Strategy Whiffed Ice Clone during blockstrings

[Seapeople]

I'm sure you've all experienced having your ice clone whiff at the end of a blockstring from time to time. Here are the situations I know of that cause the ice clone to whiff:

-Using 224~clone in the corner
-Using 224~clone midscreen against low hitbox characters who are crouch blocking.
-Using (2)12~clone as soon as a character stands up after a knockdown. (This situation is most likely low hitbox and corner specific).

Do you guys know of any other circumstances that cause Sub's ice clone to whiff?
What I didn't realize until recently is that some characters can punish you with a full combo after a whiffed ice clone. Sonya can iaDK, I'm pretty sure Cage can f33~nut punch, etc.

This really affects the dynamic of certain matchups (especially when using 224~clone against low hitbox).
I could go into a lot more detail about this problem and how to deal with it, but I'll leave that open for discussion. Have you guys ran into this issue? What do you think are the best ways to get around it when fighting characters like Sonya?

This might also be a good thing to talk about whenever we do the Sub Zero Kouncil.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Honestly.... its so random
I can almost guarantee that the opponent isn't TRYING to get the clone to whiff.

Sometimes .... if I actually notice whats happening.... i wont clone and step back clone. Sometimes mixing it up can keep silly things from happening.

 

[Knoterror]

I think you can't clone immediately after a hit X-Ray. (not sure, I only ever X-Ray to finish match/round)

The only other instance I can think of is when trying to 222, Clone in the corner. You have to pay attention to the height/spacing. If you hit an AA 212~Freeze, 222 into clone will probably fail if you don't step back.

 

[The Green Machine]

d4 clone wiffs sometimes if you're too close, or in the corner, i believe.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

F4 clone whiffs if your too close. Spacing is your problem

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Honestly.... its so random
I can almost guarantee that the opponent isn't TRYING to get the clone to whiff.

Sometimes .... if I actually notice whats happening.... i wont clone and step back clone. Sometimes mixing it up can keep silly things from happening.

Its not random, its the Sub player. All you need to do is know your spacing.

As a general rule 214 clone should never screw you over.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Its not random, its the Sub player. All you need to do is know your spacing.

As a general rule 214 clone should never screw you over.

midscreen it can be weird... because you can't "know" spacing on 2,2,4 sometimes. It can be a matter of tiny inches.

But you're right. Just let me have the random

 

[Seapeople]

midscreen it can be weird... because you can't "know" spacing on 2,2,4 sometimes. It can be a matter of tiny inches.

But you're right. Just let me have the random

The best way I've known to figure out the spacing for 224 is to hit confirm if the first 2 is blocked while crouching. If the first 2 whiffs however, the clone will still come out.

Using raw 224 is alright, but as soon as the other player sees that 4 come out they're free to do what they want. I think using 22 by itself could be a solution. Say you blocked Sonya's cartwheel for instance...
22 will AA her for a full combo where 21 will not. If she blocks 22 you can follow up with an ice clone which will freeze her d4, but she can still d1 to break the clone's proximity (I'm not sure what else she could use to break the proximity). That would lead into baiting the d1 for a counterpoke and stuff.

 

[AK cyusstrike]

Maybe I can shed a little light on this cause it happens to me and I have a more conclusion about being more consisten.t All the instances presented in the beginning of the thread are true but main reason is the proximity hurt box of the oppnt and the clones input. Which cannot be done and established within certain range(up-close) against opponents. Reason why we get the whiffed clones mid screen even corner is the activation frames of the clone is 2 frames or just really fast in general. The clone input actually takes in effect on this point. yea its dumb but it helps sub get outta sticky situations, but in case of offense you have to learn what creates that little space to activate clone outside the hurt box of other characters. now to a science of things since the clone input does matter then a up close 224 immediate buffer clone whiffs most the time because the clone input is put in 1/2 frame of sec before it activates thus it’s still in the area of your oppnts hurt box and clone proximately range. Now usually if you are up close and you do 224 wait till after the kick hits before clone inputs its more consistent because of the push back from 224 well the kick actually creates that little space to activate clone outside the oppnts proximity range just like to d4 same reason to have more consistent clones off d4 clone now this is more consistent on hit on hit d4 has a push back and grants adv. but the main thing is the push back that push back creates the space where your clone input is activated outside the hurt box of your oppnt so look at it in the same sense of how on block d4 up-close doesn’t grant much push back and since that’s the case you input the command inside the hurt box of your oppnt thus making it whiff but if you space d4 to the maximum tip of sub foot on hit or blk your already outside the range of the oppnts proximity hurt box therefore it activates safely now let’s look at moves like d1,or d3, both these moves have a slight push back on block therefore you create that little space needed to cancel into clone on d3 cancel frames now on
Now on to the 212 clone since mk does have 3d/2d hit boxes on blk some same thing happens as in 224 on blk but mainly in the corner to stay with more consistent clones 214 clone not buffer clone but clone after the kick connects on blk inputs activates on the 2nd frame animation wise after push back has occurred to create a clone some ideas I do to be consistent with clone is well spaced d4 on contact main maximum range of connection or 212 wait till push back clone input or 214 wait for push back clone 224 on blk wait for kick to connect on block the input clone this creates the 2 frame input for clone to be consistent like also in corners people who see me play in tourneys might notice my clones are very consistent after so many offline battles and trials n errors but I hope this help make more Sub players have more consistent clones too again I’m just giving my opinion based off observation and my knowledge of frames but if I’m wrong I apologize I usually don’t post on TYM but I wanted to help my Fellow Linkuei brothers out J also btw there actually more stuff I can go on about when it comes to clones but I’ll talk about that later tired of typing lol

 

[ryublaze]

I barely use 2,2,4 clone if I'm that close. but if I do see that my opponent's crouch blocking them I usually do 2,2, delayed clone.

 

[Gilbagz]

Just like to add
2,2,4 clone is punishable with spear by Scorpion when he crouch blocks
2,2,4 clone and 2,2,4 naked are also punishable in the corner, although if they hesitate they will miss the punish. [Already well known, but just throwing it out there]

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Some people can punish even if the clone comes out.I've seen 212 x clone punishes with Cyrax net , Scorpion spear and Jax EN DP

 

[Seapeople]

One thing I've found useful against low hitbox characters is that if they are always crouch blocking to make your ice clones whiff and avoid your d4, it's especially important to keep them in check with f4~freeze. I'm still trying to get better at using 22 by itself though.

Some people can punish even if the clone comes out.I've seen 212 x clone punishes with Cyrax net , Scorpion spear and Jax EN DP

214~clone and 224~clone are both -18 (assuming the ice clone doesn't whiff). That would mean that any projectile or armored attack that can reach you in 18 frames or less would be able to punish it.
212~clone is only -10 and basically unpunishable...it's more punishable in the corner though for whatever reason.

Cyrax's net can't punish any blockstring into a clone, but I'm pretty sure he can force you to block it.

 

[DJLO]

i always thought it was just distance-dependent: if youre touching them it whiffs