Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Braindead]

You said noone will risk coming to the tournament to lose because of the wrong pick. The first thing you do in the beggining of the set is picking a character without knowing your opponents choice.

I'm talking about blind picking. No one is going to risk wanting to select Sub Zero but mistakenly selecting Ermac because of blind picking.

EDIT: When you say blind picking, are you talking about hidden select cursor?

 

[insignis]

I'm talking about blind picking. No one is going to risk wanting to select Sub Zero but mistakenly selecting Ermac because of blind picking.

EDIT: When you say blind picking, are you talking about hidden select cursor?

yes, about hidden select. It's not that difficult to remember in how many clicks you character is. Also you can let opponent chose first and then do it openly. Or you can ask judge to help (both players name characters to the judge before match).

If you don't want to use hiddent cursor at all - you take the risk to be counter picked.

 

[Compbros]

How? Winner may choose a bad matchup, too. How is it bad ONLY for loser?

I didn't say only, I said potentially bad for loser meaning it may end up being bad for winner or neutral but the fact that there's a chance that it can be bad for the loser makes it a bad option to me.

 

[Zoidberg747]

You said noone will risk coming to the tournament to lose because of the wrong pick. The first thing you do in the beggining of the set is picking a character without knowing your opponents choice.

When you blind pick you have to navigate the character select screen without seeing the cursor. If we blind picked for every game someone would inevitably screw up and pick the wrong character, would be the most unhype thing ever. You can say double blind pick until you are blue in the face, no TO is going to make that a rule so do us all a favor and stop bringing it up.

 

[insignis]

I didn't say only, I said potentially bad for loser meaning it may end up being bad for winner or neutral but the fact that there's a chance that it can be bad for the loser makes it a bad option to me.

I will never understand it winner or loser will go home after that match and you still insist on loser's advantage.

 

[Braindead]

yes, about hidden select. It's not that difficult to remember in how many clicks you character is. Also you can let opponent chose first and then do it openly. Or you can ask judge to help (both players name characters to the judge before match).

If you don't want to use hiddent cursor at all - you take the risk to be counter picked.

Yeah... sorry. That's just plain stupid. No one is going to take that risk.

 

[HeroesNZ]

winner locked on both, loser picks both. that goes along with current fg Standards, grants the loser maximum freedom and keeps it as simple as possible.

Lmao

 

[insignis]

When you blind pick you have to navigate the character select screen without seeing the cursor. If we blind picked for every game someone would inevitably screw up and pick the wrong character, would be the most unhype thing ever. You can say double blind pick until you are blue in the face, no TO is going to make that a rule so do us all a favor and stop bringing it up.

Well, it's super hype for you to watch how players counterpick each other, good for you.

I don't see a single good reason to stop suggesting thing which makes sense to me (and not me alone) until the rule set is not consolidated.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

This is really really really really simple

STOP MAKING something out of nothing

Random stage always

Winner locked to character and variation

Loser can choose new character and variation

Done

DONE


DONE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Prinz]

Double blind seems good too.

 

[kabelfritz]

Lmao

o rly?

 

[TopTierHarley]

This is really really really really simple

STOP MAKING something out of nothing

Random stage always

Winner locked to character and variation

Loser can choose new character and variation

Done

DONE


DONE!!!!!!!!!!

What would be the purpose of variations then? Why would someone pick a new variation after they lost in the counterpick instead of just counterpicking the counterpick altogether? Seems like a waste of a new system in a new game.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Winner should be locked on everything.

That'll teach you to win instead of me.

 

[haketh]

Super Turbo runs off of a ruleset that is based on the arcade settings, and has done so since the beginning. The rules of variation freedom on character switch are used in Melty Blood and Arcana Heart, which both have arcade releases. I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning behind this, however. @haketh would be one to shed some light on why it's like this. On first glance, I'd assume it's because those games allow such for the champion.

It wasn't always like that, it used to be full lock for the winner till the community convinced Frenchbread to add switching variation after a win for the player who won to lessen the strength of counterpicks, same with Arcana Heart @THTB .

 

[TotteryManx]

And I'm saying that you can't look at it so simply considering there's other factors at play here. Variation's add something beyond "character vs. character" and so we can't just use tried and true methods because this game doesn't follow tried and true character selection.

So, letting the winner choose a variation first for the second game changes things how? Either way, the loser will counter it. It balances out the same. Hidden select is a part of the equation as well. There is no need to over think it.

