Why it took NRS so long

[GLoRToR]

Reading through threads dedicated to the beta test of GGPO-like online announcement I have came across multiple posts arguing about how NRS was so slow about how to properly support their fighting games. Sometimes NRS is even blamed to be worse than other companies in some regards, because those did it earlier and better.

But I would like to look at the picture from other side and try to explain why in my opinion NRS should not be blamed about how slow they evolve regarding competitive play of their fighting games.

Mortal Kombat series never intended to be a competitive fighting game until Mortal Kombat 9. Which means you shouldn't compare NRS/WB experience with FGC with other companies who are in this business for much much longer. Even in one of Ed Boon's interviewes on MK Deception he said that they never intended it to be a tournament level game, it was made for majority, casual gamers, etc. With that being said, NRS only has like 5 years of FGC experience and each time they take it more and more seriously, where MKX is their highest point right now.

Every game of NRS is experiment that they use for polishing of their next projects. They started their path on the right track with Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe where they established their combo/juggles system, MKvsDCU already had a meter with two bars for combo breakers or Rage activation. Pro-Moves became EX and Meter Burn special moves in later games. Injustice interactables made their way into MKX in a much better, more balanced and suitable form, etc.

And I must say, that online actually became better from game to game as well. Of course it is not perfect and is worse if compared with other fighting games. But as I said earlier, the serious approach towards fighting game competitive and tournament wise takes its count from 2011 when MK9 was released. We had Player 1 advatage and in later games it was fixed, we've got deeper practice mode since Injustice, invulnerable frames on back dashes.

My point is that NetherRealm Studios is at the very young age as a part of FGC and after more than a decade making Mortal Kombat series for casual players only, they are doing more than a great job at attempting to become serious fighting game developers who strive towards great competitive games, yet remaining loyal towards casual auditory as well without making it too much complicated so that everyone can enjoy their games, not only tournament players.

Making new netkode provided with beta test is just one of those major steps they are doing in the right direction at their young age on competitive scene. Beta and arcade tests was never a part of Mortal Kombat series before and it's better late than never. Maybe in some near future we will be beta testing Mortal Kombat 11 not only online, but balance as well!

Kid should not be blamed for learning from grown ups the way that kid is capable of and NetherRealm Studios still has a road to go by.

Just thought I need to drop my 5 cents out here.

For first. They have 20+ years of industry experience and plenty of budget to hire proper networking engineers that could have told them how their current set-up would not work.

For second, the reason they didn't bother is that they have gotten away with it before. It's 2016 however, and were they going to continue the course they started out on, they'd have never sold kp2.

Nobody buys the "online doesn't matter" nonsense anymore. I hazard that over 80% of the actual playerbase of this game has not played it offline yet and most of them will not, either.

You're naive.
Please check your facts.

 

[GAV]

 

[trufenix]

Okay, it's gone from sad back to funny. Carry on.

 

[Rip Torn]

GGPO got its first stable release in early 2011. Street Fighter 3 third Strike was released literally 2 days after using it, Skullgirls was released in early 2012 with GGPO netcode, if you want an idea how much time it took other high profile names in the fighting scene to take advantage of their rollback netcode.

Exactly what it is that you are basing the assumption on that their development schedule would stop them from using GGPO, I do not know, but I think these facts alone prove that your baseless assumption is entirely wrong.
Yeah, FUCK those spoiled little man children for not being anything other than absolutely ecstatic and filled with gratitude that they had to wait 9 months for something they literally payed to have on release day.

I remember playing a hacked ROM version of X-Men COTA back in 2003-2004 that was running on what was essentially GGPO. It wasn't perfect, but it was way better than other online fighting games from what I remember. Well, the only other online fighting game I can think of at the time was DOA2 for Dreamcast. That game was essentially played in slow motion when you were online though. It wasn't really playable, imo.

So basically, GGPO has been around since fighting games have been online. I'm sure there have been alot of changes over the years, and it wasn't always available for companies to integrate into games, but the concept and early alpha versions running 90's arcade games have been around for probably 12+ years.

