General/Other - Shaolin Welcome to part 1/1 of Up Kick is not working properly

[Trustypatches]

This is going to be a long one, not that more than 2 people will read it all. Still, it's pretty significant as it can hurt the character badly in many MU's, but only if the opponent is ready to abuse it. This is not a thread made to demand Shaolin buffs, this is a thread made to bring a hitbox inconsistency to light so that more players may know why, when and who it occurs on.

Basically, there are two strings are used in Shaolin that are used on block and cancelled into up kick. F243 (for overhead) and b12 / b123 (for low). These don't have gaps, and are completely safe (not going into specifics vs Cassie and Lao). Characters with lower crouch block hitboxes can make the upkick whiff, which lets them full combo punish Jin on his recovery, whether he does a Shaolin drop or not. It is also perfectly viable to react to whether it whiffed or not and punish it upon seeing it happen.

Some of the characters with the smallest hitboxes are able to make upkick whiff after b12 by simply crouch blocking. This doesn't seem to have a pattern to why it occurs, though please let me know if there is a reason why it occurs like this (range for example). However, there are many characters that can make the upkick after f243 whiff by crouch blocking after the overhead. It also seems far more consistent, with some characters almost 100% making it whiff if they crouch blocked everything after the f2. This effectively makes one of Shaolin's best tools (50/50's into safe chip) useless in certain MUs. Anyway, I made a few videos showing examples of different characters making it whiff, and how they can punish it. As far as I know, all who can make it whiff can punish it.

Kitana:

This one is an odd case, as she doesn't seem to be able to make the flykick whiff off of either b12 or f243, but she does have an odd position change as she is pulled further away from Jin as he flies over. This means a shaolin drop will whiff and be punishable, or they remain at the shown distance, where he is -7. This only occurs with crouch blocking. This is potentially favorable to Jin, as he gets away completely free after a blocked low/oh.

Cassie:

Potentially the worst case, as she can make b12 whiff a lot of the time and also makes f243 whiff pretty consistently.

D'vorah:

Another relatively bad case. Makes b12 whiff not too often, but f243 whiffs pretty consistently.

Mileena:

Doesn't seem to ever make b12 whiff, but f243 does.

Reptile:

Only f243.

Scorpion:

Close to Cassie, if not worse. Makes b12 whiff a lot and f243 whiff quite consistently. The thing that makes him worse is how easy his punish is on it.

Sub:

Sub makes f243 whiff only, but gets an easy punish with whiffed slide and will also get them in the corner from a midscreen whiff.

 

[Trustypatches]

Added notes:
-Kano can make it whiff off of f243, but not b12 as far as I know. He can get a full combo by running full screen or just do a kano ball for an easy 8%.
-Jacqui's hitbox can also make it whiff.
-Tanya could potentially make it whiff but I have never tested.
-I am told Bo makes it whiff but have never tested myself.

This makes 9 characters (Not including Tanya or Bo) that can make upkick whiff, and therefore punish it.

 

[Youphemism]

Added note: Kano can make it whiff off of f243, but not b12 as far as I know. He can get a full combo by running full screen or just do a kano ball for an easy 8% into HKD.

Ball's a splat, not a HKD. But yeah I think this should be more consistent, I think the main problem is that Cassie and Scorpion have insanely small crouching hitboxes. They cause problems for Kano too.

 

[Trustypatches]

Ball's a splat, not a HKD. But yeah I think this should be more consistent, I think the main problem is that Cassie and Scorpion have insanely small crouching hitboxes. They cause problems for Kano too.

Thanks, changed it. But yeah, small hitboxes are one of the biggest issues in the game imo.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

i've had this kill me plenty of times

 

[Tweedy]

Kung Lao main here.

You said "not going into specifics vs Cassie or Lao"

I was expecting some sort of video, containing cheese that I could use with Lao. breha

Now that my trolling is out of the way.

Obviously Lao punishes the upkick every time with EX spin if not canceled into dropkick, but it seems like the dropkick is only punished 50% of the time.

Edit: I've never encountered anything else like this in the game. Not saying that he should get to punish either. Just wondering why it's inconsistent.

 

[Trustypatches]

Kung Lao main here.

You said "not going into specifics vs Cassie or Lao"

I was expecting some sort of video, containing cheese that I could use with Lao. breha

Now that my trolling is out of the way.

Obviously Lao punishes the upkick every time with EX spin if not canceled into dropkick, but it seems like the dropkick is only punished 50% of the time. I've never encountered anything else like this in the game.

The frame data saying -7 for upkick is correct, which is why you get the punish with ex spin, however, the frame data isn't exactly 100% correct when it says -7 for Shaolin drop. It is purely dependent on the timing of drop, the better the timing, the less - it is. It is pretty easy to consistently make it safe on 7 frame reversals (spin), but 6 framers (flip/up ball) are much harder. I could give you some cheese, and that would be to buffer ex spin every time they do the upkick, cause if they leave a gap you can punish. If they do either b12 or f243 cancelled into upkick and do a shaolin drop on the same side they went up, then it should be a guaranteed punish with ex spin.

