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Opinions on which characters are not top 8 viable in the current meta-game?

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Lex is not viable imo. He is sort of solid, but solid does not cut it in this game. I knew as soon as I saw that he had a dash that he was going to have problems. Because his shit is slooooooow he needs to get knock downs to set it up against most characters. His 50/50 mixups are also really generic. It's really disappointing :(
I think most of the time Lex needs to have MB orbs up to really get moving. Because of that it seems like half the time all I see are corp charges trying to snake a hit in to buy him time for those. That or missiles just getting thrown out. Most times though folks trying to buy time with missiles just seem to end up in trade situations though instead of actually forcing folks to block :C

In any event though it seems everyone keeps popping up to say that Lex is too hard to get rolling to consider top 8. Not a bad character, but one you have to be careful with that doesn't do well taking risks. rev0lver maybe you should fill us in as to the key to setting up Lex's offense and the major and regular roadblocks he has to overcome to get there.

Also I dont agree with Ares being on here. Once scouted he might be easier, but that dude made top 8 and outside of tourney took down Brady's Aquaman. He can hold his own enough that I wont write him off.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
In any event though it seems everyone keeps popping up to say that Lex is too hard to get rolling to consider top 8. Not a bad character, but one you have to be careful with that doesn't do well taking risks. rev0lver maybe you should fill us in as to the key to setting up Lex's offense and the major and regular roadblocks he has to overcome to get there
I'd say it comes down to activating armor at every opportunity that you can. That's the main point of his offense. He has a mixup game up close that leads into a full combo into setup, it's just unfortunately slower than most. You don't have to take huge risks to set up your armor though, and it recovers pretty fast. Depending on the character you can do it in open space. CC gives it to you for free which you can use on reaction to anything whiffed and against jumps. His trait is such a big advantage and if you know how to use it properly I'd put it in the top 5.

The reason it doesn't boost him up THAT high is just because he has an issue with heavy zoners. And Superman's trait makes his completely useless. NRS DC fanboys had to make it so Superman's trait kills his villains.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Lex is not viable

Bane is not viable

Joker is not viable

Lobo is ...ehh maybe?

Hawk girl is a counter pick character
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Joker, Bane, Lex, Lobo, and Harley CLEARLY aren't as well equipped as the majority of the cast. Trash the politically correct answers, this should be obvious to everyone at this point. Doesn't take a year to realize those chars are not on the level of Frost, Superman, or Black Adam. A player would be much more effective with nearly anyone else in the cast than them. That's the real reason you don't see players of the highest level maining those chars, because the other ones have much better tools.

Also, OP I have no idea why you have Doomsday in there as if its debatable. DD has already placed in top 8's, is used by a few pro players, and is regarded high by the pros and on tier list.
 

Disaster FX

Boom Bap Dragon
I honestly only think Lobo, Bane and Lex are falling short of the viability to get top 8 and would do the following to make them better equipped in general.

Bane needs:
No venom weakness, make levels 123 buff damage by 10/20/30% instead of up to 45%
An overhead with the frame data of GL's F3
MB double punch as a combo extender

Lobo
B12 1+3 should leavethe opponent on the ground longer so her can safely do something on their wakeup.
B2 to be 18F start up
Trait to load quicker
Hook charge to gain 1 hit of armor on regular version and 2 hits on MB version
Give him an air shotgun shot that can delay his jump

Lex
Faster start up on all specials (except corps charge and gravity pull)
Less scaling from MB gravity pull combos
Better walk speed
 

JaredL

Aww shit <REDACTED DUE TO FEELINGS> its Shapzam
Shazam has issues IMO.

Has mix ups but no damage.
Trouble getting in.
 

Kiko

Face it, you're done.
Surprised no one has mentioned flash yet.


What have you heard of flash doing well anywhere? Lol
 
The more the game gets played out, the more it feels like Doomsday belongs on this list.

Doomsday started out as a pretty dominant looking character- Earthshaker that no one could block consistently, almost unanti-airable Falling Brimstone that put him in the driver's seat whenever he was near you, trait and teleporting Supernova that made him impossible to keep out.