 

[buyacushun]

Besides, KI may be great at their netcode but MK is easily the better game and franchise. I don't see Capcom constantly talking with their fans or taking the time to even hop online to play with the fans? It's not like NRS has done that right? At least NRS unlike Capcom doesn't make the same game multiple times charging 40 bucks a pop, NRS and most developers just add DLC, free updates and alternate costumes within the game FREE. If you want to talk about just caring about money, then Capcom is FAR worse then NRS....not even comparable.

Bruh I don't get the Capcom hate here. There are better and much more reasonable things to hate Capcom about. Capcom listens to fan feedback. They've been doing it since SF4 and actually care so much as to release a beta for SFV this time around to get it right.

When did NRS hop online to play with fans? The Kombat Kast? Where they couldn't connect and instead played their silly "belt matches"?

What free update diid we get from NRS? Balances? The free classic costumes? No mention of the paid for costumes, that they don't even make for whole the cast?

Sf4 came out Feb 17th 2009 for $60. SSF4 (The only needed game disc update) came out April 27th 2010 for $40. Essentially making SSF4 a necessary kombat pack a year after SF4. SSF4 added 10 characters as well as balancing and I think a second ultra. AE released digitally on July 10 2011 for $15. A $40 disc version a little later on June 28th 2011 but I think it came with all DLC out at the time. AE added 4 characters and balancing. Then free update "Version 2012" in December. The last update, Ultra, released digitally on June 3 2014 for $15. A $40 disc released on August 5th also including all current DLC. Ultra added the 4 SF characters from SFxT and newcomer decapre.

So unless you've been foolishly buying every new disc then I don't get your complaint. As for me, I never bought a SF title until Super (might've been AE) was free for XBL. Then I paid 15 bucks for Ultra. Later got a PS4 and bought Ultra on sale for 15. So I waited, played the other fighters available then only spent 30 bucks on the SF4 series in total.

Don't forget the years of torture...

Y'all NRS players need counseling or something. Especially if you've been "tortured" to the point where you're extremely grateful that they announced they plan on trying to stop it sometime in the future.

 

[BanTheTesters]

WB only care about money and the kp2 is money and with sf5 on their heels they had no hope of making bank if they didn't address the netcode. Kindness didn't do this it was business.

Its a bummer because all I ever see on twitter is people saying "its to late they dont care" or they are "going to drop the game for SFV". Was the beta that good? I usually saw how ppl either didnt enjoy it short vids about the roll back...

Not me though....i'm glad they addressed the net code and i'm going to continue to support the MK community/MKX with content etc... because I enjoy it.

But its a bummer people still arent hype for the game anymore but with the NetCode news it seems to be changing so i say...

Let em hate...im HYPED

 

[GreatKungLao]

AE released digitally on July 10 2011 for $15. A $40 disc version a little later on June 28th 2011 but I think it came with all DLC out at the time.

No, it didn't have DLC. Capcom is that greedy they want buyers of any version to pay for alternative costumes, while NRS games have plenty of alts on released disc. Only on USF4 disc version there are DLC costumes that were released to that moment. It took them THAT long to finally include some alternative costumes on the disc.

 

[BanTheTesters]

I doubt SFV has any chance of winning major part of casual auditory from MKX..

Yea idk about that bud...I love NRS to death but SF pulls big consistent numbers during tourneys and streams...they also have some big supporters and pushes and very popular with the tourney scene. I can tell you how many times I've seen folks on twitter or some other area of discussion saying "i don't play MKX anymore" etc..

Its also a T rated franchise which again appeals to that casual crowd of ppl etc...there are a lot of factors that put SFV in threat mode for MKX..

And have you seen the wave of "disappointment" from people chewing NRS out about the guest cast?

LOL bro..it was mad harsh

 

[Carloz MK]

@IrishMantis
I also think its too late like darky said.
For non mk players who played the game at launch. They wont come back now because of ggpo.

I think only mk players like myself who left mkx because of bad netcode will give this game a second chance but the others are gone.
Sorry for my bad englisch i hope u understand what i mean

 

[buyacushun]

No, it didn't have DLC. Capcom is that greedy they want buyers of any version to pay for alternative costumes, while NRS games have plenty of alts on released disc. Only on USF4 disc version there are DLC costumes that were released to that moment. It took them THAT long to finally include some alternative costumes on the disc.

