What if certain characters had useless variations?

[Prinz]

Kitana's mournful variation seems pretty useless. Her assassin variation does the same thing, but better.

 

[Zephyrus]

It's like saying that Smoke can still have bad matchups, but odds are reduced because you can pick Kenshi.
Thing is, once you pick your kit, you are stuck with it at least until the end of a match, and it won't be any easier for you whether you can switch to another kit after the match or not. You gotta hold it until it ends. That's pretty much exactly what MU means.

It'll just be a bit easier to pick up a kit you are going to counterpick with - provided that your character has variation that is the bes for your gameplan of choice, otherwise you'll probably pick different character altogether. Unless, say, community decides to go with "character lock for entire tournament, no variation lock" Japanese style or something. But that's another story.


Again, do we know anything about TG? I was under assumption that he has different up-close game due to different normals, kinda like ninja or cryomancer.


What's lightning grab and how do you trap people with it?

No... the normal are the same (atleast they were in the demo they had us play). It's just that every hit does this little shock that increases the damage and combo count.

Lightning grab is that move where Raiden grabs you and shocks you. He had a similar move in MK9.

 

[callMEcrazy]

confirmed sektor sightings happened more often towards the end of the games lifespan, but i agree he was an underplayed character. on the other hand, we have seen catwoman counterpicks vs MMH in tournament which worked.

for example, maybe commando kano is absolutely useless against every character who has any projectile, but bodies the shit out of ferra/torr, who on the other hand just run over any zoner. or unbreakable sub zero can hold his own vs rushdowners of the meanest Kind (maybe lao/cassie/assassin kitana), while he fails to get past lets say kotal kahns low-tier zoning.

I never played or followed IGAU but I see what you mean about learning some low tier variations for specific match ups only.

I think overall it all depends on how match ups are. Will there be 7-3 or 8-2 match ups like in MK9 ? 6-4 match ups are a natural thing in fighting games but it's only when things are more skewed that they become ugly. If NRS can keep match ups to 6-4 I think we'll see a lot of variations, even mid-low tier, used fairly regularly.

 

[SLy]

Very True. Not every variation is going to give you the answer you're looking for. Rather you will have to dig deep in the lab and find it for yourself.

Instead of the "I cant do anything with this variation like the other two! Its worthless!" mentality.(Pessimistic POV)
It should be more of the (I cant do anything with this variation. Maybe im missing the objective of this. When is it useful. What matchups benefit etc).

Those are the type of people that evolutionize our characters for us.. In any game.

 

[kabelfritz]

I never played or followed IGAU but I see what you mean about learning some low tier variations for specific match ups only.

I think overall it all depends on how match ups are. Will there be 7-3 or 8-2 match ups like in MK9 ? 6-4 match ups are a natural thing in fighting games but it's only when things are more skewed that they become ugly. If NRS can keep match ups to 6-4 I think we'll see a lot of variations, even mid-low tier, used fairly regularly.

i mean, i hope the game can be designed a way that every character has at least one variation with a 4-6 matchup against all variations of his Opponent.

like

sub-Zero vs kotal kahn

A vs A 3-7
A vs B 2-8
A vs C 1-9

B vs A 0-10
B vs B 0-10
B vs C 0-10

C vs A 4-6
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 4-6

as you see i made up a terrible matchup chart where sub-Zero Variation A is simply terrible, version B can be infinited, and version C is at disadvantage but still ok. As bad as A and B are in this matchup, because of C the whole character is still viable.

a different Scenario would be:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 3-7

B vs A 5-5
B vs B 5-5
B vs C 3-7

C vs A 5-5
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 3-7

you got a lot of even matchups, but all kotal has gotta do is pick version C and ist 3-7 all the way. but how likely is that? Sub A, B, and C, are designed with different strenghts and its very unlikely that kotal C has the tools to body 3 different approaches 7-3.

