Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

Barrogh · Feb 26, 2015

Magnum Magpie said:
I think there should be a setting (kinda like hidden cursor) but you can see what character and variation you pick but they don't, it's pretty much the same thing but.,'

That's pretty much how online should work. I'm not sure how to do that offline though.

RiBBz22 · Feb 26, 2015

How about we wait until the game comes out to see what it is like first so we can have an open mind going into it. Talking about laying out counter-picking rules at this stage is ridiculous. I think we all pretty much understand what all of the combinations of possible/potential options could be for counter-picking...

Jeebus.

Fractured_Shadow · Feb 26, 2015

TopTierHarley said:
Many other games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart already have a system like this in place. I see no reason as to not follow suit. If loser decides to change variation then winner is locked in both character and variation. If loser changes character winner can change variation. I don't see why we have to be different when fighting games have already had a system in place that involve variations.

I'm sure @haketh could explain more, if he feels so for the 100th time.

This is the only logical answer. I belive we (You, Haketh, and I) have been preaching this for 5000 threads.

There is no down side, orevents rampent CPing, and it is not complicated so the "guis lets keep it simple duhurr" arguement is moot.

Honestly I have seen zero reason why there should be variation lock outisde of people being being afraid of...uhhh...change..and uhhh not being able to CP?

Edit: If you are an online warrior with zero intention of playing offline just exit this thread...

Zoidberg747 · Feb 26, 2015

TopTierHarley said:
No stage picking, stages should be random every time.

You pick to switch the stage. It is still random.

Vandy · Feb 26, 2015

JDM said:
If the loser changes character, winner can switch variation. If the loser keeps the same character, winner cannot switch variation.

Unless an overwhelming community consensus is reached this is what I will go with.

Also to chime in on something that came up earlier - 'just leave it up to each individual TO to come up with the rules'. Speaking from experience TO's would much rather go with an established ruleset and then not have to think about it. Detailed game rules that apply to only one game are a very 'micro' level of management and a TO has several other 'macro' (large scale) things to think about. Big events these days have 15-20 games and it is unreasonable to expect a TO to have a well thought out ruleset for every single game. Trust me, TO's would much rather just copy and paste rules from somewhere than have to come up with them on their own.

9.95 · Feb 26, 2015

Vandy said:
Unless an overwhelming community consensus is reached this is what I will go with.

Also to chime in on something that came up earlier - 'just leave it up to each individual TO to come up with the rules'. Speaking from experience TO's would much rather go with an established ruleset and then not have to think about it. Detailed game rules that apply to only one game are a very 'micro' level of management and a TO has several other 'macro' (large scale) things to think about. Big events these days have 15-20 games and it is unreasonable to expect a TO to have a well thought out ruleset for every single game. Trust me, TO's would much rather just copy and paste rules from somewhere than have to come up with them on their own.

Make sure to touch base with @RapZiLLa54 because I was discussing it with him and he said he's gonna use character/variation lock for winners at his tournaments. The argument, of course, is that many variations could make characters completely different per variation.

Doombawkz · Feb 26, 2015

I just feel like Variation lock isn't necessary usually.
Its not like if you switch from variation A to variation B you suddenly 7-3 every option another character has that you didn't before unless thats just a bad MU in general for that character. Like a few tools change, but unless you are winning based on nothing but specials the core character should still play the same with maybe a different style or a different focus... But at the end of the day you're still using mostly the same strings (very very few differences between variations) and just different tools.

Like unless the game comes out and each of my variations 7-3s 1/3 of the cast each and there is no overlap, then there doesn't seem to be much point in stopping me from picking a variation if they are swapping characters.

CrimsonShadow · Feb 26, 2015

Getting to counterpick BOTH someone's character and their variation is just silly. You are picking both the biggest disadvantage for their character, and the biggest disadvantage for their character's current fighting style. That takes the term 'counterpick' to all new heights.

