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Unpopular Opinion : If they increase dash speed and other movement options, the entire game will break and become unplayable.

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Did you even play it?

I actually agree that the slow walk speed and dash distance is because combos are already long without them, and they didn't want people finding crazy long combos with dashing and walking in, but the movement is still really bad right now. So either they scale down the combo damage or they just risk anime game length combos lmao. Because I am not playing MK1 for years where it feels like your character has multiple ball chains attached to their feet.
 

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
Which one sold more?
mkx was not loved for having good balance

you can go play those broken games you love so much have fun bye
Not sure why you are so hostile, this isn't gamefaqs or twitter

sales in this case mean little, that can come from a number of things, including guests or other forms of marketing

MKX might not have been as loved for its "balance" but neither was 11 for its "balance" which resulted in it being more boring and limited
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, sorry. Maybe someone has already expressed this opinion.
I think the problem is not in speed, but in the distance covered by dashes. Because now there is practically no point in dashing, you cover the same distance with a simple walk. And with a dash, you practically stay in place. What they really need to do is increase the distance. In this case, the dash speed can be left as it is. Since you can't cancel dash into any normal or special, it won't really help link combos. But it will help to punish any unsafe shit with a lot of pushbacks, like FB.
From watching, I agree with the dash distance. The overall pace of the matches seems fine. But the dashes seemed lacking. Manipulating dashes inside of combos would only increase the fun factor. You balance that by simply turning down the damage if need be. Also, dashing into attacks for a bit of "artificial" range is interesting in different ways, including giving you more ability to punish.

That said, from the dev's prospective, it's possible that this kind of stuff hampers the Kameo system or makes it redundant in certain situations. Hope not, because I'd like the dashes improved.
 

Sugarwatermixlegit

Bruce Campbell 4 MK!!!
Which one sold more?
mkx was not loved for having good balance

you can go play those broken games you love so much have fun bye
I understand what you mean, but sales are completely irrelevant on this topic. The vast majority of those sales are casual players who don’t give a shit about how the game feels, they like the fact Rambo can fight Sub Zero. And that isn’t a diss on casuals, it’s just I wouldn’t use sales to dictate how a community feels on a game.

Street Fighter 3 was a failure financially. The casual crowd hated it. But, to this day, the community often regards Third Strike as the best fighting game of all time.

Balance doesn’t change sales whatsoever. Not one casual player will look at tournaments or tier lists and be like “damn this is an unbalanced mess” and not buy the game.
 

slothsftw

Mortal
Not sure why you are so hostile, this isn't gamefaqs or twitter

sales in this case mean little, that can come from a number of things, including guests or other forms of marketing

MKX might not have been as loved for its "balance" but neither was 11 for its "balance" which resulted in it being more boring and limited
except it was praised for being the most balanced NRS game so that's incorrect

sales mean it was more successful and perhaps your little online hivemind of miserable mk fans aren't representative of how well the majority received it

now lets talk about MKX ugly af color palette, horrendous animations and mid roster shall we, omg I just LOVE non stop 50/50's so much fun and skill wooooooo
 

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
except it was praised for being the most balanced NRS game so that's incorrect

sales mean it was more successful and perhaps your little online hivemind of miserable mk fans aren't representative of how well the majority received it

now lets talk about MKX ugly af color palette, horrendous animations and mid roster shall we, omg I just LOVE non stop 50/50's so much fun and skill wooooooo
theres no question its the most balanced, but its also called very limited

so a negative came with that balance, and Boon heard it and has clearly moved away from it

so a loud enough voice reached him and they are making this one more opened, clearly not a "hivemind" whatever that means

if 11 were highly excepted as is, we wouldn't be going in this direction again

and it was already stated why mentioning sales is irrelevant.
 

slothsftw

Mortal
theres no question its the most balanced, but its also called very limited

so a negative came with that balance, and Boon heard it and has clearly moved away from it

so a loud enough voice reached him and they are making this one more opened, clearly not a "hivemind" whatever that means

if 11 were highly excepted as is, we wouldn't be going in this direction again

and it was already stated why mentioning sales is irrelevant.
if MKX was so well received they wouldn't have strayed away from it according to you

open combos doesn't = broken like mk9 does it? So why be obtuse?

and it was already stated why mentioning sales is relevant, mk11 was the more successful game
 