Another variant goes:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 3-7

B vs A 5-5
B vs B 3-7
B vs C 5-5

C vs A 3-7
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 5-5

this case is a bit tricky. every of subs variations has the chance of going 3-7 against kotal. so in a set of 3, if you lose the first match, counterpick, but get counterpicked with a 3-7 until you lose the set 2-3

perfect would be if every MU Chart looked like this:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 4-6
B vs A 4-6
B vs B 3-7
B vs C 4-6
C vs A 3-7
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 5-5

you will probably pick Sub A, because he has the least negative matchups against any Kotal and you cant run into a 3-7. Kotal would probably pick C because thats the one that beats Subs best Variation. he could also pick A, because thats overall his strongest against any variation of Sub, but thats not gonna help if he plays against Sub A, which is most likely. if you lose with Sub A vs Kotal C first round, you can counterpick with C or B, but will probably be giving away a free win to kotal A or B the next round, and play that game until its 2-3 against you.

 

[Barrogh]

No... the normal are the same (atleast they were in the demo they had us play). It's just that every hit does this little shock that increases the damage and combo count.

You mean like permanent Shazam's trait? Kek. If Displacer has better combo potential, you can as well remove TG from the game then. Did you notice anything about TG's chip, was it different?

Lightning grab is that move where Raiden grabs you and shocks you. He had a similar move in MK9.

It was just an unsafe launcher/combo extender in MK9. How do you trap anything with it?

 

[kabelfritz]

thinkin about my above post, the pre-game-meta would go like this:

the player at overall disadvantage (1) picks the variation with the least extreme negative matchups. the player at overall advantage (2) picks the one who beats that. with hidden select, (1) can gamble by picking a variation that may have a 3-7, but beats (2)s best variation against (1)s least negative version, and in the following counterpick his way to a 3-2 win.

 

[Zephyrus]

You mean like permanent Shazam's trait? Kek. If Displacer has better combo potential, you can as well remove TG from the game then. Did you notice anything about TG's chip, was it different?


It was just an unsafe launcher/combo extender in MK9. How do you trap anything with it?

tg chip is much better than any other variation. If I remember correctly you'd keep buttons pressed to extend the combo with lightning.

And you use the lightning grab as an anti-air... not really a trap. I didn't explain it clearly. Which is basically what the master of storms serve for...

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Why are so many folks writing off variations before the game's even been released?

Way back in early 2012, when Soul Calibur V was first released, the mainstream belief was that Viola sucked, and some were very vocal about that. The result? Just as people were beginning to realise that she was, in fact, pretty decent, she ended up getting a whole load of buffs that she didn't need in the slightest, and overnight she became a top tier character that everyone hates.

Let the game be released. Give it at least 3-6 months to develop. Then after that a constructive conversation can maybe come about from saying how certain variations should be buffed.

 

[Barrogh]

Why are so many folks writing off variations before the game's even been released?

Way back in early 2012, when Soul Calibur V was first released, the mainstream belief was that Viola sucked, and some were very vocal about that. The result? Just as people were beginning to realise that she was, in fact, pretty decent, she ended up getting a whole load of buffs that she didn't need in the slightest, and overnight she became a top tier character that everyone hates.

Let the game be released. Give it at least 3-6 months to develop. Then after that a constructive conversation can maybe come about from saying how certain variations should be buffed.

That's totally what people will do though

And you use the lightning grab as an anti-air... not really a trap. I didn't explain it clearly. Which is basically what the master of storms serve for...

I was thinking that it's to give corner lockdown or something like that on top of it. If normals are the same and there are some mixups Raiden can use, then MoS will benefit the most from this situation, and I take you can still wallcarry decently with superman. Setting traps up though... Eh. Even then, ball lightning brake may be universal (or available to TG)...
Can you activate just one trap with MoS, and can you place one at range (like, is there "close" and "far" versions besides "above" one)?

