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Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

How should counterpicking be handled?

  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. picks variation

    Votes: 77 27.8%
  • Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. pick char.

    Votes: 20 7.2%
  • Winner is not variation locked if loser changes variation and/or character.

    Votes: 36 13.0%
  • Winner is character/variation locked no matter what loser does.

    Votes: 144 52.0%

  • Total voters
    277
  • Poll closed .
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HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Ok fair enough,

So we'd esscentially be letting the winner change their Variation based on the losing player's character selection?
...Err, yeah?

If loser changes character, winner can change variation. Winner picks variation before loser so loser gets final counterpick.

If the loser doesn't change character, then winner's locked.

This promotes character loyalty. I'm sure that people would have more fun playing the characters they grew up with/enjoy the most, as opposed to playing a character just because their favourite sucks and they want to win. More passion = Longer competitive life.
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
Question I want to reiterate since it also got trampled into the ground: does anyone believe a consensus can be built in the next three weeks and successfully implemented? Seeing the conviction with which people tout their side and the balance of the divide makes me simply not believe we can get everyone on one page about this.

Compbros's original question was looking only for a unified ruleset anyways, not one that everyone liked. Anybody got any thoughts on how to actually reach a decision here, with the acknowledgment that regardless of what it is, it may need to be revisited later and at least half the community won't be happy with it to start regardless?

I think we need to drag people who regularly attend their locals back in here and see what those events intend to do, and where the breakdown of that leaves us. Whatever decision is made should reflect what the people who are most likely to play in tournament and travel actually want - not exclusively, since we do want the community to grow - but that seems to me like the best possible starting point.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Question I want to reiterate since it also got trampled into the ground: does anyone believe a consensus can be built in the next three weeks and successfully implemented? Seeing the conviction with which people tout their side and the balance of the divide makes me simply not believe we can get everyone on one page about this.

Compbros's original question was looking only for a unified ruleset anyways, not one that everyone liked. Anybody got any thoughts on how to actually reach a decision here, with the acknowledgment that regardless of what it is, it may need to be revisited later and at least half the community won't be happy with it to start regardless?

I think we need to drag people who regularly attend their locals back in here and see what those events intend to do, and where the breakdown of that leaves us. Whatever decision is made should reflect what the people who are most likely to play in tournament and travel actually want - not exclusively, since we do want the community to grow - but that seems to me like the best possible starting point.
Doubtful.

The worst part about this is, even Tournament Organizer's themselves are just as split on this. Some are doing variation unlock and some are doing full locks. Impossible situation imo.
 

Ecodus

I ain't got time to bleed.
You're the first person in over 300 comments to make a decent counter point. Congrats. Now to address a few things you mentioned.

Yes it is still counter picking either way. No one here who has made legitimate points is trying to kill counterpicks. For gameplay sake, which do you think would lead to more balance? I don't see how 75-90 variations being locked can be balanced when playing someone who knows the roster well. It would be "equal opportunity", yes, but how "hype" would it be watching a 3/5 set with 4 counter picks in it?

Though here's the biggest gap in your argument. No one is forcing the winner to switch. He has the option to upon opponent switching character. There is no mystery here, no confusion. The winner can simply stay with his character, or he can switch variations first when the winner picks a new character. So if I lose and switch to Kano, if the winner doesn't want to risk anything he can simply stay on his variation. If I lose and switch to Kano, and he knows Commando 8-2's his variation, he can either risk switching to a different variation thinking I'm going to pick Commando or he can simply stay put and take his chances against my counter pick. The loser still has the counter advantage, it just lends the winner options against losing at the character select screen.

This is the point everyone is making that is saying unlock variation.
Thanks, like I said before I don't think I'm necessarily right, just tossing my opinion out there. I'm glad it made some sense.

I'm not trying to kill counter picking, the only way to completely kill counter picking would be for the T.O.s to enforce a full character and variation lock at registration. I.E. You sign up for the tournament with your Tag, character and variation and cannot change from that. I strongly doubt that will ever happen at a major, nor would I really like to see that.

My points on counter picking don't take hype into account. I am just considering the most fair and simple way to run a tournament. I am taking the "human element" out of it. Which is why opinions on MUs don't play into my opinions. It's also why I am not concerned about character loyalty. I think you agreed that the locked winner way would provide the most fair and equal way of running a tournament, which is my only point.
 