Meh costumes are costumes. If I enjoy it that much I'll buy a costume pack. No biggie. Capcom gotta make money somehow. If you've been playing before AE you probably have costumes. If not then maybe you don't want em. I'd take having to buy a costume for a character I like over NOT being able to buy a costume for a character I like.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Bruh I don't get the Capcom hate here. There are better and much more reasonable things to hate Capcom about. Capcom listens to fan feedback. They've been doing it since SF4 and actually care so much as to release a beta for SFV this time around to get it right.

Sf4 came out Feb 17th 2009 for $60. SSF4 (The only needed game disc update) came out April 27th 2010 for $40. Essentially making SSF4 a necessary kombat pack a year after SF4. SSF4 added 10 characters as well as balancing and I think a second ultra. AE released digitally on July 10 2011 for $15. A $40 disc version a little later on June 28th 2011 but I think it came with all DLC out at the time. AE added 4 characters and balancing. Then free update "Version 2012" in December. The last update, Ultra, released digitally on June 3 2014 for $15. A $40 disc released on August 5th also including all current DLC. Ultra added the 4 SF characters from SFxT and newcomer decapre.

Y'all NRS players need counseling or something.

Uh bro you also have to remember that capcom had stated that Super Street Fighter 4 was going to be the last version of that game...then proceeded to make 2 other versions...which is fine but still food for thought.

You also must take into account that the soul reason that capcom gave out the Free update to arcade editions was because it was down right unplayable at that point...there where maybe a handful of characters that were viable in that version and ppl literally stopped playing the game...and tournament interest had started to dip drastically..

So thats also something to keep in mind about that whole situation

And you also have to remember that with SF games you really need to buy the other versions to stay up to date depending on how invested you are with the series...with NRS games i can buy it knowing that ill get a free update and continued support of ONE version of the game...

While its not a bad thing at all that capcom is making games and selling other versions that ppl want, it is still a thing to keep in mind.

 

[GreatKungLao]

Capcom gotta make money somehow.

Didn't know I got Arcade Edition for free. And to be honest, alt costumes only as payed DLC looked stupid among the fighting games that had alternative costumes already on the disc, while games like Tekken or Soul Calibur even allowed you to customize existing characters (SC allowed even to create your own entire character) and all of this for the price of $60. Yeah, ripped alternative costumes for DLC packs was really fine, not to mention that the latest ones are of PC mods quality.

 

[buyacushun]

I'm done talking about Capcom after this post lol.

Uh bro you also have to remember that capcom had stated that Super Street Fighter 4 was going to be the last version of that game...then proceeded to make 2 other versions...which is fine but still food for thought.

Unexpected continued support should be a good thing.

You also must take into account that the soul reason that capcom gave out the Free update to arcade editions was because it was down right unplayable at that point...there where maybe a handful of characters that were viable in that version and ppl literally stopped playing the game...and tournament interest had started to dip drastically..

Idk much about that but if it happened like you said then that's also a good thing. If the community agrees Capcom made a mistake and Capcom fixes it then that seems pretty good to me.

And you also have to remember that with SF games you really need to buy the other versions to stay up to date depending on how invested you are with the series...with NRS games i can buy it knowing that ill get a free update and continued support of ONE version of the game...

After SSF4 you had to spend 15 bucks in 2011 then 15 again in 2014. I can see myself paying 40 bucks for a game I like to play. Playing for a year then paying 15 again to play for 3 more years then 15 one more time. All a matter of value. If you don't play enough to reason a 40 dollar purchase or even a 15 dollar purchase then maybe you're just not that into it.

As with NRS games you pay 60 bucks and hope you get support for longer than a year. We still don't have a clue how long MKx will be supported. If you find enough value in 60 dollars for 2 ish years then that's fine.

While its not a bad thing at all that capcom is making games and selling other versions that ppl want, it is still a thing to keep in mind.

Also remember Capcom was pretty much the first big fighting game out on last gen's consoles. They pretty much were the guinea pigs for everyone else. Even now Capcom is only doing free balancing and trying to design a system where you can play the game to get currency to buy characters. So if you enjoy the game enough to consistently play it you get all the essentials free.