He was so dominant, that NRS nerfed him on Day 1, lowering his trait duration to 5 seconds (down from 6) and increasing its cooldown to 15 seconds (up from 10).

However, there are two problems with this picture. 1. A lot of Doomsday's perceived strengths turned out to be gimmicks. Strong players eventually learnt to block ES consistently, punish supernova, and block/jab out traited Doomsday.

Don't take my word for it. This is what REO said on 4th May, even before Doomsday's Falling Brimstone got nerfed.

- DoomsDay
He will get worse as time goes on. Right now his dominance is mostly all gimmicks (even I still fall for them and am not used to shutting them down, yet) that are not truly effective against players who will have a ton of experience under their belt. I predict a year from now DoomsDay will become the Nightwolf of the game and move down to low-mid. He will be hot for the first few months, but he will steadily decline. I feel bad for all you DoomsDay players who aren't rioting for buffs to get them while you can. His splash is something he really needed. I don't care if it had a phantom hitbox on it, some other moves in the game have the same thing yet they're still in.
Nevertheless, Doomsday got nerfed (or "fixed") two more more times. On 7 May, during the Lobo Patch, his Falling Brimstone splash attack was given a smaller hitbox, and on 21 May, during the Batgirl Patch his Hunter string (1,1,2) was made to do .4% chip, down from 7.17% chip.

Now I don't think the nerfs, individually, were bad ideas. The (likely) reasoning behind each of these nerfs is pretty solid- having a trait that lasted 6 seconds and cooled down for 10 seconds meant that Doomsday was unlaunchable/couldn't be knockdown during 1/3 of the time in every match. Having a body splash that only a handful of characters could anti-air meant that Doomsday had some of the best no-risk pressure in the game.

However nerfing all these things together meant that Doomsday now has real difficulties getting in, and once he gets in he no longer dominates opponents close up. Doomsday is a rushdown character who doesn't have any fast moves that give him massive advantage on block or 50/50s that lead to big damage. The two things that he had- a trait that allowed him to stay in without worrying about wake up attacks once it was up, and a splash that forced the opponent to guess between neutral jump splash and jump forward splash, have both been taken away.

Moreover, those strengths that he had had served to cover several of his crippling flaws. Now that they're gone, the character is being exposed hard.

(1) Doomsday does poor damage relative to the entire cast.
I'm not just talking about the fact that his BnBs only do somewhere from 36-42% damage starting from a splash. The real problem that Doomsday faces is that he can't get good damage off combo starters that he can land from relatively low risk situations- he needs to land a splash or a 14 frame-mid (stand 2 or 3) or a 10 frame-high (stand 1). And now that the splash's hitbox has been nerfed, landing a splash is considerably high risk. Get anti-aired or whiff punished (landing recovery means that whiffed splashes can be punished) and he stands to lose more damage than he would have landed if the splash had hit. Compared to almost everyone else who gets their BnBs off quick standing mids with good range, the amount of damage that Doomsday deals really doesn't cut it.

(2) Doomsday is an okizeme character who doesn't deal well with the wake up system in this game.
This one is pretty self-explanatory. Suffice to say that when Doomsday had a trait that had a 6 second duration and 10 second cool down, he didn't really have to worry about an opponent's wake up attacks. Now that his trait lasts a lot shorters and takes a lot longer to cooldown, he can't rely on it as a way to deal with wake up attacks (unlike Bane with his Venom).

The end result is the Doomsday of today.

Perfect legend thinks he's crap:
Doomsday just sucks now good god
And even Pig ofThe Hut, a player who used to hate on Doomsday now agrees that he's pretty bad
i agree w you on doomsday
TLDR: The nerfs on Doomsday, in conjunction with his weaknesses from before, now add up to a pretty mediocre character.

Now I don't think that it will take a lot to make him a viable top 8 character, and a few tweaks would go a long way. But suggesting Doomsday buffs is a whole new topic and I've bored you guys long enough already.

colt
GGA Jeremiah
@AK Pig Of The Hut
REO
Perfect Legend
Metzos
HungryforPasta
Lt. Box
 

Sasarix

"Heaven Will Fall!"
I'm not to sure about who is not viable for top 8 spots but the future top 8 will look like this

1. Aquaman
2. Scorpion
3. Scorpion
4. GA (Chris G only)
5. Scorpion
6. Scorpion
7. Scorpion
8. Batgirl
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
TLDR: The nerfs on Doomsday, in conjunction with his weaknesses from before, now add up to a pretty mediocre character.