Ecodus

I ain't got time to bleed.
This promotes character loyalty. I'm sure that people would have more fun playing the characters they grew up with/enjoy the most, as opposed to playing a character just because their favourite sucks and they want to win. More passion = Longer competitive life.
I don't disagree with this. But my opinion on winner variation lock stays the same. I still believe it is the most "fair" way to run the tournament. I definitely see your point, though.

Thoughts on stage selection? I'm hoping for double random at all times.
 

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
I don't disagree with this. But my opinion on winner variation lock stays the same. I still believe it is the most "fair" way to run the tournament. I definitely see your point, though.

Thoughts on stage selection? I'm hoping for double random at all times.
Yeah, always double random.
 

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
Doubtful.

The worst part about this is, even Tournament Organizer's themselves are just as split on this. Some are doing variation unlock and some are doing full locks. Impossible situation imo.
Made even more impossible because NRS has been tightlipped on the situation. I tweeted each member of the team separately about this, with 0 responses. Not that their recommendation would be the be all/end all, but it would carry some significant weight.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Made even more impossible because NRS has been tightlipped on the situation. I tweeted each member of the team separately about this, with 0 responses. Not that their recommendation would be the be all/end all, but it would carry some significant weight.
Yea they aren't saying anything at all on the subject. Not sure if they don't want to get involved or aren't sure themselves.
 

REDARROWBUGGY7

@REDARROWBUGGY7
Here is a short piece of philosophy for the community followed by my thoughts on the matter.

"One of the best-known Chinese philosophers, Sun Tzu (544–496 BC) who wrote The Art of War (also known as The Thirteen Chapters) was born during this period in the state of Qi. Sun Tzu’s work which is recognized as the oldest military treatise and one of the finest of all military classics played an important role in shaping ancient China and helped develop military (and more recently, business) strategies. For further details of Sun Tzu’s Art of War and his life, see Sun Tzu [1] and Tang [2].

One of the descendents of Sun Tzu, Sun Bin, was also a respected philosopher and a military strategist who witnessed and reported several interesting events in the state of Qi. Sun Bin relates a story known as “Tianji’s Horse Race” which is well-known and popular in China. Sun Bin was a friend of General Tianji of the Kingdom of Qi who liked to race horses. One day, the King of Qi wanted to race his horses with those of Tianji’s. The King and Tianji each selected three horses with different speed classes. The King’s first horse (say, K1) was faster than all three of Tianji’s horses but his second horse (K2) was only faster than Tianji’s second fastest (T2) and the slowest (T3) horses. The King’s slowest horse (K3) was only faster than Tianji’s slowest horse (T3). Sun Bin reports that the King and Tianji chose the same class of horses for each race. That is, in the first race the first class horses (K1 vs. T1) competed and in the second and third races the second and third class horses (K2 vs. T2 and K3 vs. T3) competed. Naturally, because Tianji’s horse in each class was slower than the King’s in the same class, Tianji’s horses lost all three races.

Sun Bin offered his friend Tianji some strategic advise to help him win the race. Having learned that the King would continue using the initial winning strategy of racing his horses in the original sequence (K1,K2,K3), Sun Bin suggested Tianji the following strategy: In the first round use the third-class horse (T3) to compete against the King’s first-class horse (K1); in the second round use the first-class horse (T1) to compete against the King’s second (K2) and in the third round use the second horse (T2) to compete against the King’s third horse (K3). The story ends when Tianji uses the strategy suggested by Sun Bin and wins the horse race with one loss and two wins.

In the parlance of modern game theory we would call Sun Bin’s advice to Tianji to use the sequence (T3,T1,T2) against the King’s fixed strategy of (K1,K2,K3) the “best response” strategy for Tianji. In this case, as the King would race his horses in the same order (K1,K2,K3), Tianji can win 2-to-1 by racing his horses in the order (T3,T1,T2) and receiving the payoff of one unit."

This is in essence what MKX could potentially turn into if the character-variation unlock rule set is not accepted. Players could be playing for the first match only by adopting a hard character-variation counter-pick strategy and may rely on lopsided 8-2 matchups to maximize their chances of winning the rest of the set. Players will not have to risk going even against anyone should they win the first match because they can simply play 8-2 character-variation counter-pick and win by default.

