When are combos blockable? Don't listen to the readouts.

[DAVE101]

As we all know, just because the game says you got a combo, doesn't mean it's a true combo.

The most commonly run into situtation is when the opponent is in a stumbling stage after a previus ground attack. If you do almost any attack while your opponent is stumbling or dizzy, it will still register as a combo but is indeed blockable. The only exception I can think of right now is the spear, but during times like after a tele-punch, a projectile, kabal's spin (during dizzy animations), a series of punches, or pretty much any attack were your opponent stays on there feet, will make them not able to do anything except block. They can't throw out punches, run, jump, shoot a projectile or anything but block. Just seems like wierd programming if they specifically did this but the combo still registers.. You might also notice this after being attacked by bosses. You can block these but will still go into a stumbling stage where you can block the next move, but it will repeat.


This part I hate and don't know much about, Juggling. I want to know when and where it's blockable. If the opponent is airborne but still low enough to the ground, they can block. Now realisticly they shouldn't but this does a ton of good for this game because relaunchers are very difficult to get unblockable. Otherwise this game would get so unfair...

Now, help me out, I think it's like this...
I don't know if this only applies to relaunchers or not

-UNBLOCKABLE-

-BLOCKABLE-



Please share all your knowledge. I know there's a whole lot more to it like countering attacks (reffering to multiple bike kick situation). Was there something about autocombos too?

 

[dreemernj]

Looks like MK Warehouse won't allow that direct linking.

The basic assumption is if they are on the ground they can block, except during autocombos and containments. There are other times as well.

For instance, if you are Liu Kang and you do a bike kick and it connects with your opponent as they are in an attack state (interrupting them mid punch, kick, uppercut, whatever), then they will not be able to block as they stumble back off of the bike kick. Midscreen in MK3 this meant you could run in after a bike kick anywhere on the screen and get an unblockable combo. In UMK3 the bike kick drains the run bar so it only leads to a free combo in the corner.

Also, when characters are bounced off the ground (Sheeva's throw, Cyrax's throw, TK Slam, etc) they cannot block until they settle on the ground at the end of the move.

The rules about juggling are pretty straight forward. You cannot block until you hit the ground. I'm not sure if relaunches are possible because characters go through a short state where they are on the ground but cannot block or if its because of the air starter connecting on the same frame that the character switches from air state to ground state. Either could be the cause for allowing relaunches to happen and I would bet its the latter or something related to it.

Also, I think a lot of times where it appears a character is in the air but blocks something or gets hit and reacts to the hit as if they were on the ground is because of the fact that the character sprite you see is 1 frame behind the gameplay. If you record an aa.hp and slow it down and watch it, you'll see the character getting hit change position, and blood spirts appear before they go into the frames of being hit. This is because the frames of animation are behind whats actually happening. Also, if you slow down any part of the game and watch the shadow, the main character sprite is 1 frame behind that. Record a character standing and doing a single HP and slow it down and you'll see the character's shadow HP before the character does.

In the case of something like Rain's lightning, its interesting to see the difference made between versions of it. In MKT for PSX, the lightning basically counts as a ground hit. There's probably a single frame where the character is about to hit the ground where it can be done and be unblockable, but 99% of the time it is blockable. But then in MKT for N64, it has a bigger area where it can connect and you can really juggle people with it and have it be unblockable fairly easily.

Not too sure about Rain in SNES and Genesis. Its probably an infinite. Seems like everything else is there.

 

[DAVE101]

Looks like MK Warehouse won't allow that direct linking.

Oops, it worked for me until I cleared my cache. I'm pretty sure I've done it before... anyway it's working now.

The rules about juggling are pretty straight forward. You cannot block until you hit the ground. I'm not sure if relaunches are possible because characters go through a short state where they are on the ground but cannot block or if its because of the air starter connecting on the same frame that the character switches from air state to ground state. Either could be the cause for allowing relaunches to happen and I would bet its the latter or something related to it.

Also, I think a lot of times where it appears a character is in the air but blocks something or gets hit and reacts to the hit as if they were on the ground is because of the fact that the character sprite you see is 1 frame behind the gameplay. If you record an aa.hp and slow it down and watch it, you'll see the character getting hit change position, and blood spirts appear before they go into the frames of being hit. This is because the frames of animation are behind whats actually happening. Also, if you slow down any part of the game and watch the shadow, the main character sprite is 1 frame behind that. Record a character standing and doing a single HP and slow it down and you'll see the character's shadow HP before the character does.

I've heard about it before. How for some combos the game thinks they are on the ground. But I haven't thought about it until you said it. If they are considered on the ground they should be able to block. I'm thinking it IS because of the air starter (jp, for relaunchers). Because isn't that why you can't do something like reptiles relaunch, dash, relaunch, dash, relaunch like from krsx66's video unless it's blockable. Reptile will just do regularpunches unless the opponent is low enough for the move to be blockable. It must be the jp...

