Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Compbros]

I though we settled this a few months back and i tough it was set in stone already:

Blind picks if both parts desires to do so.
Loser can pick another variation - Winner stays variation locked
Losers switches characters - Winner is still character locked but he can switch variations, and winner has to pick variation first.

which is what you've suggested on the OP, i though 80% of TYM agreed on these already.

Those who says otherwise i dunno what they're thinking.

I haven't seen that anywhere, considering you're the first to point this out it seems that several people have yet to hear about this. If it's already been decided then we need a central thread stickied somewhere.

 

[JDM]

I like that.

If the loser changes character, winner can switch variation. If the loser keeps the same character, winner cannot switch variation.

 

[interloko]

I prefer character and variation lock for winner and the loser can change the stage OR character and/or variation.
Random stage at first fight and if loser change character or variation.

You can't give the loser all the advantage of change character variation and stage and you can't give the winner the option of counter pick (change variation).

 

[RoboCop]

I gotta say, this thread actually changed my mind about this subject. I came in with the firm opinion that variations should be locked, just to keep things simple and consistent with the way they've worked in the past. However, the variation system itself is unlike anything we've seen in the past in MK, so maybe it's time to revisit the rules on character locks.

I am now firmly on the side of unlocked variations. This should reduce the effects of counter-picking, allowing player skill to have a greater impact on matches, without completely negating the strategy of counter-picking. It will also make the difference between some variations being viable or not. If variations are locked, then a variation with even just 1 or 2 heavily unfavorable matchups will likely not see much tournament life. But if allowed to switch to a variation that can handle those matchups, we should be able to see a much wider showing of variations and characters in the tournament scene.

As far as the benefits of a total-lock system, I really can't see any, other than putting more of an emphasis on the power of the character-select screen. But is that a good thing? My opinion is a solid "no".

TLDR: I think unlocked variations are healthy for the tournament scene and general MK community.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I haven't seen that anywhere, considering you're the first to point this out it seems that several people have yet to hear about this. If it's already been decided then we need a central thread stickied somewhere.

I didn't scrolled all down, but it seems that this is the thread

http://testyourmight.com/threads/the-argument-against-variation-lock.47074/

I don't mind having this set in stone already.

 

[TopTierHarley]

I prefer character and variation lock for winner and the loser can change the stage OR character and/or variation.
Random stage at first fight and if loser change character or variation.

You can't give the loser all the advantage of change character variation and stage and you can't give the winner the option of counter pick (change variation).

No stage picking, stages should be random every time.

 

[Living Corpse]

The guy with the advantage doesn't always win, learning how to beat the other guy when you're at a disadvantage is part of learning the game.

Adapt.

 

[Compbros]

I didn't scrolled all down, but it seems that this is the thread

http://testyourmight.com/threads/the-argument-against-variation-lock.47074/

I don't mind having this set in stone already.

It seems that was still being discussed when it petered out so I don't know about it being decided this was the rule but, yes, this should be how it's done.

The guy with the advantage doesn't always win, learning how to beat the other guy when you're at a disadvantage is part of learning the game.

Adapt.

Then there should be no counter picking period.

 

[bdizzle2700]

Lets flip a coin. Heads, winner chooses variation before loser variation. Tails, winner is locked all the way through. Whatever it lands on, it was meant to be.

 

[just_2swift]

Blood God.

 

[Montanx]

There are rules when you guys play? What about "Pick who you want and play better than your opponent if you want to win."? Is blaming a loss on counterpicking that prevalent?

 

[HeroesNZ]

Variation Lock is akin to letting the loser change character and pick their stage in Injustice.

The way I see it is, after a match, you have 3 options:

* You can hit rematch to go straight back into the match.

* Loser can change character or variation.
- If loser changes variation you keep yours.
- If loser changes character you can change your variation, after which the loser picks his variation.
(*Note, the loser has to be able to see which variation the winner picks to give him more of an advantage.)

* Loser keeps everything the same and a stage is randomly selected.

This makes it just like Injustice/MK9 except in this case, the winner can counter-pick to a certain extent. The loser still gets the advantage.

There's a 15-page thread on this already lol.

 

[haketh]

We dnt know if variations vastly change characters or not (only the testers have an idea of this), so I say we just do a community vote if it is really that much of an issue. @haketh has good knowledge of past games that have had variations before so he can give good input on that and we can go from there. If we are going to settle this, let us do it NOW

Pretty much anytime the loser goes back to the character select screen or changes anything winner can change variation, generally before the loser picks their character *In Melty/SamshoIV* or before they pick their variation of it's on a separate screen *In Arcana Heart*.