My personal opinion on the matter is less about the discussions about hard picking but rather to reduce the complaints that will rise from players adopting an 8-2 counter-pick strategy. There's nothing inherently wrong with counter-picking per se but in the end such an extreme form of counter-picking will hurt the growth of the community and ultimately hurt the tournament scene. It is my opinion that the rule set must enforce fair play while not necessarily removing intelligent tournament strategies such as counter-picking. Reducing the extremes to which counter-picking could potentially take place in MKX is ultimately what many people want. Top players will rise above regardless and counter-picking will always remain a valid strategy in tournament play. However, the growth of the scene will in the end be about encouraging Average Joe to be able to play his favorite character at a tournament and not end up being pigeon-holed into playing another character entirely because he will be hard counter-picked on his character-variation at the character select screen leaving Average Joe no choice but to trudge through an 8-2 match before he can then character-variation counter-pick his opponent.

The game is not out yet but let's not beat around the bush. With over 50 variations there will be 8-2 matchups and the variation system has been introduced in an attempt to go around or at the very least reduce the extremes of such an issue. Should variation lock be accepted, a large portion of character-variations will simply not make the cut and MKX will turn into yet another 4 character game so to speak. This will hurt the growth of the NRS scene as a whole, casual and competitive. Is that what the community wants? Have we, as a community, not learned from our past?

I cast my vote, and let the chips fall where they may.
 
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Shady

Noob
From what I have seen, a variation can change the way the character plays. While it's not drastic it can change and provide an extra advantage. The winner should be locked into both the character and the variation, same way as in Marvel you're not allowed to change team order or assist type of you win.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
"Nothing is changed with or without locks" is a very much disingenuous statement. "Well they're just going to win two matches anyways" is a pretty glib way of looking at it; in that scenario you're giving people a way to almost always stay on top of their advantage.

I'm looking at it purely from a numbers standpoint. I can't take any player skill into account so I can only look at the "3-7" aspect of it. No, if you're stuck with character lock it's the same situation as being variation unlocked in the scenario you gave me.

Full lock: Player 1 wins with 7-3 variation A, Player 2 counter picks variation A with character X's variation C which makes it 6-4, Player 1 loses, Player 1 counter picks with variation B which 7-3's character X's variation C. End result = 2-1 win for player 1. Again, pure numbers, no player skill. This is the most likely outcome in that scenario.

Variation unlock: Player 1 wins with 7-3 variation A, Player 2 counter picks variation A with character Y, Player 1 chooses best variation based on opponent's character (B), Player 2 chooses variation B which makes it 6-4, Player 1 loses, Player 1 counter picks with variation C which 7-3's character Y's variation B. End result = 2-1 win for player 1.


In that scenario the outcomes do not change which is why I said "nothing is changed" and "they're gonna win two matches regardless of what the rules are". I was purely going off the scenario presented which was this:

How do you feel about your choice if there were, in theory, a character in the game who could say, 7-3 or worse anybody in the game depending on their variation?


My answer was based off this, it's not glib or anything, it's just the numbers I was given.

That said, I think there's equally as poor ones coming from both sides of the argument. The only thing I see in this argument the more I think about is insufficient information to make an educated decision. We have examples of games that have gone both ways in similar situations - when Haketh brought up Arcana Heart for example, it was to discuss that they started one way and changed it later. Bringing up those scenarios was one minute way to highlight how additional information is going to make a huge difference in this decision; note that the scenarios I presented are not even mutually exclusive.

What more information could we possibly gain? The reason it was changed for Arcana was because there really wasn't a lot out there like it. This isn't like changing Injustice to 3/5 because of the speed of the game, we know that variations change characters. What does playing the game give us access to, information wise, that we don't already have? The only thing actually playing gives us is how much a specific character's playstyle is changed per variation but the system itself is in place and known. We know what they do, we can make an informed decision now because actually playing the game for days, weeks, months, what have you will likely grant us no additional knowledge on the variation system.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Why is this thread still open? We have tournaments scheduled already with Winner Character / Variation Locked Already. This is the way it needs to be run at least until EVO.

If for some reason the community thinks we should change it then it will be discussed.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Why is this thread still open? We have tournaments scheduled already with Winner Character / Variation Locked Already. This is the way it needs to be run at least until EVO.

If for some reason the community thinks we should change it then it will be discussed.

We also could have tournaments where it's not being run like that. We should test out both options as best we can, even if it means full lock at regional/majors and variation unlock at locals, so we can THEN make a decision for or post-EVO. We shouldn't wait 3-4 months before we even begin experimenting with other methods.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Can anyone give me a reason why it should be full lock other than "that's how it's always been done so let's keep it simple"?
Yes, you beat your opponent, why should you change anything? If your opponent counter picks you and beats you the next match then you have the same option to counterpick.

Hopefully this rule makes people learn match ups instead of just counter picking like crazy.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
Yes, you beat your opponent, why should you change anything? If your opponent counter picks you and beats you the next match then you have the same option to counterpick.