 

[countrypistol]

In another thread I raised a similar point and 16Bit explained that the cause of hit box issues is as follows:

Hitbox quirks are up to a designer's discretion so I cannot give you a hard and fast rule on what should or shouldn't happen when it comes to things like stance or gender specific combos. I am just saying that high attacks hitting a crouch blocking opponent is not a rule and never has been.

There are a number of reasons for hitbox anomalies. The victim could slightly move during their ducking animation, it could be stance specific, it could be range dependent. Again, these are up to a designer's discretion.

I am assuming that the slight movements he was referring to are breathing hurt boxes as the videos we were discussing were against a crouch blocking dummy (Scorpion I believe).

You may have to prepare yourself for the possibility that these issues will not be corrected as they are intended by the designers.

 

[Trustypatches]

In another thread I raised a similar point and 16Bit explained that the cause of hit box issues is as follows:

Thanks for showing me this. I had a thought that the inconsistencies may be explained by the breathing hurtboxes but that doesn't make this any less frustrating lol. For some characters it whiffs consistently so I would guess that is down to purely smaller hitboxes.

 

[TackyHaddock]

I agree it should be more consistent, but I frankly have noticed that whiffing the upkick does not always lead to a punish. If often sends you far enough away from the opponent that they can't punish, and you will often even have time to throw a chakram upon landing

 

[Trustypatches]

I agree it should be more consistent, but I frankly have noticed that whiffing the upkick does not always lead to a punish. If often sends you far enough away from the opponent that they can't punish, and you will often even have time to throw a chakram upon landing

Upkick's distance is fixed on whiff, it shouldn't vary how far it sends you. A punish is a punish though. I had recorded the dummy to block as soon as they landed, so when Jin was hit in the videos I made after he had landed (before he had landed in scorpion's case) he was still in his recovery frames of upkick. People not chasing you down for the punish after it had whiffed is just people not taking advantage of it because people are not expecting it to whiff, and it doesn't exactly look punishable anyway. Believe me though, if they make it whiff (which some characters can do consistently), then they can punish it every time. It is a huge problem for the character. People just haven't taken advantage of it yet.

 

[ienjoywinning]

NotLikeThis

 

[TackyHaddock]

Upkick's distance is fixed on whiff, it shouldn't vary how far it sends you. A punish is a punish though. I had recorded the dummy to block as soon as they landed, so when Jin was hit in the videos I made after he had landed (before he had landed in scorpion's case) he was still in his recovery frames of upkick. People not chasing you down for the punish after it had whiffed is just people not taking advantage of it because people are not expecting it to whiff, and it doesn't exactly look punishable anyway. Believe me though, if they make it whiff (which some characters can do consistently), then they can punish it every time. It is a huge problem for the character. People just haven't taken advantage of it yet.

Hmm good points. So maybe it is less practically punishable in real fights even tho its theoretically punishable every time

 

[Trustypatches]

Hmm good points. So maybe it is less practically punishable in real fights even tho its theoretically punishable every time

I dunno man, I wish you were right, but doing this in practice mode with different characters multiple times showed me that you can not only react to the kick whiffing with these characters and punish, but some characters make the f243 upkick whiff almost consistently. Again, there are also characters like Scorpion (who can EASILY full combo punish with ex teleport when they see it whiff), Kano (kanoball is a VERY easy punish too) and finally you could even get an easy punish with projectiles if you for some reason couldn't react and chase down for a full combo. Oh well, here's to hoping the hitboxes get fixed. #FixUpKick

 

[stamatis]

Rep's crouch block does that too.

 

[JesterSMX]

Add BRC to the list...

 

[Alright RyRy]

Your worried about a high move not hitting the opponent on crouch block? Especially a really "high" starting animation?

looks like the moves is working fine to me.

 

[M.D.]

There should be a third option in the poll which should read:
"I just read to see with who to counterpick to destroy shaolin upkick spammers".

Which i did.

Thanks.

 

[GAV]

So, it misses girls and fat guys.

Realism fellas...his "eww gross" twitch is in there...

 

[Trustypatches]

Your worried about a high move not hitting the opponent on crouch block? Especially a really "high" starting animation?

looks like the moves is working fine to me.

Yes I am worried about a high moving not hitting on crouch block, seeing how that is the norm in this game. It is an inconsistency issue as well. If it didn't work 100% of the time on 100% of the characters then fine, the move was clearly designed to not hit on crouch block. However, it is less than half of the cast and even then it whiffs less than half of the time... Depending on the character.

