Match-up Discussion Ermac Matchup chart by Metzos

[GGA Jeremiah]

Well tbh with you i dont have any Sheeva MU exp, i just took the word of GGA Jeremiah for the particular MU. Maybe he has something to add to as why its an even MU.

The basic gist is, Sheeva wins on projectile trades 12% as opposed to 8%, or 12% opposed to 5% on TKP. If the Ermac likes to teleport on reaction to our fireball we can start baiting that out with anti-air grab, the Ermac will see what looks to be a fireball, teleport and eat a 30% punish. And don't say you see the fireball and then teleport because if you wait that long then Sheeva can block in time anyways. Ermac's jump kick forceblast are out because of Sheeva's invincible anti-air grab for 14%. Her grab also works against that on crossovers. Ermac is also a character that can get in the Sheeva telestomp infinite in the corner. Any wakeup attack won't save you and if you teleport you end up right under her again. The only way out is to dash out or jump out which means you eat 1 more telestomp. I also have armor for 22% when I want, and be careful about d1 after your 3,1,2 on block because if you follow up with that a lot Sheeva can armor low grab that for 45%, or 33% unbreakable. Our normals are about even speed wise except your standing 1 is faster.

Ermac has her beat in damage by a decent amount. Try to stay at max tkp distance for chip and meter. Ermac builds more meter in this MU. Frame data wise we are pretty even, so use standing 1 more in this MU. And just beware of armor. If you can find a way to consistently land your big damage combo's this could be a 6-4 Ermac. I just don't know how you could.

 

[Metzos]

The basic gist is, Sheeva wins on projectile trades 12% as opposed to 8%, or 12% opposed to 5% on TKP. If the Ermac likes to teleport on reaction to our fireball we can start baiting that out with anti-air grab, the Ermac will see what looks to be a fireball, teleport and eat a 30% punish. And don't say you see the fireball and then teleport because if you wait that long then Sheeva can block in time anyways. Ermac's jump kick forceblast are out because of Sheeva's invincible anti-air grab for 14%. Her grab also works against that on crossovers. Ermac is also a character that can get in the Sheeva telestomp infinite in the corner. Any wakeup attack won't save you and if you teleport you end up right under her again. The only way out is to dash out or jump out which means you eat 1 more telestomp. I also have armor for 22% when I want, and be careful about d1 after your 3,1,2 on block because if you follow up with that a lot Sheeva can armor low grab that for 45%, or 33% unbreakable. Our normals are about even speed wise except your standing 1 is faster.

Ermac has her beat in damage by a decent amount. Try to stay at max tkp distance for chip and meter. Ermac builds more meter in this MU. Frame data wise we are pretty even, so use standing 1 more in this MU. And just beware of armor. If you can find a way to consistently land your big damage combo's this could be a 6-4 Ermac. I just don't know how you could.

OtteNx.

 

[Metzos]

The basic gist is, Sheeva wins on projectile trades 12% as opposed to 8%, or 12% opposed to 5% on TKP. If the Ermac likes to teleport on reaction to our fireball we can start baiting that out with anti-air grab, the Ermac will see what looks to be a fireball, teleport and eat a 30% punish. And don't say you see the fireball and then teleport because if you wait that long then Sheeva can block in time anyways. Ermac's jump kick forceblast are out because of Sheeva's invincible anti-air grab for 14%. Her grab also works against that on crossovers. Ermac is also a character that can get in the Sheeva telestomp infinite in the corner. Any wakeup attack won't save you and if you teleport you end up right under her again. The only way out is to dash out or jump out which means you eat 1 more telestomp. I also have armor for 22% when I want, and be careful about d1 after your 3,1,2 on block because if you follow up with that a lot Sheeva can armor low grab that for 45%, or 33% unbreakable. Our normals are about even speed wise except your standing 1 is faster.

Ermac has her beat in damage by a decent amount. Try to stay at max tkp distance for chip and meter. Ermac builds more meter in this MU. Frame data wise we are pretty even, so use standing 1 more in this MU. And just beware of armor. If you can find a way to consistently land your big damage combo's this could be a 6-4 Ermac. I just don't know how you could.

