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A Tier List Crafted from Tears

Doctor Rektangle

Think outside the Box
Explain.

I've been playing Warlock for close to 3 months now, and if that 2nd bar involves what I think it involves, there is zero reason to use that move in a BNB. Ever.
Alright I shall. When I say the 2nd bar I don't even mean mid combo. Bat Quan uses bat to be safe and cover his ass. Other Sorceror Quan has armor and chip rune making people afraid to block and making him safe respectively in certain situations.

Warlock lives and dies by the unsafeness of his mix up potential with only Ex rune to make it safe. As in ending a bnb with EX portal stav and going for the reset 50/50 you'd have to spend 2 bars to be safe.

Personally the EX stab is not something worth spending meter on in a bnb but without it he suffers from a similar level of unsafeness as Mos Erma minus the ability to EX rune which just resets the 50/50 situation. He's out damaged by Ermac.

The 2 bar situation i meant mainly is below.

He has strong anti zoning potential but unfortunately outside of scoop which costs a bar to combo off of will usually require abother bar to get substantial damage the other two Quans & a lot of the kast get free. Even if used defensively on reversal or WU.

While it's nice he does have a couple WU options in this variation both are easy baits and can normally be scouted. Especially in a game that's handing out damage like it's candy on Halloween IMO
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I think the biggest outlier in this list is the fact that Quan isn't even top 3, even most of the downplayers will admit that.


Its not a weakness really its just different. It doesn't cost any resources like other pressure. Personally i think its beautifully balanced, not guaranteed like other pressure but more deadly in some respects
Well, I think Stamina loops like say LK are much better than no loops and punishable gaps. And it is a weakness, you can while playing try flip it to your advantage on a good read, but not creating the hole in the first place is better and she can do the same style mind games with her cancels a little if you are trying to bait he punish, make no mistake, removing the gaps in her Rekka would be undeniably buffing her. I agree however, it's really nice how they've designed her now. I may be underrating her a little, but I'm damn sure that she's not this top 5 character some people are calling her.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I agree and disagree with a lot

But I'll just speak in the char I play

Why is Stunt Double not A?
Yeah A Lust is the better variation but I think it's a whole tier above Stunt Double
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Alright I shall. When I say the 2nd bar I don't even mean mid combo. Bat Quan uses bat to be safe and cover his ass. Other Sorceror Quan has armor and chip rune making people afraid to block and making him safe respectively in certain situations.

Warlock lives and dies by the unsafeness of his mix up potential with only Ex rune to make it safe. As in ending a bnb with EX portal stav and going for the reset 50/50 you'd have to spend 2 bars to be safe.

Personally the EX stab is not something worth spending meter on in a bnb but without it he suffers from a similar level of unsafeness as Mos Erma minus the ability to EX rune which just resets the 50/50 situation. He's out damaged by Ermac.

The 2 bar situation i meant mainly is below.

He has strong anti zoning potential but unfortunately outside of scoop which costs a bar to combo off of will usually require abother bar to get substantial damage the other two Quans & a lot of the kast get free. Even if used defensively on reversal or WU.

While it's nice he does have a couple WU options in this variation both are easy baits and can normally be scouted. Especially in a game that's handing out damage like it's candy on Halloween IMO
Right, right....

It's true that Warlock doesn't have the meterless insurance policy for blocked mixups that Summoner and Sorcerer do, but Warlock retains the MB rune and still puts you in a very strong win/win position. A position that most characters in the upper half of the tier list wish they had in any variation.

And again, you don't have to go for the EX stab, ending with standing 4 still gives enough advantage to check with multiple mixup options. Thus retaining that meter for the MB rune option.

Nevermind just anti-zoning with Warlock, while perhaps not as much as Summoner, Warlock can still be an oppressive zoner in it's own right. It's the only variation that can true jail after MB rune anywhere on screen, and thanks to the removal of the auto-block on skulls, can use F3 to accumulate 14.5% in projectile trades. And helps you build that oh-so essential meter in the process.

Warlock having viable wakeups isn't just about using them, it's that you have them, period. That has an undeniable effect on the post-knockdown metagame and opens up other scenarios that you'd never have a chance to in the other variations. And now that the EX Scoop startup has been buffed, is also a legit punishment tool. For example, GM Sub all of a sudden can't just corner you and go ham with blocked mixups. In fact, I'm not sure if any other armored reversal in the game hurts him as hard for a blocked corner mixup.

With all that being said....

Is Warlock meter dependent? Essentially yes. But if you play your cards right in terms of meter management, you don't need it nearly as much as suggested to take games.

Is Warlock overall Quan Chi's worst variation? Very realistic possibility. But at the end of the day, this is still Quan Chi we're talking about, being Quan's worst variation is like "only" getting a bronze medal at the Olympics.

Am I disputing Warlock's placement? Ultimately no (although I have a hard time believing it's in a lower tier than some of the variations in the tiers above it). But it saddens me to see opinions of it determined by flawed notions.
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
As for Goro care to explain? Im genuinely curious.
Goro used to be bottom tier, no doubt. But 8/31 helped him out a lot.