 

[Alright RyRy]

Yes I am worried about a high moving not hitting on crouch block, seeing how that is the norm in this game. It is an inconsistency issue as well. If it didn't work 100% of the time on 100% of the characters then fine, the move was clearly designed to not hit on crouch block. However, it is less than half of the cast and even then it whiffs less than half of the time... Depending on the character.

welcome to match-up specifics. All of the Shaolins I have played, they have never made this move whiff before.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Your worried about a high move not hitting the opponent on crouch block? Especially a really "high" starting animation?

looks like the moves is working fine to me.

Except high moves are not meant to whiff on crouch blocking opponents, so it's clearly not working fine.

welcome to match-up specifics. All of the Shaolins I have played, they have never made this move whiff before.

thats great, that doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't happen when it does.

 

[Alright RyRy]

Except high moves are not meant to whiff on crouch blocking opponents, so it's clearly not working fine.



thats great, that doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't happen when it does.

Goro has a command grab that whiffs on crouch blocking opponents, at certain ranges. It happens, just like for example reptiles 121xFast ForceBall doesnt connect on HIT because of the characters STANCE, it happens.

Thread incase you were wondering what I was talking about.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/121xfast-forceball-issues.59298/

Yes the move is a high, but you have to look at the animation and when he is hitting the opponent, Kung Jin pretty much hits the face area, there for even though it is considered a "high" because it has to be either a HIGH, OVERHEAD, MID, LOW or THROW, the move has a SUPER high starting hitbox, hell I believed Jasons B1 whiffed sometimes on crouch blocking opponents and that is a MID.

Just because a move is a high or mid, doesnt always mean they should all work the same. For Example Reptiles F4 is a mid, Jasons B1 is a mid, but 1 is a TRUE mid, meaning either it cant be low profiled or is really rare meaning only 1 character can low profile it. Jasons B1 is not a true mid, it gets low profiled ALOT due to the height of Jason.

Not trying to be mean, but these things have existed in this game since day 1, if you do not understand this by now then I am sorry.

When I saw this thread I thought it was weird at first but then I really looked at the move and understood where it hit the character.

This video gave me everything I need to know.

watch the 1st second of the video and look where it hits mileena. Then watch when Mileena crouch blocks. There is your answer.

16 Bit said:
I am just saying that high attacks hitting a crouch blocking opponent is not a rule and never has been.

 

[Trustypatches]

Goro has a command grab that whiffs on crouch blocking opponents, at certain ranges. It happens, just like for example reptiles 121xFast ForceBall doesnt connect on HIT because of the characters STANCE, it happens.

Yes the move is a high, but you have to look at the animation and when he is hitting the opponent, Kung Jin pretty much hits the face area, there for even though it is considered a "high" because it has to be either a HIGH, OVERHEAD, MID, LOW or THROW, the move has a SUPER high starting hitbox, hell I believed Jasons B1 whiffed sometimes on crouch blocking opponents and that is a MID.

Just because a move is a high or mid, doesnt always mean they should all work the same. For Example Reptiles F4 is a mid, Jasons B1 is a mid, but 1 is a TRUE mid, meaning either it cant be low profiled or is really rare meaning only 1 character can low profile it. Jasons B1 is not a true mid, it gets low profiled ALOT due to the height of Jason.

Not trying to be mean, but these things have existed in this game since day 1, if you do not understand this by now then I am sorry.

When I saw this thread I thought it was weird at first but then I really looked at the move and understood where it hit the character.

This video gave me everything I need to know.

watch the 1st second of the video and look where it hits mileena. Then watch when Mileena crouch blocks. There is your answer.

I know why it whiffs and such, I spent a while testing this stuff. The reason I made this thread 80+days ago was not to cry for Shaolin buffs either (I think the character is great), it was more to point out this issue, and show people how, when and who it happens with.

I know varying hitboxes have existed since day 1 lol, and I know they don't just occur with Jin. This thread is literally just made to explain and show how it does affect him. The title is more of a joke, but honestly I do have an issue with varying hitboxes, especially crouch hitboxes. I think they are really stupid and just bring about unnecessary annoyances that have to be dealt with. You would probably be best arguing with Sub players on why them having specific combos is justifiable.

 

[Alright RyRy]

I know why it whiffs and such, I spent a while testing this stuff. The reason I made this thread 80+days ago was not to cry for Shaolin buffs either (I think the character is great), it was more to point out this issue, and show people how and when it happens.

I know varying hitboxes have existed since day 1 lol, and I know they don't just occur with Jin. This thread is literally just made to explain and show how it does affect him. The title is more of a joke, but honestly I do have an issue with varying hitboxes, especially crouch hitboxes. I think they are really stupid and just bring about unnecessary annoyances. You would probably be best arguing with Sub players on why them having specific combos is justifiable.

My post wasn't directed towards you, I know this isn't a "Please Fix this Move" thread. I didn't know this existed so I am glad I popped in here and watched it, so thanks for sharing.