I don't know of much of these, but what about (for kabal) some spin move, to spin where they are low enough to autocombo? Can sub-zero do something like that? I'm sure there is more but some moves will be blockable if they are aireborne like RH, JK, RH with male ninjas. That's because of the frame delay right?

 

[dreemernj]

You can spin someone with Kabal so that the spin is unblockable and they count as being on the ground after getting hit with it.

Reptile could never do a combo, dash, combo thing because his popup starts with punches. When they are close enough to the ground to register as on the ground, his punches go over them.

I forget, was the Nightwolf kick combo infinite on the robots a real infinite? He could just keep comboing them in the corner but I forget if its blockable.

But anyway, it seems like whenever a character hits the ground there is at least a frame or two where they are on the ground but cannot block. Its a tiny window, and so not something that can really be depended upon except in certain combos where the recovery time from the previous move lines everything up perfectly. I believe Sonya has a combo with an unblockable D+LK at the end, and there are quite a few occasions where you can get a standing kick in the corner on a falling opponent, have them react as if hit on the ground, and have it not be blockable.

Hopefully they'll fix a lot of this in the XBLA version. But not so much that it isn't fun any more. If UMK3 ends up anything like frogger nobody will be able to do combos anyway.

Just in case, I am still working on my own version of MK as well :wink:

 

[Shock]

Something quick before I forget about Kabal's spin. When you get into the wobble/dizzy frames, you can break out of that state with a special move, just like when you fall out of it, you can air throw, teleport punch, etc while dropping. You can connect a JK, or RH, or even and uppercut close to the corner, and get an unblockable grounded spin, performed in the same concept as a relaunch combo, hitting them on the frame before the landing state.

For relaunch combos and roundhouses corner rejumps, you must connect the JPS on the precise single frame available. It's not quite as hard as it sounds, but yes still difficult. There are certain velocity factors involved, like, you can do the JP and slightly different points in the air and it will still connect right because of how they are traveling next to eachother, essentially, falling into contact, or hitting it on the money. For Kabal and Sub-zero, for everyone they can relaunch, all you have to do is hold up+forward after a pop up and time the contact right. It is almost impossible to get it blockable, you either miss, connect on the ground, or juggle. They can always block relaunches when they reach the second frame you posted.

For Roundhouse rejumps, it is the exact same property as relaunch combos.

On aaHPs or LPs, I don't think it is ever possible to unblockably juggle, ie: aaHPHP, jump forward, JPS, to combo on Sheeva with just about anyone. That is never unblockable no matter how you time it and I am still not sure why exactly.

In the corner a lot of characters can stick in a ducking LK after their autocombos on everyone. You have a much larger window of contact as autocombos have different properties. You are hittable until the moment you can jump off the ground bypassing the get up frames. Examples: Nightwolf's corner infinite which works on 5 characters in UMK3 who have taller than normal collision boxes when lying down, matching up with his stomp. Now, on a similar note, Nightwolf's Axe produces the same juggling concept as a HP or LP, in which you cannot legit otg at all off it, but it is still possible to register combos with his stomp.

Some characters can also do their knee lifts in the corner on certain characters in odd situations, some blockable, some not. Kano can knee lift male ninjas (at least tested) off his grab, and it is unblockable. Ie: JPS, 4 hit pop up, JK, aaHP, grab, 4 hit kick combo. Jax can otg off his dash fist, but it is always blockable.

You can never be swept, then comboed, it is always blockable, but it is a good wake up tactic. You can however, combo and sweep. Kitana, Jade, and Jax can all midscreen sweep combo. Kitana's 4 hit fan combo sends them only about 1/3 screen away, and she can "just frames" sweep all the male characters except Shang Tsung everytime, so JPS, 4 hit, sweep is like 41%, guaranteed, but it has to be timed. Jade's sweep combo is off her 4 hit stick, very easy to get, Jax's is the easist, he can sweep everyone after his 7 hitter, leaving off the 7th hit. You can also do a standing LK to many characters, and standing HK to the male ninjas, Sub, Sheeva, Jax, and I think that's it, either juggled, or otg. Some characters can sweep in the corner too, like Liu Kang.

In the corner after a RH to get the otg HK or LK, HK's generally when connected are never blockable due to the height of the collision vs the placement of their center hittable box on their body. If it's not going to hit after the RH, you can stick in a LK, in which the only time it is truly unblockable is if they land standing up. Landing ducking and selling means it was blockable, which there are several combos in our vids that have that, but however are possible to be performed legit.

 

[DAVE101]

I forget, was the Nightwolf kick combo infinite on the robots a real infinite? He could just keep comboing them in the corner but I forget if its blockable.

Are you joking? Your'e Michael Richerdson! You don't forget these things..

I don't think you know what I mean about the reptile thing...

http://www.zippyvideos.com/3823390695637666/reptile_relaunch_/

I saw it in krsx66's new video 'apocalypse' as advertised in his signature.

In the corner after a RH to get the otg HK or LK, HK's generally when connected are never blockable due to the height of the collision vs the placement of their center hittable box on their body.