He has a good crossup AA, the best overall pokes in the game, punchwalk is safe on block and can now be meterburned after hit confirm and a mean footsie game revolving around f3.

He now has a true tick throw string.

I don't know if you regularly play against Very Hard AI, but if you compare before and after 8/31, Goro improved the most, if the AI is any measure.
 
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Qhris

Noob
Goro used to be bottom tier, no doubt. But 8/31 helped him out a lot.

He has probably the best AA in the game, the best overall pokes in the game, punchwalk is safe on block and can now be meterburned after hit confirm and a mean footsie game revolving around f3.

He now has a combo that blockstrings into a true tick throw. It has no gaps or anything--can't be tech rolled. It hitstrings into the Command Grab anyway, so regardless of whether or not you block the combo, you're eating a Command Grab. I'm not aware of any other character in the game who can do something like that.

I don't know if you regularly play against Very Hard AI, but if you compare before and after 8/31, Goro improved the most, if the AI is any measure.
Which combo are you referring to?
 

freerf245

11 11 11 11
11, f2 vs 113 is not a good Mixup that's why said "the throw" you toss that in there fuzzying isnt something you can just simply rely on. As for EX nut punch you're right. A few characters can def get that punish. My mistake.
S1 into f24 catches fuzzy blockers a majority of the time. But it can even be double fuzzied by good players. His mixups aren't bad but anyone with a lot of experience with Johnny should block with remote ease.
 

Espio

Kokomo
COLORS!

Anyway, how is Goro still considered so bad? I feel like everyone dropped him and after he was buffed no one was left to show that he could do some shit now.
Goro is definitely fine now. Who is everyone dropping him? Decay, Armor, myself and others still play him. The only notable weaknesses he has at the moment is less than stellar mobility and a big hitbox. His pokes are still some of the best, lots of frame advantage, awesome corner carry, really good corner game and his footsies are solid too. MB punch walk has significantly improved meter issues, up 2 is superb now. Forward 3 has always been an awesome footsie tool. Down 3 on hit guarantees pressure, down 4 has insane reach, enough to check Cassie's back 1. He's not far from mid tier, might even be mid tier now.
 
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Shawnzzy

Scrub Extraordinaire
I can't see how Summoner isn't S tier; besides that, if there is no order in groups, I mostly agree.
This was my big problem with this list. In my opinion Summoner Quan is in a league of his own when comes to the ability to convert off of hits all of which can be converted to a corner carry or a vortex. He has some of the best low to no metered combos as well as oppressive zoning. His only draw back is his lack of defensive options to escape pressure, specifically in corner situations. That being said, his d1 being 6f gives him a tool to poke out of some of the game's toughest pressure, thus letting him start his game back up.
 

XxDark_

Noob
Goro is definitely fine now. Who is everyone dropping him? Decay, Armor, myself and others still play him. The only notable weaknesses he has at the moment is less than stellar mobility and a big hitbox. His pokes are still some of the best, lots of frame advantage, awesome corner carry, really good corner game and his footsies are solid too. MB punch walk has significantly improved meter issues, up 2 is superb now. Forward 3 has always been an awesome footsie tool. Down 3 on hit guarantees pressure, down 4 has instance reach, enough to check Cassie's back 1. He's not far from mid tier, might even be mid tier now.
yea I don't know why people keep sleeping on goro.
 
Goro used to be bottom tier, no doubt. But 8/31 helped him out a lot.

He has probably the best AA in the game, the best overall pokes in the game, punchwalk is safe on block and can now be meterburned after hit confirm and a mean footsie game revolving around f3.

He now has a combo that blockstrings into a true tick throw. It has no gaps or anything--can't be tech rolled. It hitstrings into the Command Grab anyway, so regardless of whether or not you block the combo, you're eating a Command Grab. I'm not aware of any other character in the game who can do something like that.

I don't know if you regularly play against Very Hard AI, but if you compare before and after 8/31, Goro improved the most, if the AI is any measure.
what string?
what aa? up 1/2 only hits directly above
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
As a Jax player, I can say pretty confidently that Jax's best variation is Wrestler, so I do believe he needs to be higher. All of his variations are amazing though so arguing which is better is kinda pointless. Jax overall in my opinion is a top 5 character. Also, I feel like people are not fully grasping how good Sun God Kotal Kahn is now
 

Doctor Rektangle

Think outside the Box
Hmm...pumped up is higher than wrestler....hmmmmm
to be fair I thought about putting all 3 Jax's in the same group. But given my experience if I had to choose a weaker of the 3, even if its slight. I'd say wrestler. Even though some people are sleeping on the tick throws
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
to be fair I thought about putting all 3 Jax's in the same group. But given my experience if I had to choose a weaker of the 3, even if its slight. I'd say wrestler. Even though some people are sleeping on the tick throws
Pls explain why. Wrestler has a better safe armored wakeup,tick throws and barely does less dmg than PU. He's GC is slower and punishable. PU isn't bad,not at all. But its weaker of those three.
 
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