I think the consensus now among people who are considering the implications + the broader FGC landscape and history is this:

1) If the loser changes character, the winner is allowed to re-pick his variation

2) Otherwise, the winner keeps his current variation

3) If you don't blind-pick your variation, it's your loss. But there's no reason to complain about "variation counterpicking" on a character switch. If you are the loser, either pick your variation silently or accept the fact that the winner may choose to adjust (or vice versa).

The minutiae of who picks variation first and whatnot can be worked out in the meantime, and probably doesn't matter as much, but those are the important points.

THTB · Feb 26, 2015

karaokelove said:
I gotta say, this thread actually changed my mind about this subject. I came in with the firm opinion that variations should be locked, just to keep things simple and consistent with the way they've worked in the past. However, the variation system itself is unlike anything we've seen in the past in MK, so maybe it's time to revisit the rules on character locks.

I am now firmly on the side of unlocked variations. This should reduce the effects of counter-picking, allowing player skill to have a greater impact on matches, without completely negating the strategy of counter-picking. It will also make the difference between some variations being viable or not. If variations are locked, then a variation with even just 1 or 2 heavily unfavorable matchups will likely not see much tournament life. But if allowed to switch to a variation that can handle those matchups, we should be able to see a much wider showing of variations and characters in the tournament scene.

As far as the benefits of a total-lock system, I really can't see any, other than putting more of an emphasis on the power of the character-select screen. But is that a good thing? My opinion is a solid "no".

TLDR: I think unlocked variations are healthy for the tournament scene and general MK community.

But muhfuckas still don't wanna acknowledge this...and yet y'all get mad when games turn into "counterpick fests".

My vote is loser changes character, variation change is allowed, but is blind (winner picks variation after character choice but before variation choice). It's not complicated, and takes advantage of the system in play to prevent something NRS themselves have strived to prevent upon implementing the variation system.

MKF30 · Feb 26, 2015

I'm actually for the second option. But this is a very good question. I believe the winner should be character locked(like standard rules are) but I'm also for them in this case changing their variation if they want, however since they're the winner they MUST pick first then the loser counters with whomever character/variation.

TheTetraSpirit · Feb 26, 2015

You people really wanna let the winner have the chance to counterpick the loser, someone who already has all the odds stacked against him simply for losing the first match?
This person already has to now win 2 straight games, but because of this he now has to deal with a potential full-on counterpick if he wins the second match.

To allow the winner to change variations at all just further stacks the odds against the loser.
And don't give me this bull of "Oh, we don't know how these variations will differ," 'cause we do have a pretty good idea by now.
Just take a look at Sub. Cryomancer is not Grandmaster is not Unbreakable, at all. These versions are wildly different from each other and I guarantee they will have different MU charts.
Or take Scorpion. Ninjutsu certainly isn't Inferno and they're bound to make a difference against certain characters.

Obviously we can't have different rules based on different characters, so in the interest of fairness I say again: Full character/variation lock for winner, loser changes whatever, stages always random.

Eric The Scruffy · Feb 26, 2015

TopTierHarley said:
Many other games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart already have a system like this in place. I see no reason as to not follow suit. If loser decides to change variation then winner is locked in both character and variation. If loser changes character winner can change variation. I don't see why we have to be different when fighting games have already had a system in place that involve variations.

I'm sure @haketh could explain more, if he feels so for the 100th time.

Completely agree....what I've been saying for a while. I don't think we're obligated to adhere to other scenes methods by any means....but its always worth looking at other games solutions to similar problems because there's a good chance they do it that way for a reason.

From what I've heard from some players more involved in the games it sounds like the variation is not locked in those games because without it there would be no reason to ever use certain characters/variations at all since you're just going to be hard countered in the next round if you do. That kind of counterpicking musical chairs meta is pretty much my nightmare scenario for MKX and I'm worried that's exactly what's going to happen if we don't follow their example.

CrimsonShadow · Feb 26, 2015

TheTetraSpirit said:
You people really wanna let the winner have the chance to counterpick the loser, someone who already has all the odds stacked against him simply for losing the first match?
This person already has to now win 2 straight games, but because of this he now has to deal with a potential full-on counterpick if he wins the second match.