Kokoko

Somehow
Did you even play it?
I guess the question is for me. Yes, I played the stress test.
I think, the walking speed is ok, especially given the size of the screen. In addition, I'd like to see other characters and see if there will be grapplers and zoners in the game. Because walking speed will play a big role for them. Raise the speed now and it will immediately affect the balance for these characters. Now the speed is not high, but I don't see this as a problem. They really need to upgrade dashes. And I wouldn't mind changing jump-ins, although I'm not sure if they'll do that given where they're going with the mechanics.
Add extra distance to dashes and, for example, speed up their startup so that when you cancel them with "down", you can cover more distance. Imo, such a change will already speed up the game enough.
 

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
if MKX was so well received they wouldn't have strayed away from it according to you

open combos doesn't = broken like mk9 does it? So why be obtuse?

and it was already stated why mentioning sales is relevant, mk11 was the more successful game
it wasn't perfect

they went too far in the other direction, that didn't work

now we've moved again to get a better balance

and no, sales don't matter

1 will play more like 9, it'll sell more than 11

so then 1 will be the best
 

slothsftw

Mortal
People were crying MK11 was limited yet crying for Sonya to be nerfed?
it wasn't perfect

they went too far in the other direction, that didn't work

now we've moved again to get a better balance

and no, sales don't matter

1 will play more like 9, it'll sell more than 11

so then 1 will be the best
didn’t work according to who?
The main complaint was wanting more combos that doesn’t equal the entire game didn’t work and was a failure

your bias is clear but stop acting like YOUR personal preferences are representing the entire player base

And yea sales do matter, it’s a business and you’re trying hard to paint the best selling entry as a failure, clownery
 

Black Chapters

Legend of Legaia Main
People were crying MK11 was limited yet crying for Sonya to be nerfed?

didn’t work according to who?
The main complaint was wanting more combos that doesn’t equal the entire game didn’t work and was a failure

your bias is clear but stop acting like YOUR personal preferences are representing the entire player base

And yea sales do matter, it’s a business and you’re trying hard to paint the best selling entry as a failure, clownery
you said if MKX was so well received they wouldn't have strayed away from it

so since they strayed from 11, there was obvious issue just like X

both were a success, both needed better balance for enjoyment, no one said 11 failed

either way, agree to disagree
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
I guess the question is for me. Yes, I played the stress test.
I think, the walking speed is ok, especially given the size of the screen. In addition, I'd like to see other characters and see if there will be grapplers and zoners in the game. Because walking speed will play a big role for them. Raise the speed now and it will immediately affect the balance for these characters. Now the speed is not high, but I don't see this as a problem. They really need to upgrade dashes. And I wouldn't mind changing jump-ins, although I'm not sure if they'll do that given where they're going with the mechanics.
Add extra distance to dashes and, for example, speed up their startup so that when you cancel them with "down", you can cover more distance. Imo, such a change will already speed up the game enough.
Yeah, I would be fine with that. Maybe if they increase the speed of strings as well it won't feel so sluggish. And reduce blockstun.

My post was directed at Jynks just FYI ahaha. XD
 

spidey300

Warrior
did you just describe a negative as being better combos? just when i thought i've seen the worst of what nrs players can complain about. honestly that aligns with like what the minority complaints are. like people really complain about good or long combos. this is an assist based game. assist based games should have crazy combos. it's not even just the movement but the overall game speed of almost everything. htistop, blockstun, animations, etc. like there's massive potential here but things just feel sluggish. molasses.
 

GrandMasterson

The Netherrealm beckons
Who cares if it breaks a few combos? People are going to find broken shit after launch anyway, you might as well make the movement feel snappy while you iron out the kinks. I've had enough of MK feeling sluggish and unresponsive. The game feeling good to play in your hands should be priority one, everything else comes after that. NRS seems to be bringing a lot of features back that people wanted for 12, why not the movement too? This is such a weird hill to die on.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
This isn’t how the combos work in NRS games. The number of hits and the scaling aren’t related to each other. You can have a 30-hit combo that does 25%, and a 10-hit combo that does 37%.

