Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Swindle]

Well, I'm glad my local scene has left the Variations open to start. Going to make competing in some of these majors a bit of a drag, though.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Indeed (lol Pig).
And to address Zoidberg's post: "The reason interactables are still on for injustice is because the majority wanted them to stay(go look back at the threads discussing this, it was very clear what the majority wanted). If Variation lock truly destroys the meta and makes the game a counterpickfest then we can change the rules, same thing with variation unlock."
Right, like how the Injustice community immediately banned interactables when they were shown to significantly affect the advantage of certain characters?

The reason they werent banned is because that would also ban background bounces, something that a lot of lower tier characters used to up there damage. There was a reason, just because you don't remember it/don't agree with it doesnt mean there wasn't.

 

[Desperdicio]

Variation change adds a whole new dynamic to the game. Competitive play can choose to embrace it or not. If they do not embrace it than the variation system will wither away and die. It is certainly a neat mechanic but if it does not affect the way that the game is played competitively then I know I would prefer if they just added more unique characters instead.

It would affect the game in case winner remains variation locked, as well. The loser would be able to pick a different variation more suitable for the matchup, without being unloyal to his character.

 

[trufenix]

A new character poses a completely new moveset, as in there is nothing at all similar between Kano A and the winner switching to Raiden B. While a variation changes things characters still hold many universal strings and specials whereas Kano shares nothing with Raiden. Fighting Raiden A, B, or C you can always say "he has Superman dive and lightning projectile and these strings, I have to be wary of them". Switching to Kano you lose that. That's why a character switch shouldn't be allowed.

We've already done this dance. My feet are tired. No one pro unlock is going to accept variations are as different as characters until we have the mu numbers, and knowing this community that'll be october. So fine; Raiden A/B/C are all beautiful unique snowflakes. No other character or variation is going to play anything like them or have similar matchups at all. Switching from rush down Raiden to zoning Raiden? Harmless. Switching to rushdown Raiden to zoning Quan Chi? MADNESS.

I don't personally believe the winner should be allowed to affect the mu at all. The end. I don't care if its nudging a 5-5 to 6-4 or swinging a 9-1 all the way to 1-9. Counter picking is a loser "privlege", not an arbitrary intermission in play during which winner and loser try and guess what the other is going to do next. That's what the fight is for.

And people throw around ultras and assists like 80% of the characters in those games have more than one useful option. Like the vast majority of them are used for anything other than style points and combo videos. No ultra has ever fixed or even significantly changed a 7-3 or 8-2. No assist is going to turn Iron Fist into a good character or Doom into a bad one. If it could people would actually do it. It wouldn't be a novelty rule nobody uses and nobody can remember. You'd see it come up in every. single. matchup. like stage select does in Injustice.

The only hard proof of a system like this is a bunch of anime games that have never seen an offline tournament with more than 30 warm bodies at their once a year event. I'm sure there's a die hard Time Killers community out there who has some pretty pie in the sky ideas, doesn't mean they should be included in a discussion about an EVO caliber fighter. Not before anybody actually a controller in their hands.

Regardless, bottom line is MKX is out in a month. This debate has done nothing but stir a 25 year old pot and now all the TOs have decided different rules, making us (once again) the community that can't get its shit together before our games even come out. Thanks a fucking lot Arcana Heart.

 

[Doombawkz]

The winner should not be able to counter-pick the loser. That is the stupidest thing I have heard of.

This is the weakest argument I've ever seen. THIS is why I can't accept the other side.

1) You CANNOT COUNTERPICK THE LOSER. The loser is fully capable of counterpicking themselves, but thats all. If you have the brains to realize your character is countered by a variation, you should have the brains not to pick it.

2) If your issue (not you specifically but the entire other side of the argument) comes from a situation that does not naturally occur within the tournament scene or flow, its not an actual issue. Its an outlier, and those are rare if ever occurring, and exist no matter what your selection is. Some of them are reasonable, most are not.

