Question - Pumped Up vs Grandmaster?

[LaidbackOne]

So I picked up Jax lately and I just played a pretty competent Sub0. Not counting the shit that he got away with due to online ( faaaak u NRS) I noticed that Sub easily beats f2 with d4 so I can't start my pressure from a distance and the clone makes jumping risky af. Big thanks for any useful tips. Im counting on u Jax mains <3

 

[Undergroundepict]

So I picked up Jax lately and I just played a pretty competent Sub0. Not counting the shit that he got away with due to online ( faaaak u NRS) I noticed that Sub easily beats f2 with d4 so I can't start my pressure easily and the clone makes jumping risky af. Big thanks for any useful tips. Im counting on u Jax mains <3

Ground pound, ground pound, ground pound!


It breaks his clone AND deals out 10% damage, so use it frequently. Additionally, it low profiles his mid iceballs, which you can do on reaction with enough practice. Try labbing it out. Be careful for the ex iceball.

Be careful with air ground pound, it is worth throwing out on occasion in this MU, but is also -44 on whiff. Reducing the recovery frames on air GP is about the only Jax buff that I feel justified in calling for.

Also, don't play online. The amount of Sub's who continuously throw out wake up slide and jip/jik/njp/njk and get away with it is maddening to me. If online were actually representative of mkx, Sub-Zero would be god-tier.

 

[boba_buster]

No sub player has ever landed a njp in an online match , his njp sucks
And sub suffers more than almost anyone else when it comes to lag. All his combos are as tight as a frogs .... U know what

 

[Undeadjim]

The only thing that makes this MU anything but my worst nightmare is that I'm able to IAGP so I can keep the clone honest for no meter. If the Sub likes to D4 try and bait it and whiff punish with F3.

 

[RM Ree]

F4 xx clone is the only safe clone cancel GM has. Ex dash fist and launch him if he tries it off any other string/ normal. If he burns a bar on clone, however, he's safe after any string. F4 xx ex clone is a frame trap. Not sure what Jax jip/ jik looks like, but many characters can simply jump over unsafe clones and start a combo/ mix up after unsafe clone strings (I'm able to do this in SZ mirrors).

I wouldn't ground pound too often. Better Sub Zero's are looking for ways to get in and corner you. Raw ground pound is just what he needs, and likely won't work more than once.

Once in the corner, no wake up Jax has is safe. GM can beat every corner armor option you have with an f12 ender, clone, d4 check. D4 will take armor and clone will freeze you after. Better players can fit in a b2, f4, or even a d2 for an extra, unscaled 14% and still freeze you back into the same set up. NJP is a popular option vs GM's corner set ups, but we know this the same as opponents do.

Respect clone in neutral. As a pressure character, know that SZ controls the pace this time. The worst thing Jax can do is walk backwards away from clone. Stay right next to it (be wary of throw into clone though). You can run up block the clone to shatter it, but it takes practice. And still this means you're going to take 1 strike/ throw mix up. The only exception is f33. It's -3 for Sub and is likely a bait so that he may ex frost bomb Jax's counter action. But after successfully blocking that or the f33 bait, pressure belongs to Jax. Do what you do best at this point.

SZ can low profile Jax projectiles despite them being mid with slides. Ex ice blast will eat Jax ex projo's as well. Any trade with clone toss is a bad one unless it's with armor.

 

[Undergroundepict]

No sub player has ever landed a njp in an online match , his njp sucks
And sub suffers more than almost anyone else when it comes to lag. All his combos are as tight as a frogs .... U know what

You see, your problem is you actually know how to play the game. You are not a scrub. The online players I am referring to are.

 

[Undergroundepict]

I wouldn't ground pound too often. Better Sub Zero's are looking for ways to get in and corner you. Raw ground pound is just what he needs, and likely won't work more than once.

I'm referring to Pumped Up Ground Pound specifically. Perhaps stating it three times with an exclamation point at the end is overstating it, but it does work very well to counter out Sub-Zero's clone. No, you don't want to use it very often when trapped in the corner, but it is a very useful full-screen tool.

With a 21 frame recovery it is fairly easy to bait opponents into attempting to punish a jumped ground pound (start up, FTR, is 36 frames), and then hitting them with a 11 or raw EX Gotcha Grab. This works on more opponents than just Sub-Zero, but can be useful in the matchup.

Just pointing this out in case you are thinking of HW or Wrestler Jax GP, and also because most players ( even those who play at a very high level) remain painfully unaware of Pumped Up Jax's capabilities, because nobody really plays as him.

 

[Forbidden_Donut]

I main Jax and I alt Grand Master so I feel like this really pertains to me lol. I'm pretty damn confident that Jax wins this matchup. The absolute key in this matchup (with any jax variation) is to EX dash punch his clones. When he does ANY string into a clone cancel on block (Except for f4 clone) you can punish him for 38% with massive corner carry. When you play a really good sub zero, they will start using EX clone to punish your punish attempt and thats when the matchup gets really fun and high level. Also, pumped up specifically, use ground pound to get rid of clone. What I like to do in the neutral is jump back when I think hes going to clone, if he does, I input dd4 (if he runs in i jump kick), clone is gone, and then I start throwing energy waves (be careful because he can slide under them).