Good breakdown and some really interesting stuff here. What about her hitbox though ? Her having a huge hitbox would make her easy target for Ermac's pressure, which means extra chip dmg and easier throw mixups by Ermac.

 

[Qwark28]

Good breakdown and some really interesting stuff here. What about her hitbox though ? Her having a huge hitbox would make her easy target for Ermac's pressure, which means extra chip dmg and easier throw mixups by Ermac.

the arguement for the projectile is ridiculous, ermac can bait and jump over it then proceed to TKP range where sheeva cant even throw one

teleports can be teled on reaction, sheeva needs to teleport specially to target the tele reappearance or risk herself at some - frames right next to ermac AKA throw.

what good is sheevas anti poke strategies if her armour is baited out and shes unable to build any meter

anti air grab to counter jik force blast can be teled, shity ass risk reward but an option still

she also cant duck 312

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

the arguement for the projectile is ridiculous, ermac can bait and jump over it then proceed to TKP range where sheeva cant even throw one

teleports can be teled on reaction, sheeva needs to teleport specially to target the tele reappearance or risk herself at some - frames right next to ermac AKA throw.

what good is sheevas anti poke strategies if her armour is baited out and shes unable to build any meter

anti air grab to counter jik force blast can be teled, shity ass risk reward but an option still

she also cant duck 312

1st point on the baiting a fireball and jumping over it for full combo. Yes Ermac can do this, but what if instead of throwing the fireball like you are thinking and Sheeva throws out a short duration anti-air grab whiff, you jump in thinking it is a fireball, and Sheeva recovers fast enough to throw another anti air grab (which is invincible to air attacks after the 5th frame). This makes Ermac have to somewhat respect the fireball.

2nd point on the telestomp. Correct that Ermac can teleport on reaction to seeing a Sheeva telestomp but do not rely on this. If Sheeva is telestomping behind you instead of teleport a sweep will come out for Ermac leading to a guaranteed 11% and a guessing game afterwards. This being said, Sheeva should use telestomp sparingly.

3rd point. Yes baiting out her armor is good. If you can get a feel for what Armor the Sheeva is going to use then definitely abuse it.

and the 3,1,2. Yes Sheeva does have to take that string like a champ. Just be careful here, you are -2 so if you are trying to down poke afterwards you will lose to Sheeva's 7 frame d3, and if the d3 hits on a crouching opponent (while you were trying to down poke her) and she cancels into a special that means she is +19 frames. Giving her the option of either doing a d3 and canceling into a 25 frame fireball (making it uninteruptable except x-ray) forcing you to block it and giving her nice pushback. Or d3 into lowgrab for 43%. So then once Ermac starts to try to duck block to bait out the d3 that Sheeva is doing, she can then just go right into lowgrab instead for 43%. Or she can do the safer version of d4, into fireball to push you back.

I could see this as being 6-4 Ermac with his high damage output. If you can keep her from building meter then you should be able to pull out the victory.

 

[Qwark28]

1st point on the baiting a fireball and jumping over it for full combo. Yes Ermac can do this, but what if instead of throwing the fireball like you are thinking and Sheeva throws out a short duration anti-air grab whiff, you jump in thinking it is a fireball, and Sheeva recovers fast enough to throw another anti air grab (which is invincible to air attacks after the 5th frame). This makes Ermac have to somewhat respect the fireball.

2nd point on the telestomp. Correct that Ermac can teleport on reaction to seeing a Sheeva telestomp but do not rely on this. If Sheeva is telestomping behind you instead of teleport a sweep will come out for Ermac leading to a guaranteed 11% and a guessing game afterwards. This being said, Sheeva should use telestomp sparingly.

3rd point. Yes baiting out her armor is good. If you can get a feel for what Armor the Sheeva is going to use then definitely abuse it.

and the 3,1,2. Yes Sheeva does have to take that string like a champ. Just be careful here, you are -2 so if you are trying to down poke afterwards you will lose to Sheeva's 7 frame d3, and if the d3 hits on a crouching opponent (while you were trying to down poke her) and she cancels into a special that means she is +19 frames. Giving her the option of either doing a d3 and canceling into a 25 frame fireball (making it uninteruptable except x-ray) forcing you to block it and giving her nice pushback. Or d3 into lowgrab for 43%. So then once Ermac starts to try to duck block to bait out the d3 that Sheeva is doing, she can then just go right into lowgrab instead for 43%. Or she can do the safer version of d4, into fireball to push you back.

