Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Doombawkz]

Still not sure on what the problem is.

The "simplest" argument doesn't work because there's already a system in place for this kind of thing, and its not double lock.

There is no "counterpicking" argument because if you pick a character/variation that loses to your opponent's pick when he is stuck on the same character and picks his first, thats completely your own fault.

There is no "advantage" issue, loser still gets to pick his variation that gives him the best chance in general, and its no different than what double lock would do aside from allow for more diverse play.

Counterpicking and smart play still have places, but they aren't going to shatter the competitive scene into pieces unless the game itself has severe balance issues.

So like why didn't this thread end eons ago? What actual argument is there against it aside from people being lazy and not wanting to learn a system that exists but isn't used in injustice or mk9?

 

[Rip Torn]

So like why didn't this thread end eons ago? What actual argument is there against it aside from people being lazy and not wanting to learn a system that exists but isn't used in injustice or mk9?

One argument can be made that the Characters with 3 very strong variations will rise to the top of the tier list while characters with only 1 strong variation will be less played due to the nature of the rule set. So instead of having 15 variations that are tournament viable, you have only a few characters that are viable.

 

[SaltShaker]

One argument can be made that the Characters with 3 very strong variations will rise to the top of the tier list while characters with only 1 strong variation will be less played due to the nature of the rule set. So instead of having 15 variations that are tournament viable, you have only a few characters that are viable.

I'd much rather have a few top tier characters (like almost every fighting game ever) than the pause and character switch to 7-3 after each match that the majority of players would do once they learned the game.

 

[Doombawkz]

One argument can be made that the Characters with 3 very strong variations will rise to the top of the tier list while characters with only 1 strong variation will be less played due to the nature of the rule set. So instead of having 15 variations that are tournament viable, you have only a few characters that are viable.

Wouldn't they regardless since having 3 strong variations doesn't stop them all from being strong?
Like a character with 3 strong variations will do exactly as well with variation unlocked as they would if it were locked.
Likewise, a character with only 1 viable variation would suffer all the same.

Plus its doubtful we will have one character who is bodying the entire cast 7-3, and most likely the "strong" variations will simply be the most consistent ones. Not ones that win a lot, but ones that simply don't lose all that much.

 

[Rip Torn]

Likewise, a character with only 1 viable variation would suffer all the same.

The character with only 1 viable variation suffers more because only changing variations after losing lets you counterpick the winner while forcing them to use the same variation. 1 viable variation characters can't do that.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Except it's been shown to not have a negative impact at all ever for the games that have had it before. And get the IGAU example out of here, that shit only worked because how good & easy Aquaman was.

So you're for variation lock now?

And it was no better in MK9 -- it applies to pretty much every fg.

 

[insignis]

If everybody's so afraid of messing up the hidden character select. At least let the winner to choose variation AND with hidden select (if he wants) if loser changes character/variation. Loser will have the whole damn roster with all damn variations at his advantage - winner needs some space to maneuver.

 

[Doombawkz]

The character with only 1 viable variation suffers more because only changing variations after losing lets you counterpick the winner while forcing them to use the same variation. 1 viable variation characters can't do that.

If they were locked into that 1 variation, they would suffer because they can't switch variation.
If they had options, that 1 variation is the only viable one so they would be stuck with it because its the only viable one.

Regardless of which side of the fence you're on, the problems are no different. The weak will be weak, and the strong will be strong.
Loser counterpicking winner doesn't stop just because the winner can change variation, but you have to be smarter than knowing how to play rock, paper, scissors.

 

[Rip Torn]

If they were locked into that 1 variation, they would suffer because they can't switch variation.
If they had options, that 1 variation is the only viable one so they would be stuck with it because its the only viable one.

Regardless of which side of the fence you're on, the problems are no different. The weak will be weak, and the strong will be strong.

Dude, it is different... A character with multiple good variations can switch variations while keeping the winner locked in the same variation. A character with only 1 good variation can't do that, he'd have to switch characters, allowing the winner to change variations. How is that not different?

My argument is about character variety in tournament. If Quan Chi has 1 really good variation, but the other 2 suck, I still want to see Quan Chi in tournament. Under your rules, A Quan Chi player would be highly discouraged from using him at all.

 

[Doombawkz]

Dude, it is different... A character with multiple good variations can switch variations while keeping the winner locked in the same variation. A character with only 1 good variation can't do that, he'd have to switch characters, allowing the winner to change variations. How is that not different?