Sub bodies the whole cast in the corner so you just kind of have to bite that bullet, but it's pretty fair since Jax is also an absolute corner monster as is 99% of the cast lol

Also, worth mentioning for HW and Wrestler, if you dont have meter and Sub is doing block string clone cancels, use your own ground pound the instant he cancels into clone and sub will hop right into it. Sub can backdash or jump at you, but 99% of the time it catches the Sub player off guard. Its awesome

 

[LaidbackOne]

Ground pound, ground pound, ground pound!


It breaks his clone AND deals out 10% damage, so use it frequently. Additionally, it low profiles his mid iceballs, which you can do on reaction with enough practice. Try labbing it out. Be careful for the ex iceball.

Be careful with air ground pound, it is worth throwing out on occasion in this MU, but is also -44 on whiff. Reducing the recovery frames on air GP is about the only Jax buff that I feel justified in calling for.

Also, don't play online. The amount of Sub's who continuously throw out wake up slide and jip/jik/njp/njk and get away with it is maddening to me. If online were actually representative of mkx, Sub-Zero would be god-tier.

Well, he totaly is godlike online. Gotta love almost insta b2 after a blocked d4. Believe me, I wouldnt play online if I had a big offline scene but since I only know a few people that play the game in person, I gotta play like this to get any sort of knowledge about the other characters.

 

[Braindead]

Gotta love almost insta b2 after a blocked d4

Ahhh gotta love those people.

 

[RM Ree]

With decent spacing, blocked d4 pushes SZ back far enough to bait and whiff punish a lesser counter poke using that b2.

 

[ChaosTheory]

The absolute key in this matchup (with any jax variation) is to EX dash punch his clones. When he does ANY string into a clone cancel on block (Except for f4 clone) you can punish him for 38% with massive corner carry.

I'm still lacking in experience, so I'm still a little iffy here. In your experience, do you armor through Clone after a block-string on reaction every time? Do you ever block, say, Sub's b1,2 and go for reversal EH Overhead Punch, but they didn't Clone? I've asked about this before, but I've still not experienced somebody doing it to me personally. I'm curious.

 

[RM Ree]

I'm still lacking in experience, so I'm still a little iffy here. In your experience, do you armor through Clone after a block-string on reaction every time? Do you ever block, say, Sub's b1,2 and go for reversal EH Overhead Punch, but they didn't Clone? I've asked about this before, but I've still not experienced somebody doing it to me personally. I'm curious.

In MU discussions, it's often best to assume each player is at the highest skill level to avoid bad habits. Obviously, some things are up for debate due to personal preference or the MU not being fleshed out completely yet.

To answer the question though, I've seen both happen. PND Ketchup has been caught trying to use trance on a clone that never came out (#baited). But I've also seen players consistently armor through clone on reaction to the clone itself rather than the string preceding it.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Big thanks for all the tips guys. Im aware that I can armor through all normal clone cancels except f4 etc, I mostly based this post after playing online so sometimes I couldn't even punish a slide with f21 which doesn't happen offline. The funny thing is, now I see how much "pain, suffering and salt" I caused since GM was the first character I tried.

 

[ChaosTheory]

In MU discussions, it's often best to assume each player is at the highest skill level to avoid bad habits. Obviously, some things are up for debate due to personal preference or the MU not being fleshed out completely yet.

To answer the question though, I've seen both happen. PND Ketchup has been caught trying to use trance on a clone that never came out (#baited). But I've also seen players consistently armor through clone on reaction to the clone itself rather than the string preceding it.

Well that's kinda why I keep asking. I'm trying to determine if it's a legitimate tactic players are utilizing. When I form a strategy, I'll always base it off the assumption you mentioned, even when a less developed strategy might work better against lesser opponents.

Like I mentioned, I haven't experienced it in my personal matches (not to imply it can't be done). Do you have any videos you can point me to or players that are good at it that I can try to connect with?

 

[RM Ree]

Well that's kinda why I keep asking. I'm trying to determine if it's a legitimate tactic players are utilizing. When I form a strategy, I'll always base it off the assumption you mentioned, even when a less developed strategy might work better against lesser opponents.

Like I mentioned, I haven't experienced it in my personal matches (not to imply it can't be done). Do you have any videos you can point me to or players that are good at it that I can try to connect with?

Tom Brady played a Jax semi recently that did well vs clone by run blocking to shatter or armoring through. I believe he lost that set, too so it'd be a great resource to post here. I'll keep digging through yt.

EDIT: I'm only seeing HB Tyrant's HW Jax. CDjr has some decent matches, but they're older.

 

[Tom Brady]

Tom Brady played a Jax semi recently that did well vs clone by run blocking to shatter or armoring through. I believe he lost that set, too so it'd be a great resource to post here. I'll keep digging through yt.

EDIT: I'm only seeing HB Tyrant's HW Jax. CDjr has some decent matches, but they're older.

You can check the Yomi stream where Tyrant and i played a long set.

 

[LaidbackOne]

You can check the Yomi stream where Tyrant and i played a long set.

Do you happen to remember when was it/can post me the link. I would really appreciate it.