Tech WoWo vs KF's Slide

[A F0xy Grampa]

WoWos sweep is probably one of the most rediculous moves in this game. It gets her out of some situations that are rather difficult for most, safely, and on hit starts her entire offensive game up immediately.

Edit: A second slide from KF will beat out a 2nd sweep from WoWo. However, that doesn't change the effectiveness of the move.

If the first sweep is blocked you're safe to just jump backwards to either punish a sweep or avoid and attempt of offense from the KF player. Pretty simple flowchart:

- Block Slide.
- Mash sweep.
- If the sweep is blocked jump back.
- If the sweep hits begin offense. (WoWo has a way to completely nullify the slide as a wakeup option through full combo punishment while still maintaining pressure if the KF player doesn't wake up)

Here is an example of why it is a powerful move to have in the KF matchup, it basically eliminates her overhead option, leaving her with only MB B3 for a reliable armoured attack, and only means of maintaining any sort of offense.

The slide is -4 on block, KFs fastest normal is 6f, which is a high, her fastest mid is 7f, but the active frames on her sweep and her incredibly lowered hitbox make her avoid the D1 so WoWo will win the trade.

MB F3 will whiff and grant WoWo a full combo.
Parry won't work since the sweep is a low.
Neutral jumps get beaten by the sweep, you can however jump backwards or forwards, but neither of them will give you any form of offense. Attempting to airdash back towards her will give her a free uppercut anti air.

 

[ApocaLips]

You really didn't need to make a thread about this. We already knew that sweep can make f3 whiff.

Aside from the fact that KF doesn't really need to slide in in this MU because she can sit on a life lead because WW has nothing to check full screen daggers, you're still ignoring a ton of options post-slide. KF can still:

- Backdash
- Jump - risks an AA, but if you're sweeping, you'll have to block a j3 into pressure.
- d1 - if WW is frame-perfect on the response, then it trades in her favor. But if you weren't perfectly expecting the slide and delay by even one frame, you're in the vortex. Puts the onus of execution on the WW player.
- Block. Now you're at -6, our turn to pressure.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You really didn't need to make a thread about this. We already knew that sweep can make f3 whiff.

Aside from the fact that KF doesn't really need to slide in in this MU because she can sit on a life lead because WW has nothing to check full screen daggers, you're still ignoring a ton of options post-slide. KF can still:

- Backdash
- Jump - risks an AA, but if you're sweeping, you'll have to block a j3 into pressure.
- d1 - if WW is frame-perfect on the response, then it trades in her favor. But if you weren't perfectly expecting the slide and delay by even one frame, you're in the vortex. Puts the onus of execution on the WW player.
- Block. Now you're at -6, our turn to pressure.

Go in practice now and try to D1 the sweep with a trade, WoWo goes under it while it starts up. It's not a just frame thing anyway, the WoWo player can literally mash sweeps out and it will come out frame perfect every time.

WoWo is -6 with pushback, enough pushback to avoid ALL of your offense, press buttons and die basically, she can just mash more sweeps or crouch and 1 1 you on reaction to any button press.

WoWo can parry both daggers, or she can just duck, like everybody else. Also, she has shield stance which makes KF zoning do shit all. 0.5% chip on the iceberg and duck the daggers.

Shield toss is a better projectile than KFs daggers tbf, ice bergs are punished by both shield back AND shield toss too.

There is no 'J3 into pressure' after blocking a sweep and then jumping, you're out of range to do so, and on top of that, she has all the time in the world to anti air you. J1 and J2 will just straight up whiff, J3 only hits if it is done at a point so low to the ground it'd never happen in a real match because you'd be snatched outta the sky waaaaaaaaaaay before that.

You talk about sitting on a lifelead, but WoWo has A HUGE advantage over KF in the lifelead game because of her shield stance lol. You honestly believe that full screen daggers will win you a match against a competent Wonder Woman? What are you gonna do when she takes 1 dash in and can throw shit back?

 

[iKritikal]

Couldn't you delay the f3

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Couldn't you delay the f3

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

That can be backdashed out of, you can sweep and still have enough time to spot it.
It's also blockable.

There are only two outcomes of the MB F3 here, it whiffs and she dies, or it comes out too slow and WoWo has either evaded it, or punished it.

 

[ApocaLips]

Sigh . . .

We can play this game all day, but in the end you're the one who claimed she's "fucked," so you're the one who has to prove lack of options. And that's not going to happen when you keep ignoring them.

Go in practice now and try to D1 the sweep with a trade, WoWo goes under it while it starts up. It's not a just frame thing anyway, the WoWo player can literally mash sweeps out and it will come out frame perfect every time.

I didn't say it was just frame, and whether we get 0% in that situation or 2% is completely beside the point. You're not going to be able to react perfectly to every slide, and KF doesn't have to slide predictably in this MU. That means sometimes you're going to be slow to sweep, and d1 will win in those cases.

It's not news that predictable KFs get blown up. You can't assume that in your analysis.