 

[callMEcrazy]

i mean, i hope the game can be designed a way that every character has at least one variation with a 4-6 matchup against all variations of his Opponent.

like

sub-Zero vs kotal kahn

A vs A 3-7
A vs B 2-8
A vs C 1-9

B vs A 0-10
B vs B 0-10
B vs C 0-10

C vs A 4-6
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 4-6

as you see i made up a terrible matchup chart where sub-Zero Variation A is simply terrible, version B can be infinited, and version C is at disadvantage but still ok. As bad as A and B are in this matchup, because of C the whole character is still viable.

a different Scenario would be:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 3-7

B vs A 5-5
B vs B 5-5
B vs C 3-7

C vs A 5-5
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 3-7

you got a lot of even matchups, but all kotal has gotta do is pick version C and ist 3-7 all the way. but how likely is that? Sub A, B, and C, are designed with different strenghts and its very unlikely that kotal C has the tools to body 3 different approaches 7-3.

Another variant goes:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 3-7

B vs A 5-5
B vs B 3-7
B vs C 5-5

C vs A 3-7
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 5-5

this case is a bit tricky. every of subs variations has the chance of going 3-7 against kotal. so in a set of 3, if you lose the first match, counterpick, but get counterpicked with a 3-7 until you lose the set 2-3

perfect would be if every MU Chart looked like this:

A vs A 5-5
A vs B 5-5
A vs C 4-6
B vs A 4-6
B vs B 3-7
B vs C 4-6
C vs A 3-7
C vs B 5-5
C vs C 5-5

you will probably pick Sub A, because he has the least negative matchups against any Kotal and you cant run into a 3-7. Kotal would probably pick C because thats the one that beats Subs best Variation. he could also pick A, because thats overall his strongest against any variation of Sub, but thats not gonna help if he plays against Sub A, which is most likely. if you lose with Sub A vs Kotal C first round, you can counterpick with C or B, but will probably be giving away a free win to kotal A or B the next round, and play that game until its 2-3 against you.

WOW !! Yeah I got it. Thanks for taking the time.

This requires character lock to be the standard doesn't it ? With variation lock the whole variation counter picking thing goes outta the window. We'll have to wait and see what becomes the norm. I have a feeling though that the pro guys will push for variation lock. They are too performance oriented not to. They'd want variation lock and that would allow them to pick and choose the variations with strongest match ups overall from the entire cast instead of learning all 3 variations of any character.

 

[kabelfritz]

WOW !! Yeah I got it. Thanks for taking the time.

This requires character lock to be the standard doesn't it ? With variation lock the whole variation counter picking thing goes outta the window. We'll have to wait and see what becomes the norm. I have a feeling though that the pro guys will push for variation lock. They are too performance oriented not to. They'd want variation lock and that would allow them to pick and choose the variations with strongest match ups overall from the entire cast instead of learning all 3 variations of any character.

imo character lock, loser picks variation could be a way to go, combined with a variation quick select option after the match that doesnt require loading/menu time. the game is designed to benefit character loyalists and this is a way it could be enforced by the rules. im not 100% sure about it though, because limiting players freedom could also kill the fun for many. my perspective is just that of a stream monster, who likes an uninterrupted match flow to build up more hype, and watching battles between well-trained mains and not some half-assed counterpicks.

 

[Macdaddy]

Pretty sure reptiles invis variation and ermacs spectral variation are gonna be pretty fkin useless hahah

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

I cannot believe this thread is still going.

Here let me answer the question once and for all:

Duh there will be useless variations. Most characters will have them. A select few (Top 3) will have three viable variations that cover the spread.

No, NRS will most likley not do a thing about them... because they cant.

It is a basically a 90 person game people. There will be a bottom tier.

 

[Rice]

Pretty sure reptiles invis variation and ermacs spectral variation are gonna be pretty fkin useless hahah

Cant wait to see people after release body people with these variations just to prove all the people who think they are "useless" wrong.

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

Cant wait to see people after release body people with these variations just to prove all the people who think they are "useless" wrong.