3) If your issue is the idea of simplicity, I can assure you this is as simple as the alternative.

4) If your issue is "there is no other game that does it like that" not only are you wrong, but those games do not enforce full lock upon character switch. Not even SF, the standard of all standards, enforces full lock since character swaps allow the winner to switch variation last I recall.

5) If your biggest concern is the characters should be counted as individuals, then turn on barebones mode and play raw footsies so no one even has to worry about it. Sounds illogical, right? It is, but it would make things just as fair as any other option.

Keeping these 5 things in mind, someone present to me a valid argument as to why variation lock should exist. I beg of you, because out of 17 pages I haven't seen so much as a glimpse of a half-decent argument aside from "I want it that way" and "But these 2 moves make it completely different character."

Unless you are going from Boss Toss F/T to Lackey Variation, your character isn't going to change so much that someone could justify giving it a new slot. The difference is literally SF2 Ken vs Ryu for most characters, minor changes at best.

 

[Alright RyRy]

I think this topic is worse than trying to change someones mind on politics or religion.

People who are making the game agree with the majority of the community or are saying to wait for the game to come out and be tested.

Just accept whatever the ruling is don't complain about it, that's all I ask for.

Nothing what anybody or anyone states in this thread is going to change your mind.

Therefore this thread has no reason to remain active or open.

 

[haketh]

The only hard proof of a system like this is a bunch of anime games that have never seen an offline tournament with more than 30 warm bodies at their once a year event.

Melty was at EVO & both games were really populuar with a consistent & strong scene in America for their time & while they've dropped out a bit they get more consistent numbers than NRS games after their time has passed. Note I'm only counting America & not how strong the scenes still are in Japan. Please stay ignorant.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

This is the weakest argument I've ever seen. THIS is why I can't accept the other side.

1) You CANNOT COUNTERPICK THE LOSER. The loser is fully capable of counterpicking themselves, but thats all. If you have the brains to realize your character is countered by a variation, you should have the brains not to pick it.

2) If your issue (not you specifically but the entire other side of the argument) comes from a situation that does not naturally occur within the tournament scene or flow, its not an actual issue. Its an outlier, and those are rare if ever occurring, and exist no matter what your selection is. Some of them are reasonable, most are not.

3) If your issue is the idea of simplicity, I can assure you this is as simple as the alternative.

4) If your issue is "there is no other game that does it like that" not only are you wrong, but those games do not enforce full lock upon character switch. Not even SF, the standard of all standards, enforces full lock since character swaps allow the winner to switch variation last I recall.

5) If your biggest concern is the characters should be counted as individuals, then turn on barebones mode and play raw footsies so no one even has to worry about it. Sounds illogical, right? It is, but it would make things just as fair as any other option.

Keeping these 5 things in mind, someone present to me a valid argument as to why variation lock should exist. I beg of you, because out of 17 pages I haven't seen so much as a glimpse of a half-decent argument aside from "I want it that way" and "But these 2 moves make it completely different character."

Unless you are going from Boss Toss F/T to Lackey Variation, your character isn't going to change so much that someone could justify giving it a new slot. The difference is literally SF2 Ken vs Ryu for most characters, minor changes at best.

A tournament veteran who has more experience with this game than anyone in this thread has said he thinks it should be variation lock. That is THE best argument. Only someone who has extensive experience playing this game and has tournament experience can make a valid evaluation on this matter, despite what everyone else believes.

 

[Zoidberg747]

A tournament veteran who has more experience with this game than anyone in this thread has said he thinks it should be variation lock. That is THE best argument. Only someone who has extensive experience playing this game and has tournament experience can make a valid evaluation on this matter, despite what everyone else believes.

Not to mention the developer of the game said basically the same thing.

 

[Doombawkz]

1) No one pro unlock is going to accept variations are as different as characters until we have the mu numbers, and knowing this community that'll be october.