Again, I have no problem is someone doesn't like Capcom. But I have a problem when people make reasons that don't really make sense. They only required one $40 purchase after SF4. They were the only fighting game dev actually doing extra costumes and such at the time. I'm not saying I liked their old way of doing things. But it's not like they cheated anyone or pulled some unholy company sacrifice. It's just what worked at the time. My favorite fighter is Tekken and I already know on release I'll have a nice sized roster, at least 3 costumes for EVERY CHARACTER and customization options for EVERYONE, online will work, and any characters get released will be free. I wish every fighting game dev did this. But they don't and that's fine. But there are much more viable reasons to dislike a developer/publisher other than buying some cosmetics or paying for an update after at least a year of playing. I still hate that ultimate came out like 6 months after vanilla marvel.

Didn't know I got Arcade Edition for free. And to be honest, alt costumes only as payed DLC looked stupid among the fighting games that had alternative costumes already on the disc, while games like Tekken or Soul Calibur even allowed you to customize existing characters (SC allowed even to create your own entire character) and all of this for the price of $60. Yeah, ripped alternative costumes for DLC packs was really fine, not to mention that the latest ones are of PC mods quality.

Just got done with a big reply. read above. You either find value in the stuff their making or you don't. If one seller gave me a free something with my purchase and one seller said I had to buy the similar thing separately then it's all a matter of value. Maybe I like Seller B's stuff more than Seller A. Beauty of modern day consumerism.

 

[GreatKungLao]

Unexpected continued support should be a good thing.

Yet we can see people have an audacity to complain about NRS making improvements "just now". It's not like they had to, to be honest, after MKX made it Top 10 best selling games of 2015 and gave enough money for WB to bath in it. Did anyone here actually expected a netkode rebuild and beta from NRS/WB?

I just want to remind that NRS actually tried to fix online in MK9 and Injustice, they just didn't used such drastic measures as to rebuild an entire netkode. Why they didn't made it there? Who knows. Maybe lack of experience with techonology. There might be thousands excuses and none of them might not be true.

I guess my actual point with this thread was to try and understand that NRS might not do things like others, but it still does good things. And when something bad happens, Ed Boon should not be the person to blame for litreally everything, AAA video games are created by hundreds of people. And after all, publisher always has a final vote on their projects.

Caomplaining will not fix the past, will not make NRS re-do netkode for MK9 and Injustice, but gratitude might inspire to do even greater things with their fighting games in future, like pre-release beta test of MK11 to try and adjust the netkode and maybe even to adjust balance issues before actual release, which woule be super cool.

 

[trufenix]

holy shit, what are you two even arguing?

 

[d3v]

Tearing the game open to implement new netcode isn't an easy task. Realistically, the reason that this probably took so long to announce is because they were spending all this time working on it.

 

[xWildx]

The ignorance is strong in this thread...

 

[WiseM0nkey]

well, it doesnt matter to me honestly.

we're getting an improved netcode, im happy with it, end of the story.

 

[esc1]

NRS outsourced MKX to hell and back.. Read the credits some time. I wouldn't be surprised if they outsourced the new netcode implementation.

 

[buyacushun]

holy shit, what are you two even arguing?

I think I'm doing the Capcom version of what the "NRS apologists" are doing. And while it's cool to voice complaints, I spoke against voicing complaints for odd reasons. Like saying you had to constantly pay $40 to play SF when that only happened one time. I think @GreatKungLao just wants people to take it easy on NRS. That part I'm not too sure.

 

[IrishMantis]

@IrishMantis
I also think its too late like darky said.
For non mk players who played the game at launch. They wont come back now because of ggpo.

I think only mk players like myself who left mkx because of bad netcode will give this game a second chance but the others are gone.
Sorry for my bad englisch i hope u understand what i mean

Yeah I know that but I don't think thats all NRS's plan is to get people back (and btw I don't know if bullshitting or not but A LOT of people from other forum sites saids they gonna play again or now actually buy it) and don't forget there is still s complete edition to come so a brand new netcode will most definitely help decisions, but back to my point, it doesn't matter if the Netcode is shitty the DLC is gonna sell like Hotcakes just like KP1 did after people knew how shit the Netcode was.
Of course the SFV beta inspired the idea but I'm sure they did not do this of fear, the game is doing exceedenly well in tourneys better than MK9 or IGAU at this point of its life averagely so the game is no where near dead.