To allow the winner to change variations at all just further stacks the odds against the loser.
And don't give me this bull of "Oh, we don't know how these variations will differ," 'cause we do have a pretty good idea by now.
Just take a look at Sub. Cryomancer is not Grandmaster is not Unbreakable, at all. These versions are wildly different from each other and I guarantee they will have different MU charts.
Or take Scorpion. Ninjutsu certainly isn't Inferno and they're bound to make a difference against certain characters.

Obviously we can't have different rules based on different characters, so in the interest of fairness I say again: Full character/variation lock for winner, loser changes whatever, stages always random.

Lol, you changed your entire character + variation, but you're complaining about a variation change.. And how can you counter-pick someone who blind picks their variation?

Plus if you lost the first match, how successful do you think you're going to be if your opponent can still pick the perfect sauce to neutralize both your character *and* your variation as soon as you manage to win one game?

This particular argument is becoming tired, and never seems to make any more sense no matter how many times its stated.

Eric The Scruffy · Feb 26, 2015

TheTetraSpirit said:
You people really wanna let the winner have the chance to counterpick the loser, someone who already has all the odds stacked against him simply for losing the first match?
This person already has to now win 2 straight games, but because of this he now has to deal with a potential full-on counterpick if he wins the second match.

To allow the winner to change variations at all just further stacks the odds against the loser.
And don't give me this bull of "Oh, we don't know how these variations will differ," 'cause we do have a pretty good idea by now.
Just take a look at Sub. Cryomancer is not Grandmaster is not Unbreakable, at all. These versions are wildly different from each other and I guarantee they will have different MU charts.
Or take Scorpion. Ninjutsu certainly isn't Inferno and they're bound to make a difference against certain characters.

Obviously we can't have different rules based on different characters, so in the interest of fairness I say again: Full character/variation lock for winner, loser changes whatever, stages always random.

Counterpicking is still a viable option for the loser, because the winner is still character locked, *AND* they have to select their variation before the loser does. At the end of the day, the loser still has the final say in what the matchup they play is. The variation selection rule is not their to completely eliminate counterpicking, so much as it is there to limit *hard* counterpicking. Its there to try and make sure that counterpicking is more about exploiting a weakness in the player rather than the character they play.

SLy · Feb 26, 2015

"The loser should get the chance to counterpick" vs "The winner should have the option to null Counterpicks if presented with the opportunity"

This is what this thread looks like atm.

TheTetraSpirit · Feb 26, 2015

Eric Z19 said:
Counterpicking is still a viable option for the loser, because the winner is still character locked, *AND* they have to select their variation before the loser does. At the end of the day, the loser still has the final say in what the matchup they play is. The variation selection rule is not their to completely eliminate counterpicking, so much as it is there to limit *hard* counterpicking. Its there to try and make sure that counterpicking is more about exploiting a weakness in the player rather than the character they play.

And I still say that some variations may end up being a hard counterpick to other characters/variations and allowing that to the winner will be more harm than help.

Doombawkz · Feb 26, 2015

TheTetraSpirit said:
And I still say that some variations may end up being a hard counterpick to other characters/variations and allowing that to the winner will be more harm than help.

If I have a variation that nullifies your entire character choice, then you shouldn't be picking that character.
If I win, I have to pick my variation first. That eliminates your idea unless you purposely pick a character who loses hard to one particular variation.

If thats the case, thats you counterpicking yourself.

TopTierHarley · Feb 26, 2015

TheTetraSpirit said:
You people really wanna let the winner have the chance to counterpick the loser, someone who already has all the odds stacked against him simply for losing the first match?
This person already has to now win 2 straight games, but because of this he now has to deal with a potential full-on counterpick if he wins the second match.