I gotta say, this thread actually changed my mind about this subject. I came in with the firm opinion that variations should be locked, just to keep things simple and consistent with the way they've worked in the past. However, the variation system itself is unlike anything we've seen in the past in MK, so maybe it's time to revisit the rules on character locks.

Just a note, it's never been full lock for winner in anything that has used this system.

No stage picking, stages should be random every time.

Yup

 

[DanCock]

Winner is not variation locked if loser changes variation and/or character.

 

[JDM]

There are rules when you guys play? What about "Pick who you want and play better than your opponent if you want to win."? Is blaming a loss on counterpicking that prevalent?

lmao

 

[Juggs]

To me, without knowing how much variations will impact the characters and match-ups, this is what I would want the rule to be.

If loser changes character, winner can change variation.
If loser changes variation only, winner cannot change variation.

 

[Charybdis]

winner can change variation if loser changes character is the best option but I could see a full winner lock because it's the simplest option and hardest to fuck up.

I wonder could we get input from the devs on this as to which system they think the game would be best suited to

 

[JTB123]

To me, without knowing how much variations will impact the characters and match-ups, this is what I would want the rule to be.

If loser changes character, winner can change variation.
If loser changes variation only, winner cannot change variation.

I think to start with this makes the most sense, stages should always be random.

 

[Barrogh]

Most people seem to just want to null the entire concept of variations

IMO concept of variations is what we as community and TOs will make out of them, unless NRS will come out with their own tournament mode or specific rules for repicking in online / facwar games, because community then will definitely take them as default and maybe will tweak in the future.

We've had things like this before where players still went into matches not fully knowing the rules. If there's a bunch of different rules per tournament then players may end up getting confused. An example of this is Injustice and stage counterpicking, there were a handful of tournaments that did it differently and players would use the method of a previous tournament or something.

I don't always pay attention to tournament announcements, but most of those I see contain location where it will take place first, rules second, and only then you'll see the rest of crap. Honestly, even if we can agree on something here, you will still have to make sure that this another TO isn't going for something original, so...
Honestly, I believe we should ask mods to make sure that whoever posts what looks like tournament announcement also adds all the info that is needed. We can even provide a sample and sticky it.

Stage should always be random regardless. I'm sure everyone here agrees on that at least.

To this day I'm still not sure if IGAU even has random stage select lol.

When you sign up for a tournament... You have to sign up your character also... Then you cannot change anything ever and if you do you are banished from all existence.... This seems fair to me..

I heard that's what japanese do. Expect at least one such tournament to show up.
Actually, I've even seen such tournament for MK9...

Make a pole!

And inscribe rules on it. Then plant said pole at the entrance, wherever your tournament is held.

Seriously this is easily the best option. What is the point of variations if the rules end up being "absolute variation lock"?? Might as well not have them at all.

The point of them is to be picked, I believe. Not that standard set of locks would somehow thwart that
But seriously though, don't worry. People will definitely try to use this system to make fights more diverse if it will indeed be proven to serve that purpose.

 

[cyke_out]

Here we go again.

People are going to point out examples how others games allow the winner to switch up aspects of his character- ultras, grooves, ism's, moons.... And if it has worked fine for years in competitive play why bother changing it?

Other people are gonna straw man that mkx is not the same as those games for whatever reason.

The reasonable people who have some knowledge of the larger FGC and more games than just what NRS makes is going to counter point with logic.

Then the other people are going to stick their fingers in their ears while yelling about the evils of counter picking.


Repeat for the next 500 posts.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

i am for freedom to choose everything at any time.
!!!

 

[Barrogh]

Here we go again.

People are going to point out examples how others games allow the winner to switch up aspects of his character- ultras, grooves, ism's, moons.... And if it has worked fine for years in competitive play why bother changing it?

Other people are gonna straw man that mkx is not the same as those games for whatever reason.

The reasonable people who have some knowledge of the larger FGC and more games than just what NRS makes is going to counter point with logic.

Then the other people are going to stick their fingers in their ears while yelling about the evils of counter picking.


Repeat for the next 500 posts.

And yet some people will act like they already know everything

 

[cyke_out]

And yet some people will act like they already know everything

Yep, fortunately, for some of those people, it's not an act.

 

[Magnum Magpie]

I think there should be a setting (kinda like hidden cursor) but you can see what character and variation you pick but they don't, it's pretty much the same thing but.,'

 

[TarkatanDentist]

IMO, the best and easiest option would be for both sides to be able to pick whichever character and variation they want afresh every time.

Since it seems few people agree with that, the alternative of 'winner can change variation if loser changes character' seems mostly fair.