My argument is about character variety in tournament. If Quan Chi has 1 really good variation, but the other 2 suck, I still want to see Quan Chi in tournament. Under your rules, A Quan Chi player would be highly discouraged from using him at all.

Not necessarily, lets say Kotal Khan has 3 good variations, and Ferra/Torr have 1 good variation.

If Ferra/Torr win their first match, Kotal can switch to another variation and keep them locked, or switch character if need be... However, what does that change? They would've stayed in that variation regardless because its their only good one.

If Kotal wins his first match, and Ferra/Torr need to switch, then they switch to a character that doesn't automatically lose to the variations Kotal has. If the player doesn't counterpick themselves, then it doesn't matter what Kotal Khan's variations are, he isn't going to have the advantage.

So no, its really not different. Either you stay with your 1 variation which you would've stayed with anyways, or you change your character and try not to counterpick yourself. Weak stay weak, strong stay strong.

Also how does that not allow variety? If QC has one good variation and the other 2 suck, then pick QC for his one good variation. Will QC be a "good character"? Maybe not a well rounded one, but if one variation is really good then you don't really need the other 2 and he can still be viable. The only scenario your problem arises in is if we consider each variation as a separate character, in which case I don't think I mind not seeing 90 different characters at the tournament.

 

[Rip Torn]

If QC has one good variation and the other 2 suck, then pick QC for his one good variation. Will QC be a "good character"? Maybe not a well rounded one, but if one variation is really good then you don't really need the other 2 and he can still be viable.

But wouldn't he be even more viable if the rules were variation locked? Yes or No?

 

[haketh]

So you're for variation lock now?

And it was no better in MK9 -- it applies to pretty much every fg.

I hella misread your post lol

 

[Doombawkz]

But wouldn't he be even more viable if the rules were variation locked? Yes or No?

No. He would be exactly as viable because regardless of the rules, if you picked him you would go to that one variation. It doesn't matter if you are locked in, or can choose it, at the end of the day one still equals one.

The only time you would pick it, or have a choice in the matter, is if you are starting the match or lost a match. Viability doesn't change since in both instances, your Quan shoe fits.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I hella misread your post lol

Lol yup, you blew me up

 

[RoboCop]

You're in Evo top 8. Your Lackey Ferra Torr just got destroyed by your opponent's Cybernetic Kano zoning, so you figure you'll go with a good counter-zoner.

You exit to the character select screen. Your opponent opens Kano's variation selection...and her cursor disappears. She secretly selects her variation and sits back.

You pause for a second. You were going to hard-counter that zoning bastard for an easy come-back; now you're not too sure. If your opponent went with Commando, your counter-zoning Displacer Raiden will get wrecked. If she stuck with Cybernetic then you're all good. After a few seconds you make the choice to forget about counter-picking and go with the character you know best.

 

[Doombawkz]

You're in Evo top 8. Your Lackey Ferra Torr just got destroyed by your opponent's Cybernetic Kano zoning, so you figure you'll go with a good counter-zoner.

You exit to the character select screen. Your opponent opens Kano's variation selection...and her cursor disappears. She secretly selects her variation and sits back.

You pause for a second. You were going to hard-counter that zoning bastard for an easy come-back; now you're not too sure. If your opponent went with Commando, your counter-zoning Displacer Raiden will get wrecked. If he stuck with Cybernetic then you're all good. After a few seconds you make the choice to forget about counter-picking and go with the character you know best.

And then you wake up because it was all a dream/nightmare, and lackey F/T would never make top 8 at evo.

 

[haketh]

Lol yup, you blew me up

Don't post half asleep kids

 

[Eji1700]

Winner keeps everything is 1. Simple and 2. may actually make the counterpick game deeper.

I've said before, but I worry that certain variations might counterpick entire characters. Reptile for example doesn't change that much between styles, so it's possible that a single character who has a bad matchup in one variation(say flying ermac) has a really good matchup vs all 3 in another(telekenetic for example). This means that if I win game 1 as flying ermac, you cannot pick reptile at all, because I could just switch to telekenetic and counter you completely.

It's possible the balance won't fall out like this, but until we have the game in our hands I think it might be better to start out with hard locks, and then change if it becomes apparent that the balance can handle it.