Hopefully this rule makes people learn match ups instead of just counter picking like crazy.

Because there's more factors at play here than just characters. It's character + something instead of just character A vs. character P. This means nothing as the character switch rule I'm advocating would be the same, if you get counterpicked then you still get a chance to counterpick. It just adds a level.

There's a BETTER chance at counter picking with full lock. There's 30 characters we know of with 3 variations, that means you have 89 OPTIONS against your opponents variation lock that wouldn't be a mirror match. With variation unlock that number gets cut down because now you have to choose a character that does well against all 3 variations so you don't put yourself in a bad situation instead of having 89 options to get a favorable matchup.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I'm still waiting for the day when we have a KI type situation when picking characters online.
you have ZERO idea who the person is going to pick going into it.

alas.... that probably won't happen .... ever.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
I'm still waiting for the day when we have a KI type situation when picking characters online.
you have ZERO idea who the person is going to pick going into it.

alas.... that probably won't happen .... ever.

Blind pick first match could easily be a rule, though there could be errors thanks to the variation system and people would have to back out, revealing their character. Or they could just say "I didn't mean to pick that character" just so they could see who their opponent picked.

On second thought, it's not really tournament viable.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Blind pick first match could easily be a rule, though there could be errors thanks to the variation system and people would have to back out, revealing their character. Or they could just say "I didn't mean to pick that character" just so they could see who their opponent picked.

On second thought, it's not really tournament viable.
as it is currently no

but the way tournaments are ran right now are really a joke if you think about it.
*DISCLAIMER: TO's are awesome. This is nothing against ANYTHING our community leaders do to keep our tournaments alive, ran well and the players happy*

Players shoudln't be sitting beside each other. Players shouldn't have to shard headphone jacks. They SURE AS SHIT shouldn't have to share monitor space. (no offense... but some of you "larger" dudes take up so much of the area that i see some players sitting at some of the funniest angles). They should be sitting on opposite sides of a table with their own monitor. The game itself should lend this. Blind pick SHOULD ALWAYS HAPPEN.

But again....... casuals get the money.
Tournament mode would be awesome, but right now it is just a pipe dream.
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
If you win your match you have the upper-hand already, why should you be able to switch again and have more of an upper hand? That doesn't make sense nor seem fair IMO.

I cannot see how in tournament play the winner of a match counterpicking the loser (I know you pick first)

The winner should have some kind of "penalty" I guess would be the word for this.

The winner of the 1st Match has :
  • The Upper-hand in the set
  • Momentum of the set
  • And has the counter-picking option if he loses the 2nd Match.
And on top of all of these you want to give the winner the option pre-counter-pick to give themselves the upper-hand again?

This is my opinion and nothing is going to change my mind on this topic.
 

Compbros

Man of Tomorrow
If you win your match you have the upper-hand already, why should you be able to switch again and have more of an upper hand? That doesn't make sense nor seem fair IMO.

I cannot see how in tournament play the winner of a match counterpicking the loser (I know you pick first)

The winner should have some kind of "penalty" I guess would be the word for this.

The winner of the 1st Match has :
  • The Upper-hand in the set
  • Momentum of the set
  • And has the counter-picking option if he loses the 2nd Match.
And on top of all of these you want to give the winner the option pre-counter-pick to give themselves the upper-hand again?

This is my opinion and nothing is going to change my mind on this topic.

If you win the second match then it's a tied situation and mostly neutral minus momentum which isn't quantifiable. It's not a switch, it's limiting and expanding counterpick simultaneously. The loser still has the absolute final say in how the matchup turns out since they still get to pick last. It's not an upper hand since loser still has the final pick. The loser in MKX with full lock essentially gets to double counter pick the winner's character and variation, you can't look at it like MK9 or most other fighters, this is a different beast.


I don't see a double counter pick is the answer.

The penalty is still being counter picked, which they would be, it just wouldn't be in two different ways (character and variation). The penalty is still there.


The winner of the second match has: Momentum. How is it fair to allow counter picking in that situation? I don't see this argument holding water when it comes to this particular debate.

It's not pre, it's post. Post character switch they can counter pick the character but not the variation. So if Sonya's A variation does well against Shinnok then winner may go with that but Shinnok's C variation does well against Sonya's A so the loser may do that. In full lock loser may pick Cassie, which does well against Scorpion, and then pick Variation B, which does well against Scorpion A which the winner is locked to.

Minds can be changed, ask @karaokelove
 
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