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TYM's Hot Topic of the Week: Do we ban Scorpion from tournament play?

Should Scorpion be banned from tournaments?


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M2Dave

Zoning Master
I didn't play that piece of shit game MK. Obviously NRS learned a lot since MK9 which is why this is a good game(pre scorpion).
The game has superior mechanics, but the philosophy to balancing has not changed from MK, which is why Injustice was more balanced on April 16th than it is now.
 
The argument that Scorpion is fine and should be allowed because he hasn't won a major yet is pretty stupid imo.

I mean, he could never win a major due to some losing matchups. For example, if EVERYONE starts playing Aquaman and Wonder Woman then it's very possible that we'll never see a Scorpion win a tournament. But that wouldn't change the fact that Scorpion renders a lot of characters useless/unviable by his simple existence. That's the real problem a lot of people have with him I think. (+ the fact that he doesn't play by the rules and always has interactable advantage)

Injustice without Scorpion: Great balanced game with 15-20 viable characters. Injustice with Scorpion: MK9, only 3-5 viable characters.

And I'm sick and tired of people using games like Third Strike as an example to "prove" that it's ok for a game to be extremely unbalanced. 3S was a good game, but fact of the matter is it would've been even better and it would've had a much longer life if it wasn't just about Chun, Ken and Yun.
 

Vogue

Noob
The game has superior mechanics, but the philosophy to balancing has not changed from MK, which is why Injustice was more balanced on April 16th than it is now.

I'll agree that they are fucking up with the DLC. Batgirl was untested and scorpion ruined the whole damn game. Can't wait to see what happens with Zod.....
 
For everyone saying wait for tournies what are we even waiting for? He's clearly broken, he's clearly ruining the game, and he clearly will shorten the life cycle of this game. Ban him now before the game is ruined.
 

Vogue

Noob
Tournys are basically like Trials in the criminal justice system. Even though all signs might point to scorpion ruining the game they still need evidence ( tournament results) to make a case. Scorpion will either be patched or banned if the evidence points to him being broken. injustice is actually a good game, a bad tournament result won't kill the game. T6 was still played even after Bob killed it. Chun ran 3rd strike for 10 years , ect. Marvel still has the most participants despite Morrigan Doom.
 

astronout

see you at the top.
Again, I'm all for banning him, but who ultimately makes the decision? Normally, these types of decisions are made by following the EVO standard. But because EVO has already declared him legal, does this mean he will remain unbanned for the foreseeable future? Hopefully, he is nerfed alongside Zod's release; time will tell.
 

TrulyAmiracle

Loud and Klear~
You know what would make the community look even worse? Banning a character that has posted no meaningful results before the biggest tournament of the year.

Wait for results, then evaluate.
Do you really want to risk it in a biggest tournament in the world? Having the stupidity on the big stage is something that will do permanent damage.

CEO is probably the best testing grounds for this, hopefully its results will show how flawed Scorps is and we get to fix this for EVo before its too late.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
I dont say this often. I'm very objective in everything and honest to god I dont usually feel banning characters or demanding nerfs is ever an answer. It should almost always be a case of learn the matchup and learn to adjust your gameplay.

I also play Bane and he honest to God handles Scorpion. The big guy kind of hangs back and plays "Captain Turtle Mc'punish-fiend" anyway.

I vote YES to banning Scorpion.

My reasoning is fairly straight forward. The way blocking is set up in this game is directional. Now you can just hit down though and it counts as a block so you are fine against Scorpion's teleport in this regard. However, doing it on reaction isn't always easy. Also he can do it in the air...there is NO air blocking in this game.

Why I just dont feel Scorpion should be allowed in tourney is as follows.
  • Jumping can essentially NEVER be used unless it is as a punish and you read correctly. Jump at any time...even backwards and you cannot air block and Scorpion can do his port and punish you
  • Interactibles that were meant to help cover character weaknesses by NRS are essentially unusable outside of a combo. This means they no longer have any meaning regarding footsies in the game. Scorpion can flat out ignore the fact you are under a tv, or near the flower or anything else...if you go for it he will teleport into full combo.
  • You HAVE to play the game at his pace no matter what because its not the easiest thing to deal with his port on reaction. It can be done. Hell I do it, but unless you were riding that crouch block every other moment anyways you will likely not enjoy the match. What this creates is a scenario where you do not get to play your characters footsies in most cases. Only a few zoning tools can really be used in this matchup out of the entire roster, no jumping is safe and your only real approach is dash in or to use offensive tools that march you forward...essentially you are left with very little safe methods to control space versus Scorpion. Essentially the port is so good that most offensive tools folks use are off the table. It becomes an ENTIRELY reactionary matchup and this kills the excitement of matches and the enjoyment for players both casual and tourney.
  • Mixups from blockstrings are a pain. Block high, block low block...uh oh...blocked the wrong direction and at the port. Even on block with a normal combo he has the scariest mixup tool in the game. Its not a case of high low...its a case of when will he port. Essentially if he touches you once you have to use pushblock. You cannot risk the mixup from his block string. This throws out a lot of meter management some characters rely on in their gameplay.
I just dont feel that a character who removes so many elements of the gameplay from every matchup is something supportable. The game loses hype, it loses most character's depth and makes the match insanely predictable on approaches, and overall he is this dominant this early in his life and has barely been cracked into. When a character can win this easily and be considered a bad matchup for nearly the entire cast then its safe to say he is bad to support in the cast.
Honestly I dont know how to deal with this character issue unless the move itself was so ridiculously scoutable that it wouldn't matter and I dont like having useless tools on a character. I'd rather see his teleport replaced with a teleport that hit in the front than that or just a plain old teleport like Ares.