 

[Rip Torn]

No. He would be exactly as viable because regardless of the rules, if you picked him you would go to that one variation. It doesn't matter if you are locked in, or can choose it, at the end of the day one still equals one.

The only time you would pick it, or have a choice in the matter, is if you are starting the match or lost a match. Viability doesn't change since in both instances, your Quan shoe fits.

How can you say No? And it does matter when you win a match. Let's say you win the first match. They decide to counter your Sorcerer Quan by switching characters. You're stuck with Sorcerer because your other variations aren't viable. If you had 3 useful variations, you would have been able to counter their counter with a variation switch (here's where you keep saying you would always use the best variation anyway, not true). You're essentially making Quan a team of 3 characters, weighing down his 1 good variation with 2 bad ones.

 

[SaltShaker]

How can you say No? And it does matter when you win a match. Let's say you win the first match. They decide to counter your Sorcerer Quan by switching characters. You're stuck with Sorcerer because your other variations aren't viable.

Ok.

If you had 3 useful variations, you would have been able to counter their counter with a variation switch

No because the winner picks their variation first meaning the other person already switched most likely from their main. So now they have to use their secondary against the new variation. Still have a counter pick advantage, just not a 8-2 each match slugfest with 90 variations in the game to pick from.

You're essentially making Quan a team of 3 characters, weighing down his 1 good variation with 2 bad ones.

3 vs 90. I rather that any day than a tournament filled with Forever King vs Forever each match 1 match at a time from 90% of players. You wouldn't?

 

[Zoidberg747]

This needs to be tested at locals thoroughly. I'm talking doing one thing the first weekly, then another the next and seeing the results. Either that or some TOs or going to have to step up and go with one ruleset. There is no way in hell TYM will ever come to a consensus on anything (Unless it "breaks the rules of the game" lololol)

 

[HeroesNZ]

Winner keeps everything is 1. Simple and 2. may actually make the counterpick game deeper.

I've said before, but I worry that certain variations might counterpick entire characters. Reptile for example doesn't change that much between styles, so it's possible that a single character who has a bad matchup in one variation(say flying ermac) has a really good matchup vs all 3 in another(telekenetic for example). This means that if I win game 1 as flying ermac, you cannot pick reptile at all, because I could just switch to telekenetic and counter you completely.

It's possible the balance won't fall out like this, but until we have the game in our hands I think it might be better to start out with hard locks, and then change if it becomes apparent that the balance can handle it.

In your scenario, how would that be any different from what happens now? If someone picks Zod on Lex, there's not much Lex can do.

The thing with character lock though, is that it decreases the chances of that happening. That's the whole point of variations.

 

[kabelfritz]

Standard rules:

p1 picks buzzsaw kung lao
p2 picks Hollywood cassie

loser may switch to commando kano

stage is always outworld marketplace

 

[Rip Torn]

No because the winner picks their variation first meaning the other person already switched most likely from their main. So now they have to use their secondary against the new variation. Still have a counter pick advantage, just not a 8-2 each match slugfest with 90 variations in the game to pick from.

Yeah, they switched characters, giving me the option to pick a variation that can deal with the counter, but I don't have that counter so I must now deal with an 8-2 MU. If I had 3 variations that were all good, maybe i could counter with a variation that made it only a 4-6, but I don't.

3 vs 90. I rather that any day than a tournament filled with Forever King vs Forever each match 1 match at a time from 90% of players. You wouldn't?

He still would have been better off sticking with his main so Injustice kind of did it's job. It only failed by having a few 8-2's.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yeah, they switched characters, giving me the option to pick a variation that can deal with the counter, but I don't have that counter so I must now deal with an 8-2 MU. If I had 3 variations that were all good, maybe i could counter with a variation that made it only a 4-6, but I don't.

That's my point. Winner/Variation forces just that, a lock. So with 89 other variations to choose from the likelyhood of being 8-2'd or 7-3'd on counter pick is much higher if you're playing a character based on variation. Every match would be a Aquaman vs Catwoman fest. Top Tier will end up, say 5 characters who have 2-3 variations that can deal with most of the cast decently. Where as with winner/variation lock then it would be pointless because only a few variations would be used to prevent 7-3 counters. You prefer 5-7 Top tier characters out of 30 or 5-7 top tier variations out of 90? That's pretty much what it boils down to.