2) So fine; Raiden A/B/C are all beautiful unique snowflakes. No other character or variation is going to play anything like them or have similar matchups at all.

3) I don't personally believe the winner should be allowed to affect the mu at all. The end. I don't care if its nudging a 5-5 to 6-4 or swinging a 9-1 all the way to 1-9.

4) And people throw around ultras and assists like 80% of the characters in those games have more than one useful option. Like the vast majority of them are used for anything other than style points and combo videos. No ultra has ever fixed or even significantly changed a 7-3 or 8-2.

5) The only hard proof of a system like this is a bunch of anime games that have never seen an offline tournament with more than 30 warm bodies at their once a year event. I'm sure there's a die hard Time Killers community out there who has some pretty pie in the sky ideas, doesn't mean they should be included in a discussion about an EVO caliber fighter. Not before anybody actually a controller in their hands.

6) Regardless, bottom line is MKX is out in a month. This debate has done nothing but stir a 25 year old pot and now all the TOs have decided different rules, making us (once again) the community that can't get its shit together before our games even come out. Thanks a fucking lot Arcana Heart.

1) You mean May (just don't grade for accuracy)

2) No one except the other Raiden variations barring maybe TP raiden vs rushdown raiden when it comes to zoning, but thats about it, and it probably won't be that bad. So yeah, from one to the other? Not too terrible, you're right in saying that.

3) That doesn't happen, but I won't keep your unrealistic ideals hostage.

4) Know why those MUs are so bad for them? Because the change of a few special moves doesn't suddenly prevent the character from being the same at the core. You're right, so why are we saying that it will in MKX?

5) Injustice only had 25 warm bodies last time around, also last I recall KoF and Persona were shoe-ins at EVO while MK9 stuggled to get another year and Injustice was a laughing stock one year, and a sonic fox the next.

6) I don't care for arcana heart either. Still, we are treating this game like something its not, and ignoring the closest thing we have.

You don't have to respond but yours is the closest I see to a constructive counter.

A tournament veteran who has more experience with this game than anyone in this thread has said he thinks it should be variation lock. That is THE best argument. Only someone who has extensive experience playing this game and has tournament experience can make a valid evaluation on this matter, despite what everyone else believes.

I remember a bunch of tournament veterans gave their opinion on Scorpion too.
I remember they said Bane needed more buffs.
I remember they said AM's trident rush wasn't that good.
I remember they said Joker was secret top tier.
I remember they said Killer Frost 7-3'd the entire cast.
I remember they said Batgirl was lower mid, then mid, then high.

I remember "top players" giving a lot of opinions, but then, we haven't had fully fledged tournaments with these formats in tow so despite their experience its not just them playing, its all of us. No one person is going to be completely right.

Not to mention the developer of the game said basically the same thing.

Creators of the game made variations and specifically noted the opposite to be true as well. Can't take everything at face value.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

1) You mean May (just don't grade for accuracy)

2) No one except the other Raiden variations barring maybe TP raiden vs rushdown raiden when it comes to zoning, but thats about it, and it probably won't be that bad. So yeah, from one to the other? Not too terrible, you're right in saying that.

3) That doesn't happen, but I won't keep your unrealistic ideals hostage.

4) Know why those MUs are so bad for them? Because the change of a few special moves doesn't suddenly prevent the character from being the same at the core. You're right, so why are we saying that it will in MKX?

5) Injustice only had 25 warm bodies last time around, also last I recall KoF and Persona were shoe-ins at EVO while MK9 stuggled to get another year and Injustice was a laughing stock one year, and a sonic fox the next.

6) I don't care for arcana heart either. Still, we are treating this game like something its not, and ignoring the closest thing we have.

You don't have to respond but yours is the closest I see to a constructive counter.



I remember a bunch of tournament veterans gave their opinion on Scorpion too.
I remember they said Bane needed more buffs.
I remember they said AM's trident rush wasn't that good.
I remember they said Joker was secret top tier.
I remember they said Killer Frost 7-3'd the entire cast.
I remember they said Batgirl was lower mid, then mid, then high.