I can body people with Noob Saibot and he is pretty useless. Being able to beat someone does not validate a variation.

Invisibility has been useless in MK since the start of the MK universe. Unless the invisibilty is similar to Ermac's WowOut then ya, it will be useless because invisibility will not change a MU to be in Reptile's favor.

 

[Barrogh]

Invisibility has been useless in MK since the start of the MK universe. Unless the invisibilty is similar to Ermac's WowOut then ya, it will be useless because invisibility will not change a MU to be in Reptile's favor.

Well, actually NRS tried to provide us the way to use invis in MK9 by adding projectile invincible frames to it (partial wowout so to speak), but apparently that wasn't enough. Figures. But who knows what NRS has this time.
For the record, there's an instance of invisibility done right. Chipp from GG has pulsating invisibility which is amazing for mindfuckery. But then again, this is a character with several teleports and triple jump in a back2block game with 2-frames tech window throws IIRC... Point being, there must be a synergy for invis to be worth it. Then we had Ares that apparently can incorporate invisibility in his plan, but it had synergy with his mixup game too.
So we'll see.

 

[orochiDragon]

I can body people with Noob Saibot and he is pretty useless. Being able to beat someone does not validate a variation.

Invisibility has been useless in MK since the start of the MK universe. Unless the invisibilty is similar to Ermac's WowOut then ya, it will be useless because invisibility will not change a MU to be in Reptile's favor.

Wouldn't it validate a variation if one could put in work with it? My reasoning is, if Chris G bodies people with some nasty invisible set-ups even though reptile's other variations are better, doesn't that mean the variation works? Of course I don't expect every variation to be great but im sure someone will come up with some very nasty invisible set-ups.

 

[Barrogh]

Wouldn't it validate a variation if one could put in work with it? My reasoning is, if Chris G bodies people with some nasty invisible set-ups even though reptile's other variations are better, doesn't that mean the variation works? Of course I don't expect every variation to be great but im sure someone will come up with some very nasty invisible set-ups.

Honestly, there are always hopes associated with possible low-tier enthusiasts. They sure make a FG look less dull and predictable.

 

[orochiDragon]

Honestly, there are always hopes associated with possible low-tier enthusiasts. They sure make a FG look less dull and predictable.

Lol yeah ur right. Im really hoping they take the time to make invisibility good since it's the only thing that variation gets. Even if they don't , ima rock it till the wheels fall off, like I did with Ares.

 

[Phosferrax]

Regarding Thunder God; it may do much more chip with normals, it may do more damage in combos, it may change his frame data for the better and even give him better strings.

Who knows?

Some characters will surely have a variation that becomes standard practice, whilst the other variations serve for specific MU's. I highly doubt that any variations will be useless.

 

[Barrogh]

Regarding Thunder God; it may do much more chip with normals, it may do more damage in combos, it may change his frame data for the better and even give him better strings.

Who knows?

There's a guy, I think it's @DreadKnight1 , who used different Raidens. He said that Thundergod does additional damage and hits with his normals and does additional chip as well. Kinda like Solomon's Judgement. We don't know much about frame data and reach though.

 

[DreadKnight1]

There's a guy, I think it's @DreadKnight1 , who used different Raidens. He said that Thundergod does additional damage and hits with his normals and does additional chip as well. Kinda like Solomon's Judgement. We don't know much about frame data and reach though.

No idea if frame data is tweaked however I have a hunch that if the additional hits in his strings are added on the end(like a few extra sparks)it will give better advantage on hit and block. And raiden actually has lots of 3 and 4 hitting strings in displacer and master of storms so those may do upwards of 6-8 hits in Thunder God. Reach is a mystery but thunder God supposedly gives 'enhanced lightning'. Maybe a projectile buff I don't remember.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Thunder God does extra chip, extra hits on top of the same string is always more block damage.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

im going to find it funny when a Master of Storms Raiden wins because everyone was so focused on beating the Displacer

 

[BRUTALITY]

i think there will be many useless variations