WoWo is -6 with pushback, enough pushback to avoid ALL of your offense, press buttons and die basically, she can just mash more sweeps or crouch and 1 1 you on reaction to any button press.

Sweep at that range gets blown up by slide. We win on chip if you keep blocking it and sweeping. Everything else is parryable at that range. It's definitely not "press buttons and die basically."

WoWo can parry both daggers, or she can just duck, like everybody else. Also, she has shield stance which makes KF zoning do shit all. 0.5% chip on the iceberg and duck the daggers.

That's great, but if you want to get parry happy, parry gets blown up by iceberg. Again, options.

And KF's zoning isn't about chip. It's about meter gain.

Shield toss is a better projectile than KFs daggers tbf, ice bergs are punished by both shield back AND shield toss too.

(1) KFs usually know better than to throw out random icebergs, especially against airdash characters. It would only be used in this MU to deal with parry.
(2) The only range where shield can punish iceberg is also the range where iceberg can be MBed into vortex. It's a big gamble that has high payoff for KF.



And you didn't even respond to everything in my post. If you're going to claim a character is "fucked," you have the burden to refute all possible options. There's a reason that people rarely succeed on such a bold statement - it's very difficult to refute absolutely everything.

Can't just sit there and ignore perfectly valid options. Sure, sweep covers a lot of options KF usually has against other characters post slide. But it doesn't remove all of them, and she's still left with some decent choices. "Fucked" is a gross overexaggeration.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

If you've blocked a slide, you're NEVER gonna fuck up and not react with a sweep lol, otherwise you wouldnt have blocked the slide, its not like people dont know when they've blocked a slide...

There wont be a single slide that I block and think 'oh shit I blocked the slide wtf do I do?' the sweep is already being mashed out, thats KFs deadzone against WoWo. Deadzone to her sweep, where her only option to stop me from sweeping is MB B3.

Sweep at post slide range gets blown up by slide? Did you even watch the video? If you wanna slide again after blocking a sweep, you'll just get sweeped AGAIN. It's not even a hard game for WoWo to play, just sweep till it hits, or till the KF player gets frustrated and does anything else.

You really havent gone into the lab at all have you? If you parry the daggers, you can block the iceberg, you do know that when WoWo parrys anything she's at massive advantage? She could block the iceberg, iadg the iceberg, jump the iceberg etc etc. So no, it doesn't 'get blown up by iceberg'

You have no means to keep WonderWoman out with your 'zoning', and the moment you're in B2 range you're in trouble. It doesn't matter how much meter you gain, cause you'll be forced to lose it in any clash, because WoWo is a meterless character too.

She can literally walk her way in, ducking, parrying, or both, until you're forced to either jump or slide because you have absolutely no chance of getting near her with your t-rex arms and your year long forward dash. The frost player shouldnt be running away because thats her strength (really it isn't a strength), they should be running away because WoWo can put her in a shit scenario in 1 touch.

 

[ApocaLips]

If you've blocked a slide, you're NEVER gonna fuck up and not react with a sweep lol, otherwise you wouldnt have blocked the slide, its not like people dont know when they've blocked a slide...

There wont be a single slide that I block and think 'oh shit I blocked the slide wtf do I do?' the sweep is already being mashed out, thats KFs deadzone against WoWo. Deadzone to her sweep, where her only option to stop me from sweeping is MB B3.

Well I'm glad you think so, but that's not how it usually plays out. Slide covers a lot of the screen, and there are times it's blocked unexpectedly. Looking forward to watching you hitting this 100% at a tournament.

Sweep at post slide range gets blown up by slide? Did you even watch the video? If you wanna slide again after blocking a sweep, you'll just get sweeped AGAIN. It's not even a hard game for WoWo to play, just sweep till it hits, or till the KF player gets frustrated and does anything else.

Did you even read what I said? Of course not slide at post-slide range, that's retarded. I said slide after blocked sweep pushback beats another mashed sweep. You know, the option you said equals "press buttons and die."

You really havent gone into the lab at all have you? If you parry the daggers, you can block the iceberg, you do know that when WoWo parrys anything she's at massive advantage? She could block the iceberg, iadg the iceberg, jump the iceberg etc etc. So no, it doesn't 'get blown up by iceberg'

You're not even following the conversation anymore, so this is probably fruitless. I said iceberg beats a predicted parry. It's rock-paper-scissors, not rock wins every time.

You have no means to keep WonderWoman out with your 'zoning', and the moment you're in B2 range you're in trouble. It doesn't matter how much meter you gain, cause you'll be forced to lose it in any clash, because WoWo is a meterless character too.

KF's zoning doesn't work on anyone at WW's b2 range, idk why you think this is special.

The goal isn't to keep you out indefinitely. It's to force WW to come to KF or else let her generate meter all day.

She can literally walk her way in, ducking, parrying, or both, until you're forced to either jump or slide because you have absolutely no chance of getting near her with your t-rex arms and your year long forward dash. The frost player shouldnt be running away because thats her strength (really it isn't a strength), they should be running away because WoWo can put her in a shit scenario in 1 touch.