For now though Scorpion shut down the meta of the game. Its currently a completely reactionary meta revolving around this character being selected all over that one tool. For that reason alone I feel it is obviously something that I cannot support being allowed at tourney. Sorry folks. He's fun, but that move shuts down the meta and I cannot support him for that reason. He is pretty much the next Kabal in the making at this point and just remember this...NRS themselves said on the record when asked about how they balanced this game was to make certain KABAL was not in it. If we have another in the making who shuts down meta ...well...then that makes this game an ironically bad punchline to that Kabal moment.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Do you really want to risk it in a biggest tournament in the world? Having the stupidity on the big stage is something that will do permanent damage.

CEO is probably the best testing grounds for this, hopefully its results will show how flawed Scorps is and we get to fix this for EVo before its too late.
MK at EVO 2011.

Point nullified.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Im just saying, people think the interactables screw certain MUs. But banning them would screw way more MUs.
you can't say this

sorry

you haven't played complete MU's to safely say anything regarding whether or not characters need them.... or MU's would even change.

Please don't spread this POS info about.... because its bad.
 

Vogue

Noob
Again, I'm all for banning him, but who ultimately makes the decision? Normally, these types of decisions are made by following the EVO standard. But because EVO has already declared him legal, does this mean he will remain unbanned for the foreseeable future? Hopefully, he is nerfed alongside Zod's release; time will tell.

The players reach out to tournament organizers and get them to agree to the ban at tournaments , others will follow suit. That's how all of these things happen. TOs pay attention to this sort of thing since they need the community to come out and support the game.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
For everyone saying wait for tournies what are we even waiting for? He's clearly broken, he's clearly ruining the game, and he clearly will shorten the life cycle of this game. Ban him now before the game is ruined.
How will banning him not "ruin" the game?

The argument that Scorpion is fine and should be allowed because he hasn't won a major yet is pretty stupid imo.

I mean, he could never win a major due to some losing matchups. For example, if EVERYONE starts playing Aquaman and Wonder Woman then it's very possible that we'll never see a Scorpion win a tournament. But that wouldn't change the fact that Scorpion renders a lot of characters unviable by his simple existence. That's the real problem a lot of people have with him I think.

Injustice without Scorpion: Great balanced game with 15-20 viable characters. Injustice with Scorpion: MK9, only 3-5 viable characters.

And I'm sick and tired of people using games like Third Strike as an example to "prove" that it's ok for a game to be extremely imbalanced. 3S was a good game, but fact of the matter is it would've been even better and it would've had a much longer life if it wasn't just about Chun, Ken and Yun.
This is an equally flawed justification. TTT1 and VF4Evo were arguably the most balanced games of the noughties and didn't get half as much exposure as 3S.

Keep in mind also how thoroughly praised MK9 was for it's balance at Evo 2011, and it slowly turned to shit apparently once embarrassingly distributed nerfs and theory monging for tournaments were put into practice.

But don't mind me, Kabal is now super balanced, he's perfectly fine with the block infinite gone and nerfing low hat expanded MK9's lifespan tenfold.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
you can't say this

sorry

you haven't played complete MU's to safely say anything regarding whether or not characters need them.... or MU's would even change.

Please don't spread this POS info about.... because its bad.
I have played with the interactables off(or at least where no one used them)

And yes, it does change MUs.

And also, im the guy who is trying to spread HOW TO AVOID the interactables, but people like you are too hard-headed to believe they arent completely unsurmountable.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I have played with the interactables off(or at least where no one used them)

And yes, it does change MUs.

And also, im the guy who is trying to spread HOW TO AVOID the interactables, but people like you are too hard-headed to believe they arent completely unsurmountable.
blah blah blah

you haven't played significant time without them to know.... no one has. I'm not attacking just you.

It is ignorance to the problem i'm attacking. Regardless of what YOU'VE done.... there hasnt' been a tourney .... nor deep MU discussion or action with regards to "no interactables"
Of course it will sway MU's..... but that is no different than saying "just play it out"

No one can say for sure exactly what would happen.... and that is my point.