 

[haketh]

This is really really really really simple

STOP MAKING something out of nothing

Random stage always

Winner locked to character and variation

Loser can choose new character and variation

Done

DONE


DONE!!!!!!!!!!

It's not something out of nothing, it's an important issue this community needs to solve ASAP but unfortunatley most of the scene doesn't have the exposure to games that do this so most people have no real idea how this should work or why.

 

[Compbros]

So, letting the winner choose a variation first for the second game changes things how? Either way, the loser will counter it. It balances out the same. Hidden select is a part of the equation as well. There is no need to over think it.

Because they can't counter the locked character and variation. In the char/var lock the loser can pick a character and variation against the winners character and specific variation whereas allowing a variation switch means the loser has to pick a character that can match well against any variation of the winner.

 

[Peckapowa]

It's not something out of nothing, it's an important issue this community needs to solve ASAP but unfortunatley most of the scene doesn't have the exposure to games that do this so most people have no real idea how this should work or why.

No pig is right, it's mind blowing to me people want to over analyze this, diff variations can only be treated as diff. Characters. I hate these threads it's stupid to even have to debate unless you want to argue the rules we have been using for the past 5 years are dumb but that's a diff. Bone to pick.

 

[haketh]

No pig is right, it's mind blowing to me people want to over analyze this, diff variations can only be treated as diff. Characters. I hate these threads it's stupid to even have to debate unless you want to argue the rules we have been using for the past 5 years are dumb but that's a diff. Bone to pick.

Except theirs precedent for Variation switch for winners

zzzzzz done with these convos till people get some real exposure to how other games handle this. Either way I'm still going to play MKX no matter what rules the community goes with but I'm going to push for variation switch at NWM.

 

[Compbros]

No pig is right, it's mind blowing to me people want to over analyze this, diff variations can only be treated as diff. Characters. I hate these threads it's stupid to even have to debate unless you want to argue the rules we have been using for the past 5 years are dumb but that's a diff. Bone to pick.

If you wanna talk about rules that other games use then Melty Blood/Arcana Heart is similar to variations in MKX and allow a switch. On the other hand, apparently ISM's from SF Alpha 3, which are like variations, weren't allowed a switch. So we have games that have done both sets of rules for this type of situation, why shouldn't we discuss what to do?

 

[Braindead]

No pig is right, it's mind blowing to me people want to over analyze this, diff variations can only be treated as diff. Characters. I hate these threads it's stupid to even have to debate unless you want to argue the rules we have been using for the past 5 years are dumb but that's a diff. Bone to pick.

The rules we have been using for the past 5 years weren't in a game that had 90+ characters and will inevitably be littered with 7-3 MUs. Each variation can easily, on average, have at least 8-10 MUs that they lose 3-7 or worse.

 

[Peckapowa]

What more is there to learn in terms of variation beyond exactly how much they change a character, per character?


When should we start testing it out then? There's several local tournaments that are gonna be happening before the first regional/major, these seem like the best time to test it because, if we wait to long, the community will just accept the default (character + variation lock) just as we accepted interactibles in IGAU.




When will that be though? It took months before people ran no interactible tournaments in IGAU and at that point the community had just accepted the mechanic. Do we wait until after the first regional? First major? Evo? Or do we use local tournaments such as NLBC to test these things out ASAP?

I'll give you an example, master of storms raiden and displacer are not going to play anything at all like each other, nor sub zero with clone or cryomancer. Theyll have radically diff my numbers

 

[TotteryManx]

What would be the purpose of variations then? Why would someone pick a new variation after they lost in the counterpick instead of just counterpicking the counterpick altogether? Seems like a waste of a new system in a new game.

Its more so to help character loyalists with a bad MU. I highly doubt I'll bounce around characters, so having a variation with tools to help in certain MU's is fantastic.

 

[Treadmill]

Lock everything for winner! There are going to be counters using variation types alone. How is this hard to agree on?

 

[Compbros]

I'll give you an example, master of storms raiden and displacer are not going to play anything at all like each other, nor sub zero with clone or cryomancer. Theyll have radically diff my numbers

The same is true for Melty Blood/ Arcana Hearts but they allow a switch. People keep giving the "it's been the way for years, why change it" but we're not looking at games that are very similar to our situation in MKX that have set a precedent for what to do.