ZtrideRz Active Member

    No offence to glue he is good but he wouldnt stand a chance against tom bradys sub zero. Object of sub is always pushing them back to the corner using clone. Use down 4s to extend offense. When there in corner use resets and clone pressure overheads >4 to reach through your clones. When you freeze them in the corner use a simple reset like.. jump 2 jump 2 jump 2 then ex ice puddle.. good corner reset. Also grab clone. General mix UPS like ur saying come natural in time anyway.
  25. Seapeople

    Seapeople This one's for you

    RedRaptor10 Does 1 really hit opponents after b121? It sounds sketchy, could you maybe show it in a video?

    Sub_Crash4 3f+4 is -8 plus pushback, so the only character that can really punish it is Reptile. Kenshi & Raiden could punish but they have to be on point.

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