I'd rather ban the VARIABLE in the game than the constant.
 
How will banning him not "ruin" the game?



.

I mean unless you want to see 3 characters the entire game cycle, make the matches boring as possible and flow however scorpion pleases, and put a lot of people off who may want to get into the game and into the tournament scene then by all means don't ban him.

The game isn't even Injustice when you face him they may as well rename it "Scorpion: Scorpion Scorpion Scorpion
 

Nemesis_Prime

<3 Fighting Games!!!
The solution isn't banning Scorpion but to nerf him. Add more starting frames to tele so it's easier to punish, take away MB for it, etc. Anyways I highly doubt NRG will outright ban him since it's going to piss off majority of the customers who paid for the DLC, not to mention it'd make people wary about buying more DLC characters for fear same thing will happen again which will cut into NRG's bottom line. The truth is Scorpion was created to draw more players of MK9 to IGAU and banning him may have the opposite effect. In the end it's all about money and banning Scorpion, no matter how much it makes sense to tourney players, will lose money for NRG since nobody will pay for a DLC character they can't play in tourney. Even if you don't play in tourneys why would you want to play with a character that has such a negative rep associate with it?

But anyways I am not a tourney player so I guess my opinion don't matter to you guys. Just want to give my $0.02 on this matter since it's got the community all riled up.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
blah blah blah

you haven't played significant time without them to know.... no one has. I'm not attacking just you.

It is ignorance to the problem i'm attacking. Regardless of what YOU'VE done.... there hasnt' been a tourney .... nor deep MU discussion or action with regards to "no interactables"
Of course it will sway MU's..... but that is no different than saying "just play it out"

No one can say for sure exactly what would happen.... and that is my point.

I'd rather ban the VARIABLE in the game than the constant.
There is nothing varied about interactables. They are in the same place, have the same respawn time, Same range, etc.

People just refuse to learn

Also the reason no one is playing this way is because it is stupid when tournaments are going to have them, and you HAVE to learn them by playing with them, not turning them off.
 
This is an equally flawed justification. TTT1 and VF4Evo were arguably the most balanced games of the noughties and didn't get half as much exposure as 3S.
That could be because Tekken and Virtua Fighter are not very fun to watch for most people.

3S and Marvel were fun to watch and hype so it mattered less if the game was balanced or not. I highly doubt 3S would've had less exposure if it was more balanced. The gameplay would still be the same, it would still be fun to play/watch and it would still be hype. The only difference is how many characters are viable. And more diversity = more players and more interesting matches.

But anyway in Scorpion's case, despite what I said earlier I still think it's a little too soon to go for something drastic like banning the character right away. We should at least wait after CEO imho. But at the same time, if we don't do anything there's a good chance that Injustice will look extremely bad at EVO. Especially if a lot of top players get randomed out by average Scorpions doing J3s and tele which I have no doubt will happen and it will be sad to watch.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
I mean unless you want to see 3 characters the entire game cycle, make the matches boring as possible and flow however scorpion pleases, and put a lot of people off who may want to get into the game and into the tournament scene then by all means don't ban him.

The game isn't even Injustice when you face him they may as well rename it "Scorpion: Scorpion Scorpion Scorpion
Oh I offer my heartfelt condolences sir. Tell me more about how you were crusading against MK9 turning into a 3 man game and driving new players away because NRS didn't want to give the poster boy a supposedly universal, staple asset of the game. By all means, don't buff Scorpion.

The game wasn't even MK9 when you use him, they may aswell just name it "Scorpion loses Scorpion loses Scorpion loses Scorpion loses"
 

Vogue

Noob
A F0xy Grampa
i thought scorpion loses to a good bane/lex as well? I feel like any character who can keep him pressed on the inside could beat him
I use Lex against scorpion because Raven has no tools to deal with the character. No zoners in the game have tools to deal with scorpion. That's the problem, it's not that he has only 10-0 matches its that he ruins the interactable zoning aspects of the game while dumbing down every match to hold down and hope scorpion makes a mistake .
 

DGOD PSYCHO

#YOLOSWAGMUFFIN
I use Lex against scorpion because Raven has no tools to deal with the character. No zoners in the game have tools to deal with scorpion. That's the problem, it's not that he has only 10-0 matches its that he ruins the interactable zoning aspects of the game while dumbing down every match to hold down and hope scorpion makes a mistake .

Lex isn't a zoner though. He's ment to rush down. Once lex puts up armor and rushes scorpion down, he cannot do much.
 

SUPARNOVAX

Low tier? I was born in it, molded by it
I think some people are confused with perma bans and temp bans.

Scorpion totally should be banned until after EVO2k13.

He wasn't released that long ago and there's still a lot of time, like many people said, to develop the character and match ups.
 
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