I remember "top players" giving a lot of opinions, but then, we haven't had fully fledged tournaments with these formats in tow so despite their experience its not just them playing, its all of us. No one person is going to be completely right.


Creators of the game made variations and specifically noted the opposite to be true as well. Can't take everything at face value.

I am in no way saying that any top player is completely right on every topic, but as of right now, I think listening to the people with the most experience (by a long shot) is the best place to start and we can see where we go from there.

 

[NYCj360]

Reptile

Reptiles variations actually make a huge difference, his core move kit is still in tact, but he gains advantages in certain match ups depending on the variation, so yeah even him.

 

[Doombawkz]

Remember back when EVO was commentated and it was "f.23, and f.23, and f.23 breath, and then f.23 again" and everyone got really angry because they weren't commentating but they couldn't because of how lopsided things were?

Now imagine commentating an even match, then two 7-3 matches, one on each side.

Now imagine commentating three even matches, with interesting insight on the decisions made by each player either by them staying the character and denying their opponent the use of another variation, or the change and mind games between the champion and challenger on variations and selection.

Which, as a community, sounds better to you?
Which, as a viewer, would you prefer to see?
As a commentator, which would you rather speak on?
As a player, would you rather the game be decided on the first match? The second? The third?

@RM Indecisive , you commentate and have received flak for lacking content in the Lex vs Zod MU.
Which would you rather have? A close match? Mere steps upon an endless stage, never to be crossed?

@STORMS , you provide content to people through your streams. Which would you rather your viewers see? Close, to the wire matches? A bunch of landslides off of character choice alone?

@GGA 16 Bit , would you rather have a choice in playing Catwoman against Bane? Would you rather be punished for character loyalty, or simply be beaten because Bane exists?

I ask you, not as people deciding the rules like gods among us, but as individual players. Do you truly, in your hearts, want to see a game be as epic and close as possible? Do you not wish for every matchup to be a marquee matchup? Imagine yourself, not as a player, not as yourself, but as those who might play, those untapped individuals whom have yet to wet their feet... That blood, that primordial ooze from which we all have sprung. Do you not wish for them the best we can deliver? Do you not wish for them to see victory snatched from sure defeat, their role models calculating their moves before the match even begins?

Its not too hard. I know we can do it as a community. We are good enough, we cannot put ourselves down.

We can be better, we can rely on ourselves, on our character, and not our numbers.

We can be crafty and sneaky, surprising and yet so controlled. We can be the best.

We cannot be afraid forever, content to stay in our ways in fear that we might not handle the mantle given to us.

We mustn't fear opportunity, we must embrace it. We must take these tools and use them to craft a better world, not just for us, but for those who would be like us. For those who would take after us. For those who would look upon us, years from now, when our names are but whispers in the wind, and say "If not for them, those brave players, those masters of their own destinies, those who would look in the face of adversity and not flee but face it knowing they could succeed... If not for them, where would we be?"

"History is written by the victors", once said by Winston Churchill himself... Let us not accept defeat, let us write a history together, you and I. Let us paint ourselves visionaries, pioneers, and let us look before we leap, if only to see the boundless potential before us.

 

[Desperdicio]

Remember back when EVO was commentated and it was "f.23, and f.23, and f.23 breath, and then f.23 again" and everyone got really angry because they weren't commentating but they couldn't because of how lopsided things were?

Now imagine commentating an even match, then two 7-3 matches, one on each side.

Now imagine commentating three even matches, with interesting insight on the decisions made by each player either by them staying the character and denying their opponent the use of another variation, or the change and mind games between the champion and challenger on variations and selection.

Which, as a community, sounds better to you?
Which, as a viewer, would you prefer to see?
As a commentator, which would you rather speak on?
As a player, would you rather the game be decided on the first match? The second? The third?