Now I don't think that it will take a lot to make him a viable top 8 character, and a few tweaks would go a long way. But suggesting Doomsday buffs is a whole new topic and I've bored you guys long enough already.

colt
GGA Jeremiah
@AK Pig Of The Hut
REO
Perfect Legend
Metzos
HungryforPasta
Lt. Box

They should've left the Body Splash alone.

The more time goes by, the more deconstructed Doomsday becomes.
And that containment suit makes him look like Bane with a garbage bag on his head.

He's still very capable of mauling opponents to death, but you've gotta work a lot harder for it than before.

...Unless you're in Watchtower. Then you just wait for robots.
 

ApertureBlack

The Only Player On The Wii U
Bane,Joker,Lex, and Lobo are the only characters that I can see being so flawed that that cannot make it.
 
Welcome to TYM, Spyridon and what a great first post.

And to answer your post from my genius level intelligence perspective:
I don't think that there are that many characters, who could never get into the top 8, mainly because some of the lesser used characters don't have a high level player backing them up.
Some people consider Lobo as not really viable, but look how far NY Fab made it with that character and he only lost in the losers finals of a big, big, big local tournament, because he was doing something very wrong during a match and Tom Brady schooled him afterwards (can't remember what his mistake in that match up was though).
Or Green Arrow who is supposed to be a mid tier character, yet Chris G makes him still look cheap, simply by showing great reads / decisions / fundamentals.

Bane, Lobo, Joker, Harley Quinn ... I have yet to see well known TOP 8 players picking these 4 characters up and do something with them. They decide not to, becase with these characters you have to work more, while with others you simply slide / F23 / divekick your way to victory.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Anyone who thinks that body splash should've kept the invisible hitbox is a freakin' idiot.

You have NO idea what the hitbox did. It was a nuisance when he jumped at you but it was BROKEN when he jumped at you from sweep distance. Have fun defending against an invisible crossup that is literally impossible to determine whether it'll happen or not.
 

LanceMonsoon

All in on Johnny Football
I wanna say add Flash to that list but Legend just recently got top 8 at WNF using some of him. But still I think Flash atm needs help. I don't think a "Flash only" user will get top 8 anywhere.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Welcome to TYM, Spyridon and what a great first post.

And to answer your post from my genius level intelligence perspective:
I don't think that there are that many characters, who could never get into the top 8, mainly because some of the lesser used characters don't have a high level player backing them up.
Some people consider Lobo as not really viable, but look how far NY Fab made it with that character and he only lost in the losers finals of a big, big, big local tournament, because he was doing something very wrong during a match and Tom Brady schooled him afterwards (can't remember what his mistake in that match up was though).
Or Green Arrow who is supposed to be a mid tier character, yet Chris G makes him still look cheap, simply by showing great reads / decisions / fundamentals.

Bane, Lobo, Joker, Harley Quinn ... I have yet to see well known TOP 8 players picking these 4 characters up and do something with them. They decide not to, becase with these characters you have to work more, while with others you simply slide / F23 / divekick your way to victory.
This is playing to win. Not "look at how good I am with a bottom tier". You may not like it but that's just how it is. And this is coming from someone who mained Subzero in MK9.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Bane needs:
No venom weakness, make levels 123 buff damage by 10/20/30% instead of up to 45%
An overhead with the frame data of GL's F3
MB double punch as a combo extender
Uh... no. No venom weakness would make levels 1 and 2 irrelevant. He goes up to 150%, not just 145%.
His double punch and f.2d are both 15 frame overheads, and both eventually get armor.
No need, we aren't a combo-heavy character as it is. If I needed to extend combos any further than b.23 b.23 123 ring toss, then I would do a MB cancel.



What Bane needs...
Faster normal attacks, Level 2 venom giving 2 hits of armor, and level 3 venom being parry immune. That's literally it. Give him that and he can hang with anyone since that's the only stuff holding him back.