Again, pretty much everyone can do this, WW isn't special. It DOES force WW to approach and lets KF build some meter along the way.


This has gotten stupid. You're not even understanding the basics of what I'm saying, and you're arguing strawmen. Who the hell claimed KF can keep WW out forever?

 

[iKritikal]

How slow of a reaction time do you have if you can't tell when you block a slide?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Ah right I see what you're saying after blocking the sweep and sliding again. However, that doesn't make your situation any better, all it means is hitconfirming the sweep. If you wanna slide after the blocked sweep its a much greater risk for you than it is for WoWo because she's free to jump back and avoid every other option you have.

So I will hold dat. Even if it is an insignificant dat.

I never said about zoning in B2 range, I was talking about how easy it is to get into B2 range, a knockdown from WoWos B2 is just as much danger as a hit from a slide.

You dont parry daggers on prediction, you parry the daggers on reaction.

Regardless, it still means that after that first slide is blocked KFs options are shit.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Love it.

Kabal.

 

[Rickyraws]

Why is this here as opposed to the Wonder Woman forums? Surely they would benefit more from this? I WISH post slide WWs only mashed d3....

 

[Mr. Mileena]

WoWo is a cute nickname

wowowowowow

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Love it.

Kabal.

WoWo is far from Kabal

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Why is this here as opposed to the Wonder Woman forums? Surely they would benefit more from this? I WISH post slide WWs only mashed d3....

Lol, after a blocked slide, WoWo can't technically do anything other than D3 or D12 if she wants to contest KF point blank. D12 is parryable.
Anybody thats getting away with doing shit like 3 3 or B1's or B2s, you're giving too much respect.
D12 will also beat out her MB F3, I guess technically it's an armour breaking move if you're talking F3s B3s

 

[TigerBombs]

I'm not sure if you already know this, but couldn't KF just MB B3?

 

[R3CK3Dx]

nice tech, you need to upload more i want to see your WoWo in action

 

[trustinme]

I'm not sure if you already know this, but couldn't KF just MB B3?

i have no idea.my shitty frost was far too busy getting the complete shit kicked out of her the other day by foxy to give that a try.i really should stop blocking with my face.

 

[RiBBz22]

Can't we just backdash and whiff punish the sweep with slide? Backdash is a really standard option after a slide is blocked.

 

[ApocaLips]

Can't we just backdash and whiff punish the sweep with slide? Backdash is a really standard option after a slide is blocked.

No whiff punish, but yeah, you can backdash.

WW isn't the only character with a low option that screws up KF's d1/parry mixup post slide mixup and are fast enough to stuff MB f3. There's Ares (d1), Aquaman (b12), Batman (b113), Deathstroke (d1~sword spin - which puts you in the same damn situation as blocked sweep), Flash (d12), Joker (b1), MMH (b1), and Batgirl's previously unparryable d1. All of these matchups are at worst even.

It's been known forever that WW's sweep makes KF's f3 whiff - there's discussion about it buried in the stickied threads. The only "discovery" in this thread is that sweep "fucks" KF's post-slide game . . . but it doesn't. She has options in all of the above MUs which apply equally to WW. There's nothing special about her sweep here, especially with other characters getting WAY more reward off of their slide checks.

 

[Braindead]

So I will hold dat. Even if it is an insignificant dat.

I LOL'ed

 

[@MylesWright_]

This was listed as a 5-5 matchup and yet no one has any evidence to show why it isn't disadvantage Frost.
'WW does d3, KF blocks and then plays footsies with WW' is all i've read and everyone already knows Killer Frost cannot play footsies which is something I have already touched on in my mid tier at best thread that was unceremoniously closed http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/why-killer-frost-is-mid-tier-at-best.35898/

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Can't we just backdash and whiff punish the sweep with slide? Backdash is a really standard option after a slide is blocked.

Ofc you can backdash, but you'll never be able to whiff punish the sweep with a slide.
The purpose of the sweep isn't to get damage, its to teach the frost player that they have no chance of starting offense any time they're point blank.
Once you respect the sweep, then you're in trouble, WoWo plays alot around making the other player respect certain options in certain scenarios to start her offense. All it takes is 1 touch to be put in a constant guess game of low/overhead/cross over/cross over into low/overhead etc.

 

[Rickyraws]

Is is possible to catch a WW who 'mashes D3' with a delayed f3, but the timing may throw people off. Not to mention the WW may not mash d3. I think the point I'm trying to get across simplified is that it's still a guess. For BOTH parties, though WW is at less risk. Still at risk though.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Is is possible to catch a WW who 'mashes D3' with a delayed f3, but the timing may throw people off. Not to mention the WW may not mash d3. I think the point I'm trying to get across simplified is that it's still a guess. For BOTH parties, though WW is at less risk. Still at risk though.

Delayed F3 is blockable even after the sweep has finished. Even then the sweep will still go under it.
There's no guess involved, just mash the sweep once, jump back 2 there is no way KF can ever start offense.

3 ground rules for WoWo vs KF are:

Punish her long ass forward dash with 11
Mash the sweep after blocked slides
Dont let her jump