Yeah, generally.. Robots and sheeva are the exceptions. A guy I play has blocked many corner RH, HKs being smoke. I just tested it on sheeva and same thing. I couldn't find it on anyone else.




By the way, I was just practicing with rain and I got lighting after hp UNBLOCKABLE in the corner several times. I have tried over and over on the cyber ninjas and a couple others but no luck.

 

[Shock]

That Reptile inf is blockable.

Nightwolf inf, unblockable.

The lightening though, I dunno, I've tried, a lot. If it's not blockable, is it only on certain characters?

 

[dreemernj]

I am as forgetful as they come.




It would be very interesting to see if unblockable relaunching off of aa.hphp is impossible. Since characters can't interrupt autocombos, perhaps autocomboed hits put characters into a state where they cannot block and they remain in that state even after the last hit of the combo, leaving them vulnerable until they touch the ground again and regain the ability to block.

It seems as if there is a switch that is either turned to can-block or can't-block in the game. For instance with Liu Kang's bike kick interrupting something like an uppercut. When the uppercut starts the character goes into no-blocking mode. If a bike kick interrupts it, they stay in that no-blocking mode for the duration of the backward stumble and really don't regain the ability to block until they return to a normal state.

I've tried to get this to happen with other moves but have had no success.

 

[ded]

its easy to recognize the blockable against unblockable. the only stuff that is worth to explore is the recovery unblockable frames:

Hsmoke Inf
Sonya Inf
Mileena grounded aa Teleport Kick, Roll
Liu Mid-Screen - LK
etc...

 

[DAVE101]

I have only gotten Rain's lightning unblockable once since my first post about it. That's 4 times total. The first three I got with ease with only a handfull of attempts. I'm having just as much luck with sheeva as I am anyone else, so I don't know if it's still sheeva only, I thought it would work with robots too because their legs stick straight up too. I didn't think recording this would be of much use because how would someone know if I was really holding block? Well, after many more attempts I went back to look at it and realized something. Those two frames, like I posted with smoke but just pretend it's sheeva. I have tried it many times without holding block and this is what you get:

This is my assumption, if you get this frame, or anything after it (laying down, etc), it's blockable. Now check out the one I recorded


http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/20113283458.wmv



So far it's only possible after punches, nothing else gives you enough time because the lightning needs to be done very early. Very important, MUST BE DONE IN CORNER. The lightning has to be done early! It misses everytime if it's midscreen.

EDIT: and for genesis, it's an infinite (no hit limit) but I'm not going to waste my time to see if it's completely blockable or only certain situations call for it.

edit again: sigh, I have too much time on my hands... So for genesis. Straight lighnings are impossible to get unblockable. There is that thing where you have to wait a minimum amount of time before specials. it's too long to get lightning early enough. But in the corner I just got lightning, hp, lighting UNBLOCKABLE FIRST TRY! I have done it a couple more times and all you need to do is cancel the HP as fast as you can and it's impossible to mess up. The window is slighly larger. And it's not like PSX where you could go too early and miss. All of those frames will connect it. New simple infinite.

 

[ded]

yeah the lightening has a limit. try this infinite with rain if you have more free time:

RH, SUJK, Kick Combo, SUJK, Kick Combo vs Sheeva, it looks good

 

[Selpex]

this reminded me and leads me to believe that glitch cancelling in the corner is impossible, i tried on mkt the first frame i tried, csub missed the aahp and froze himself, the very next frame the aahp connectrf but got pushed back with no gc freeze, midscreen works fine

 

[Shock]

I don't think you can corner glitch cancel either. I've never done it and I can glitch cancel freezes easily.

 

[Selpex]

it might be possible in different situations like not up close to the corner, but far enough away to cause a pushback. doubt it though, looks like you can only gc at the end of a round

 

[Shock]

I don't think you can gc corner pushback I should have said.

 

[DAVE101]

corner glitch cancelling is very possible, just not always with high/low punch. Maybe something like: HP, JK (gc), tele-uppercut. And it's been done many times with kitana fan lift, since it's hit limit (0) is low enough to not even get pushback rules to apply.

 

[Shock]

Like I said, you can't glitch cancel corner push back/ice skate.

 

[DAVE101]

This may sound stupid, but on the topic of blockable/unblockable air throws (with cyrax) they are impossible to block ALWAYS because even regular throws can't be 'blocked'. In a situation after juggling where any other move would be blockable, can the airthrow still be avoided by holding back? The only reason I say this is a possibility because how you have to tap lp for the throw.

 

[Shock]

I am not sure any rules apply, I think it's just "free". I don't think the Cyrax air throw is a blockable move, but then again, I don't think they intended for it to be connectable while you are on the ground which is why I think it's a matter of just frames, as in, getting the throw contact out on the exact frame they touch the ground.

 

[ded]

talking about free hits - they exists since mk1, when you can fucked up the opponent's block using special setup.