To allow the winner to change variations at all just further stacks the odds against the loser.
And don't give me this bull of "Oh, we don't know how these variations will differ," 'cause we do have a pretty good idea by now.
Just take a look at Sub. Cryomancer is not Grandmaster is not Unbreakable, at all. These versions are wildly different from each other and I guarantee they will have different MU charts.
Or take Scorpion. Ninjutsu certainly isn't Inferno and they're bound to make a difference against certain characters.

Obviously we can't have different rules based on different characters, so in the interest of fairness I say again: Full character/variation lock for winner, loser changes whatever, stages always random.

This will do nothing but make variations useless. Why would I pick another variation after I was counterpicked when I can just counterpick with a different character all together? Change to the status quo might feel weird, but other games with "variations ", have been doing this for years.

It will also allow players to fully implement this new gameplay option into their repertoire.

Winner is character /variation locked if loser chooses to change variation only. If loser chooses a new character, winner can change variation, but must do so first before loser chooses theirs.

GGA Jeremiah · Feb 26, 2015

The one thing I am absolutely certain of is that if loser hits rematch, that is exactly what should happen. With no changes.

Johnny Based Cage · Feb 26, 2015

It should be the same as USF4, (A) because of precedent and (B) because anyone who thinks an SF Ultra is just one move compared to an MKX variation being a potentially entire new toolset is perhaps technically right but is also somewhat selling Ultras short. They can literally change the entire match. For example, if Zangief is protecting the skies you can't even think about jumping, whereas if he isn't, you better not stay grounded near him ever.

So variations are just going to be another degree of that. Some will probably make more of a difference, some may not. Either way, no need to rock the boat.

GGA Jeremiah · Feb 26, 2015

macro said:
Make a pole!

Ah to be young again

THTB · Feb 26, 2015

TheTetraSpirit said:
You people really wanna let the winner have the chance to counterpick the loser, someone who already has all the odds stacked against him simply for losing the first match?
This person already has to now win 2 straight games, but because of this he now has to deal with a potential full-on counterpick if he wins the second match.

First off, you're assuming the loser will PICK A CHARACTER THAT ALREADY LOSES TO A SPECIFIC VARIATION OF THE CHARACTER HE LOST TO. That is textbook worst case scenario.

The point of the variation system is to give players an opportunity to play one character and just swap between variations to best suit the matchup, thus reducing the counterpicking altogether. There will be complete counters from a character or a variation sometimes, but that chance dwindles with the variations.

It's meant to improve the counterpick situation, not make it even crazier.

ChaosTheory · Feb 26, 2015

Participation trophy generation. Gross.

It's funny reading people's use of the word "fair" when they advocate just the opposite. "Fair" is what happens for match 1. Then you throw that shit out of the window because somebody lost and we don't want to make things too hard for the guy. Pretty condescending.

Also talking about "fair" and saying the loser has all these odds stacked against him... Then don't lose. Those odds are stacked against you ONLY because you last the first match. The first match which was truly "fair." There were no outside, arbitrary forces at work. It was the same for both players. And now you want a leg up (by dedinition, unfair) so you can extend the series.

Why not think about from the opposite perspective? The winner earned himself a victory and the cushion of a one- (or two-) game lead. Now you present stipulations that potentially lessen his chance to win the next match (again, not "fair"). And now he's dealing with the pressure of a one-game-playoff. This wasn't determined in an all-things-equal situation like the match you lost (your odds stacked against yo, laughable).

Support it if you want, whatever your thing is. Drama, more viewers, more parody, whatever. But you can't support it in the name of "fair."

MrSunshine · Feb 26, 2015

Why does the winner have to have his character locked? Can someone explain please

Onilordasmodeus · Feb 26, 2015

MrSunshine said:
Why does the winner have to have his character locked? Can someone explain please

It's standard tournament rules. Winner is Character locked while looser can counter pick or whatever else.

Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

How should counterpicking be handled?

Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. picks variation

Winner can change variation if loser changes character, W. picks variation before L. pick char.

Winner is not variation locked if loser changes variation and/or character.

Winner is character/variation locked no matter what loser does.

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