I could see this as being 6-4 Ermac with his high damage output. If you can keep her from building meter then you should be able to pull out the victory.

i agree with all points but 1 and 2

punishing the blast isnt ermac specific, what is is jumping over it fullscreen into tkp range and forcing her to play with that threat

and about the second, all teleports are faster when done in the air so theres no risk involved, even if it was grounded you can react fast enough before the game even decides where she lands

no way this is 5-5 when sheeva has to rely on meter to avoid ermacs pressure which is zippo not even regarding his strong zoning and setups

 

[Qwark28]

woah hadnt read point 3

ermac doesnt have to poke, ever, only to get out and that has pushback to the point where you cant reach him to poke that -7

if the threat of your d3 is simple a fireball which can be blocked on reaction to the d3 then why would ermac ever try to bait the poke? he doesnt need to pressure, its an added extra, he couldnt care less if he was forced out, the fireball leaves him in the range he WANTS to be due to TKP + F2

not to mention that if ermac takes every JIP with b114 fireball which is 8-9% unpunishable chip hes building tons of meter and not letting sheeva use hers on the one or two moves that actually are viable to spend meter on other than breaker

i only consider sheeva annoying due to her unbreakables

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

woah hadnt read point 3

ermac doesnt have to poke, ever

i only consider sheeva annoying due to her unbreakables

If you don't poke then how do you keep pressure up when you are -2?

 

[Qwark28]

If you don't poke then how do you keep pressure up when you are -2?

because of 2 in 312, eat it and ermac gets a free jip, if this works on chars who can actually duck the string then this works on sheeva

not to mention the threat of the throw

 

[Metzos]

If you don't poke then how do you keep pressure up when you are -2?

Just to clarify something here. You use 312 on block to bait any future down pokes from the opponent and punish accordingly. Its not like always after a blocked 312 Ermac will go for a down poke. Its a mix up.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Just to clarify something here. You use 312 on block to bait any future down pokes from the opponent and punish accordingly. Its not like always after a blocked 312 Ermac will go for a down poke. Its a mix up.

Exactly. The 3,1,2, will all hit Sheeva while she is blocking. She is now +2 making a d3 fireball guaranteed with push back making her get space and out of Ermac's pressure. Unless of course you are waiting to block the d3, then if you do you will have a nice amount of time to counterpoke before the fireball comes out, but if the Ermac is duck blocking waiting to counter poke that opens him up to eat the 43% low grab.

 

[Metzos]

Exactly. The 3,1,2, will all hit Sheeva while she is blocking. She is now +2 making a d3 fireball guaranteed with push back making her get space and out of Ermac's pressure.

If you cancel d3 to fire ball, Ermac could use d3, after he blocks Sheeva's d3, which lowers his hit box a lot and the fire ball could whiff. Have you tested that ?

 

[BlackBryan]

Hmm. Kano vs ermac @5-5. Very possible, but in my experience its more like 7-3 mac. At the same time, I'm pretty free to ermac in general soooo i could definitely be wrong.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

If you cancel d3 to fire ball, Ermac could use d3, after he blocks Sheeva's d3, which lowers his hit box a lot and the fire ball could whiff. Have you tested that ?

Actually I just edited my post. If you block my d3, you will have plenty of time, (like 13 frames) to hit d3 before my fireball even comes out. Just be wary of the low grab.

Lets put this at 6-4 Ermac, and just tell all the Ermac's out there to be wary of the low grab.

 

[Metzos]

Hmm. Kano vs ermac @5-5. Very possible, but in my experience its more like 7-3 mac. At the same time, I'm pretty free to ermac in general soooo i could definitely be wrong.

I have been playing this MU for a loooong time vs Hidan's Kano. Trust me its 5 - 5

 

[Metzos]

Edited the Ermac - Sheeva MU.