‘Touch of death’ is determined by the scaling, not just by how many juggles you’re able to link together.
 

slothsftw

Mortal
you said if MKX was so well received they wouldn't have strayed away from it

so since they strayed from 11, there was obvious issue just like X

both were a success, both needed better balance for enjoyment, no one said 11 failed

either way, agree to disagree
No I said according to your logic, since that was the point YOU made -
“if 11 were highly excepted as is, we wouldn't be going in this direction again”

If X was so amazing they never would have changed it according to YOU

and mk11 was the bigger success
 

mrapchem

Apprentice
The combo system in MK1 is extremely fluid. Even an old muggle like myself was able to do awesome meterless combos and hit confirms into crazy stuff... and this is only the beginning. Once we have all the other moves available (kameos) there will be a really astounding amount of combo potential and more importantly fluidity.

I see a lot of people asking for movement speed increases of some kind. Something I personally think is not needed at all, but still lets just say they do chaneg this.

Any movement increases will make all those combos that are currently doing 30-40+ suddenly be able to link into even larger combos. I mean think about all those combos that just aren't quit linking.. and then you go.. man I wish the dash was faster or w/e... but what I think people are not thinking about is that this will mean the combo abilities will be so insane, and so over powered that there will be no way it can be balanced or even fun beyond one touch death.

I have a feeling the movement speed is actually by design to LIMIT the player from busting out 88% combos that carry from corner to corner, and I worry that the pressure to make the game "faster" will actually make the game a broken mess.
This is certainly within the realm of possibility. On the other hand, there were lots of dropped combos in all the footage that I witnessed that could have been prevented with some tweaks to the movement, dashes in particular.

I do think your concern about increased movement leading to excessive access to larger combos and all other haberdashery is quite valid, but I can't help but recall that the MK11 beta had the exact same issue where movement was more limited than the final game ended up being and it was all the better for it. If anything, certain characters like Baraka, Frost and Noob could have used additional movement buffs.

This is a delicate scenario because with 3 days of gameplay without a Practice mode, people found TOD combos - buffing the movement could indeed make those combos easier to perform. However, buffing the movement would not only make it easier for defenders to make people whiff, but also help alleviate a near-universal criticism of the game along with cutting down on excessively long animations in throws, strings and special moves.

Perhaps this issue is best addressed in stages: perhaps NRS's first move should be to shorten animations and move cooldowns without changing any dash properties and let players rock with that for a month and some change. If that's not enough, then they can increase the length of dashes. And then if that's not enough, then they allow us to cancel into block from our dashes so that we can dash-block again but shorten the distance of dashes back to Stress Test distance.

The movement does need to be handled delicately, but it does appear as though it needs to be handled. Leaving the movement as it would appear to be a big blemish on what is otherwise a fantastic game.
 
D

Deleted member 5032

Guest
I feel like anyone making complaints or requests about mechanics at this point is either brand spanking new to fighting games or they have some mental issues.
 

Kokoko

Somehow
I feel like anyone making complaints or requests about mechanics at this point is either brand spanking new to fighting games or they have some mental issues.
This is the way to call SonicFox, K&M, TekkenMaster, Waz and other top players people with mental issues.
People have tried the game and just express their opinion what they liked and what they would like to improve. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

chud_munson

Apprentice
I feel like anyone making complaints or requests about mechanics at this point is either brand spanking new to fighting games or they have some mental issues.
Huh? Ed Boon specifically requested feedback, to which basically every pro player and streamer gave the same criticism with regard to game/movement speed. This take is bad to the point that I'm wondering if there's something more specific you mean by "mechanics" that I'm not picking up on.
 
D

Deleted member 5032

Guest
This is the way to call SonicFox, K&M, TekkenMaster, Waz and other top players people with mental issues.
People have tried the game and just express their opinion what they liked and what they would like to improve. There's nothing wrong with that.
Huh? Ed Boon specifically requested feedback, to which basically every pro player and streamer gave the same criticism with regard to game/movement speed. This take is bad to the point that I'm wondering if there's something more specific you mean by "mechanics" that I'm not picking up on.
I'm not talking about criticism. Criticism is great and people should talk about what they did and didn't like. When I say "complaints or requests," I'm mostly talking about the players saying certain moves/characters are busted or useless.

We got to play, for 3 days, a version of the game that is very limited and most likely not very recent. Very little of what we experienced during the stress test will remain as-is during release. We also had no practice mode, so it was borderline impossible to adaquately lab the game. Players are calling characters broken just based on how effective they were when no one had labbed against them.