I'm assuming other than the fan service they are actually using this Beta as a Beta for the infrastructure of their following games.

So again I ask too late for what?

To make sales?
It's high up in top 10 best seller 2015 they made their money.

To save the competitive scene?
Is as said doing fantastic in numbers, and even with the terrible Netcode they are doing really good with online tourneys such as ESL

Too late in the games life?
We are not even a year through and we already have another complete pack with patches and updates, Hell MK9 and Injustice where finished in the first 6 months and NRS are showing us that they are fully supporting this game as you can see with constant Pot bonuses( even though only U.S) so I'm sure this game has atleast another year or 2 left in it so we ain't even half way through the the games life at worst and people are saying "too late"

You even said your self you coming back because of this.

So what are they too late for? They made their money and have a strong following .

So let me turn the question, what do you suggest they should do instead?
Leave it and don't bother?
As a long time fan and I'm sure I speak fir a lot of people as saying this news was really like a gift so I feel rewarded and I deserve this like everybody else who supported this game or you can say it's too late now if you want but you need to realise if this works out this is a huge step in the right direction for their future and games as it will raise confidence when the next game as people will trust the Netcode is good because of MKX
Try think about the long term rather than the short term.

I understand, the Netcode left s bad taste in you and a lot of other people's mouth which is totally fair, nothing wrong with how your feeling, but they are doing the impossible and completely rebuilding a network infrastructure of a game already released they did not need to do this.

So it's fair to believe it's too late because it wasn't their on release but in terms of longevity and sales it doesn't mean it's true.
Look I'm not trying to be an apologist and I may look like a push over but I feel this is a right step and it can't do any worst for the community than there standard. So for me , the people who still play and the people who want to come back this perfect for us! doesn't matter how small that number as you think may be.
It may be too for some people but it's not too late for the people who are excited about this.
I'm still fucking hyped

Just one more thing I hope this post does not come across as condescending as that was not my goal, I was just trying to cover every point I could think of.
As i said you have a right to feel how you feel and once your logical and respectful about your opinions no body should be disrespecful back. Which you are respectful
I'm just trying to share my opinion on this and not intend to belittle any of you guys.
Hopefully you will see a bit of light from this but if not that's totally fine.

 

[Tertian]

i will give NRS some credit, if they're announcing ggpo now (with beta sign up soon), it's very likely they've been working on it for awhile now, so they heard the online complaints loud and clear. I kinda understand that they didn't want to say anything before knowing if it was possible or not.

 

[trufenix]

I think I'm doing the Capcom version of what the "NRS apologists" are doing. And while it's cool to voice complaints, I spoke against voicing complaints for odd reasons. Like saying you had to constantly pay $40 to play SF when that only happened one time. I think @GreatKungLao just wants people to take it easy on NRS. That part I'm not too sure.

oh, well, I mean, I know everybody's on Capcom's balls now for finally kind of doing the right thing, but they are still the worst. NRS' villainy doesn't even come close.

But hey, have at it.

 

[spitefulsnake]

lol at people saying nrs didn't do this out of fear of stiff competion looming in the horizon. sure they're selling great now but it's still early in the consoles life and most of the other fighting games besides KI on xbone are just ports of old games lets see what happens when sf5 and tekken7 and both available with ggpo and robust tourny presence before we claim nrs didn't have to fix anything and still dominate. Competion is what drives innovation and change. People will move on to other games if nrs didn't do this. Im happy as a pig in shit their finally getting their act together but you're blind if you think they had nothing to worry about.

 

[MKF30]

@ Sinosleep: I'm sorry but that's bs, nobody is entitled to shit! yes, we're the consumers but nobody is forcing you to BUY their shit, the rules are the developers whether we like it or not meaning, you either choose to buy a game or not. You don't get to be like "I'm buying your game so that means you have to lick my boots and give me whatever the fuck I want" no, no, no it doesn't work that way. Hell If I was the developer someone said that shit on my twitter I'd be like, excuse me says who? I'm not forcing you to buy my product.