@RM Indecisive , you commentate and have received flak for lacking content in the Lex vs Zod MU.
Which would you rather have? A close match? Mere steps upon an endless stage, never to be crossed?

@STORMS , you provide content to people through your streams. Which would you rather your viewers see? Close, to the wire matches? A bunch of landslides off of character choice alone?

@GGA 16 Bit , would you rather have a choice in playing Catwoman against Bane? Would you rather be punished for character loyalty, or simply be beaten because Bane exists?

I ask you, not as people deciding the rules like gods among us, but as individual players. Do you truly, in your hearts, want to see a game be as epic and close as possible? Do you not wish for every matchup to be a marquee matchup? Imagine yourself, not as a player, not as yourself, but as those who might play, those untapped individuals whom have yet to wet their feet... That blood, that primordial ooze from which we all have sprung. Do you not wish for them the best we can deliver? Do you not wish for them to see victory snatched from sure defeat, their role models calculating their moves before the match even begins?

Its not too hard. I know we can do it as a community. We are good enough, we cannot put ourselves down.

We can be better, we can rely on ourselves, on our character, and not our numbers.

We can be crafty and sneaky, surprising and yet so controlled. We can be the best.

We cannot be afraid forever, content to stay in our ways in fear that we might not handle the mantle given to us.

We mustn't fear opportunity, we must embrace it. We must take these tools and use them to craft a better world, not just for us, but for those who would be like us. For those who would take after us. For those who would look upon us, years from now, when our names are but whispers in the wind, and say "If not for them, those brave players, those masters of their own destinies, those who would look in the face of adversity and not flee but face it knowing they could succeed... If not for them, where would we be?"

"History is written by the victors", once said by Winston Churchill himself... Let us not accept defeat, let us write a history together, you and I. Let us paint ourselves visionaries, pioneers, and let us look before we leap, if only to see the boundless potential before us.

Pathetic.

 

[Doombawkz]

Pathetic.

I'll see you at CEO.

 

[Mind Flex]

We need to play the game first. The idea has potential, but it may not be a part of MKX's destiny. I think it would be cool if it was, but there is a chance where variation lock saves characters from being bottom of the barrel because their variations don't change as drastically as another character.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Remember back when EVO was commentated and it was "f.23, and f.23, and f.23 breath, and then f.23 again" and everyone got really angry because they weren't commentating but they couldn't because of how lopsided things were?

Now imagine commentating an even match, then two 7-3 matches, one on each side.

Now imagine commentating three even matches, with interesting insight on the decisions made by each player either by them staying the character and denying their opponent the use of another variation, or the change and mind games between the champion and challenger on variations and selection.

Which, as a community, sounds better to you?
Which, as a viewer, would you prefer to see?
As a commentator, which would you rather speak on?
As a player, would you rather the game be decided on the first match? The second? The third?

@RM Indecisive , you commentate and have received flak for lacking content in the Lex vs Zod MU.
Which would you rather have? A close match? Mere steps upon an endless stage, never to be crossed?

@STORMS , you provide content to people through your streams. Which would you rather your viewers see? Close, to the wire matches? A bunch of landslides off of character choice alone?

@GGA 16 Bit , would you rather have a choice in playing Catwoman against Bane? Would you rather be punished for character loyalty, or simply be beaten because Bane exists?

I ask you, not as people deciding the rules like gods among us, but as individual players. Do you truly, in your hearts, want to see a game be as epic and close as possible? Do you not wish for every matchup to be a marquee matchup? Imagine yourself, not as a player, not as yourself, but as those who might play, those untapped individuals whom have yet to wet their feet... That blood, that primordial ooze from which we all have sprung. Do you not wish for them the best we can deliver? Do you not wish for them to see victory snatched from sure defeat, their role models calculating their moves before the match even begins?

Its not too hard. I know we can do it as a community. We are good enough, we cannot put ourselves down.

We can be better, we can rely on ourselves, on our character, and not our numbers.