 

[Espio]

Edited the Ermac - Sheeva MU.

Agree on Sheeva.

 

[Qwark28]

Actually I just edited my post. If you block my d3, you will have plenty of time, (like 13 frames) to hit d3 before my fireball even comes out. Just be wary of the low grab.

Lets put this at 6-4 Ermac, and just tell all the Ermac's out there to be wary of the low grab.

may i also add its beneficial for ermac to actually block the fireball and get pushed back to sweep, sheeva can do nothing safe under tkp threat while she at least has armour and mediocre counterpoke options vs ermacs pressure

7-3, this isnt a slightly bad matchup, you made a point before that ermacs in a mixup game after he eats a tele, one correct tele read is 11% and further wakeup yomi, one failed tele and ermac gets 30% plus and can freely position himself to either pressure or zone you.

VERY shity risk-reward for sheeva, VERY meter dependant and unable to actually build it and she actually still helps ermac even if she forces him to disengage pressure.

also he doesnt need to break, shes mostly unbreakable, therefore, he has access to 10% more dmg at least to every punish and an occasional unbreakable xray

Metzos
Espio

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

If Ermac vs. Sheeva is 7-3, then my entire MU list for Sheeva is wrong.

 

[Qwark28]

If Ermac vs. Sheeva is 7-3, then my entire MU list for Sheeva is wrong.

IMO its 6,5 or a hard 6-4

 

[Error]

IMO its 6,5 or a hard 6-4

6-5?

 

[Qwark28]

6-5?

decimals.

 

[Espio]

I think it's 4-6 in Ermac's favor when it comes to Sheeva.

3-7 is really a steep number and a bit too much to me. Ermac's offense is okay and his space control is really solid, but he doesn't dominate her. She can still bypass his zoning with well placed telestomps and sneak out fireballs here and there. When she does get in she has decent frame traps and her armor can be annoying to deal with as it's all safe on block, but it's not that daunting to keep it 5-5.


She doesn't build meter too good from far away due to most of her options being so slow (ground pound, fireball etc), which means they get read easier, so she can't trade all that easily. He definitely has strong answers for her tools, she has answers for his as well to where the match is still competitive.



As for punishing telestomp, pretty much the entire cast can punish it for 30%+ if they read it right so while Ermac is definitely among those that can, it's not match up specific.

A lot of Sheeva's combo enders are breakable, which is true, so that does give him more access to his higher damaging bnb's, which is a fair point, although you can certainly break before she gets to the grab n punch enders.


4-6 is reasonable, play some matches with KillPhil and Chongo's Ermacs have made me reevaluate that match up, I think Ermac beats her for sure.


Since I was summoned here, I wanna comment on two more match ups that I've been running with the above two Ermac players, I already gave my opinion a while ago, but I wanted to touch base because I've run these two match ups more lately.


I posted my thoughts a while ago Metzos but I wanted to chime in again because of my more recent experiences with the Ermac match up.


Stryker 5-5: This match up is really fun and really tricky. It's so footsie based and read intensive, very fun match up for both characters. It makes me want to pick up Ermac so I can run it from that perspective too lol .

Jade 4-6(Ermac wins): I used to find this match up really annoying and difficult, but I'm comfortable with it now. Patience really is a virtue in this match up as well as solid spacing, it's a very competitive match up and I'm starting to think it's a blast to play.

 

[Error]

decimals.

Oh, you used a comma, so it didn't look like a 6.5

 

[Metzos]

I have put Ermac - Sheeva 6 - 4 Ermac for the time being. I really hope i can attend EVO and play against your Sheeva GGA Jeremiah, so we both can have a better understanding of the MU. Qwark28, going as far and say its 7 - 3 Ermac is a bit too much. Its not like the QC MU where Ermac can pretty much dominate QC everywhere in the screen if he plays the MU correctly. Sheeva can still get in and she has some solid frame traps and mix ups up close, so ill just keep it as a 6 - 4 Ermac atm. Espio, i also agree with the Ermac - Stryker and Ermac - Jade MU numbers as well. Although i have yet to play against a good Stryker. That and Sheeva are the two MU's i m almost completely clueless about.