Some "fans" are just spoiled, entitled brats who need to get off their high horse since I know for a fact they can't do a better job otherwise they'd be working on games instead of bitching on a forum board.

Bruh I don't get the Capcom hate here. There are better and much more reasonable things to hate Capcom about. Capcom listens to fan feedback. They've been doing it since SF4 and actually care so much as to release a beta for SFV this time around to get it right.

When did NRS hop online to play with fans? The Kombat Kast? Where they couldn't connect and instead played their silly "belt matches"?

What free update diid we get from NRS? Balances? The free classic costumes? No mention of the paid for costumes, that they don't even make for whole the cast?

Sf4 came out Feb 17th 2009 for $60. SSF4 (The only needed game disc update) came out April 27th 2010 for $40. Essentially making SSF4 a necessary kombat pack a year after SF4. SSF4 added 10 characters as well as balancing and I think a second ultra. AE released digitally on July 10 2011 for $15. A $40 disc version a little later on June 28th 2011 but I think it came with all DLC out at the time. AE added 4 characters and balancing. Then free update "Version 2012" in December. The last update, Ultra, released digitally on June 3 2014 for $15. A $40 disc released on August 5th also including all current DLC. Ultra added the 4 SF characters from SFxT and newcomer decapre.

So unless you've been foolishly buying every new disc then I don't get your complaint. As for me, I never bought a SF title until Super (might've been AE) was free for XBL. Then I paid 15 bucks for Ultra. Later got a PS4 and bought Ultra on sale for 15. So I waited, played the other fighters available then only spent 30 bucks on the SF4 series in total.

Other SF fans I know who love the franchise have told me if you don't wait they've spent 200 bucks between DLC, upgrades and latest editions of the game. Thing is as far as that is concerned between NRS vs. Capcom, it's obvious Capcom rips people off FAR worse. Let's see forcing people to upgrade with 40 buck game, forcing people to pay for "real ending" via Asura? Forcing people to pay for locked on disc content? My point is nobody is perfect, not NRS, not Capcom. Nobody. I mean it's not like Capcom has a rep for it...Keep in mind my beef isn't just so much with Capcom and SF 100 versions but in general, I was going to get Asura but once my friends told me not to because of everything it regarding that incident(watch AngryJoe's video) that just turned me off...

What puzzles me are the people who are ok with dishing out that money for Capcom games or ok with getting ripped off but the game "plays smoothly" online so people don't care? Well call me crazy but I'm not one of those people, I'll gladly take better bargains with DLC, having to buy only one version of the game with average online play any day over that.

Yes, the SFV beta is nice but the same about NRS now working on the netcode, so I don't see why people still feed the need to bitch. If anything Id' say the Capcom fans need counseling in that regard, willing to pay more, get ripped off but forget all of that because of GGPO? lol

Though for MKC I don't get how one day they praise NRS, the next bash them...those people aren't true fans, they're posers. There's a fine line between constructive critique and flat out bashing. This goes for any fanbase who does this.



The fact remains Capcom has charged people more unnecessary money for content that could have been free or merely DLC, This is not even debatable it's a fact. The only thing NRS since their games that has been an issue is the net play, that's it. As far as other "versions" they made a complete version with EVERYTHING on it a year after release, and that's that. They don't force you to pay for on disc content or 40 bucks per game because prior games won't allow it, example you buy SF4 and you want SSF4 Ultra, Super Duper Blowjob see Cammy half naked Edition: you have to buy that game, you can't just upgrade from the original version unlike NRS games where you can just umm buy DLC and download free updates? Capcom the way they've run things would have been like ok MK X normal version, then MK X Predator pack version, then MK X Alien pack version, so on and so forth.

I mean, let's be honest here. Capcom isn't perfect anymore then NRS is, they're for sale, nobody wants them(that should say something) and they have screwed over their fans in the past with their marketing and shady business tactics. NRS has never done that, so I have to give them that and will give them that much.

They're fixing the netcode, or will so I don't see why people are bitching over it still.... I knew the day NRS announced "hey we plan on fixing the netcode for real" people would still complain or find something else to complain about. It's just the way part of the MKC is and that's kind of sad really considering how much good things we have got from NRS.