We can be crafty and sneaky, surprising and yet so controlled. We can be the best.

We cannot be afraid forever, content to stay in our ways in fear that we might not handle the mantle given to us.

We mustn't fear opportunity, we must embrace it. We must take these tools and use them to craft a better world, not just for us, but for those who would be like us. For those who would take after us. For those who would look upon us, years from now, when our names are but whispers in the wind, and say "If not for them, those brave players, those masters of their own destinies, those who would look in the face of adversity and not flee but face it knowing they could succeed... If not for them, where would we be?"

"History is written by the victors", once said by Winston Churchill himself... Let us not accept defeat, let us write a history together, you and I. Let us paint ourselves visionaries, pioneers, and let us look before we leap, if only to see the boundless potential before us.

I respect the rhetoric, but quite frankly that is all it is. You have no idea how variations will play out and none of us do either. That is why this won't get solved until after the game drops, we have to see what they do to the meta.

 

[Doombawkz]

I respect the rhetoric, but quite frankly that is all it is. You have no idea how variations will play out and none of us do either. That is why this won't get solved until after the game drops, we have to see what they do to the meta.

There's always room for rhetoric, but I bring the fair point that its not just about gameplay but how we present ourselves to the rest of the world that is watching.

Game drops soon, I'm excited.

 

[Zoidberg747]

There's always room for rhetoric, but I bring the fair point that its not just about gameplay but how we present ourselves to the rest of the world that is watching.

Game drops soon, I'm excited.

That's the thing, we don't know if variation lock will lead to a counterpick fest. Hell, this whole argument could be null because a majority of characters can end up with only 1 viable variation. We'll have to wait and see.

And for the record, I really don't care either way. I just think we need to play the game first before making those decisions.

 

[Doombawkz]

That's the thing, we don't know if variation lock will lead to a counterpick fest. Hell, this whole argument could be null because a majority of characters can end up with only 1 viable variation. We'll have to wait and see.

And for the record, I really don't care either way. I just think we need to play the game first before making those decisions.

I just don't like the opposing arguments.

Also I don't like people saying Goro is banned.

 

[Compbros]

I've accepted that people are just not willing to see the side of change without seeing how it'd work and people keep coming with this "Wait til the game is out" posting. Fine. We wait. Colt said don't make arbitrary rules without playing the game. How about we have no standard going into MKX when it comes to character lock and TRY BOTH AND DECIDE instead of simply just doing full character lock just because? How about that? Compromise. TRY both methods. We've got locals and majors that are gonna be trying either or both, let's weigh the results and make a decision post-EVO based on the months of data we'll have at that point or even for EVO if they want community input. Let's not rest on our laurels when there's a potentially better system for character selection out there because of whatever reason. Let's see how both play out in the coming months, let's not play one way for months and then just say "fuck it, we've played this way this long, let's just stick with it". We've got 2 years minimum of MKX, let's not be complacent with this decision and just go with the first thing we try or what's been "standard" even though this isn't a standard type of game.

Do not flippantly dismiss the other side as stupid, ignorant, or stuck in their ways. Do not act like we all don't want what's best for the game and community. Let's. Try. Both. Please don't just fucking sit on your hands with this one NRS community. If Variation lock appears to be better for the game then let's change it to that, don't just accept what it's been. The same goes for if variation unlock is better. This is our game, this is our community, and we need to start fucking making changes if changes are best for the game and community instead of just letting shit rock.

 

[Rude]

Did someone just quote Sun Tzu in regards to this nonsense?

<<<<<<

Everyone needs to apologize in this dumb thread.

 

[Swindle]

The convos on Twitter are 100x worse.

 

[Shark Tank]

Really want to argue...but phone keypad too small...too many typos...don't loci my varipbn.

 

[HomeLee1121]

im just sitting here....... reading posts from a majority, not all, that won't even be travelling for MKX........try to make rules for people that will be traveling.........sure guys.