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UMK3 vs SF2

Which one takes more skill?

An ongoing debate between me and a freind of mine. I say UMK3 is much more deep and skillfull than Street Fighter 2, what say you? Please gives reasons.
 
Its very funny to make such an thread on an MK Board, MK will win here, SF will win on an SF2 board.

I would say SF2 because:

Throw system is harder to "master" in MK you just have to hold back, down-back and thats it about throwing knowledge, in SF2 you really have get into the whole tick throw thing and know the range of the throws ect.

Special Moves are "harder" to do in SF2 because many special moves are charge moves whitch simply need more planning and strategy to use proper.
Or think about the usage of Zangief 360 throw, there is not such "skillfull" specialmove input in UMK3.

General standart moves are more different in SF2, in UMK3 there is a basic setup for everyone, in SF2 there are more or less very different moves from the range and hitbox ect.
In UMK3 all female ninjas are the same, all Ninjas are the same and the rest has slightly different hitranges and boxes but nothing compared to SF2.

And last but not least, the competition is like 100x bigger in SF2 so you need more skill to stand a chance lol.

By the way, I am not a SF2 fanboy, i play it rarely, but facts are facts.
 
Im going with SF2 because of the sequencing of the buttons and overall gameplay but overall most definately Tekken! (Yoshimitsu)
 

summoning

Noncompliance to ASTM F 899-12 Standard
SF2 is a more skilled game , more combos, more possibilities, no repeat patterns

combos are not preprogrammed , usually most SF players who play mk use kung lao

Just my observations of being old and hanging out in the arcades all my life. Playing in mott street in China town in the 90's the mk machines for the most part were vacant , and constantly ripped on for lack of skill

Here is an example you can win in mk if you know the basics of a fighting game aka (Everyone has lost to a button pusher at least once) , you can not win in SF that way
 

Derek

Noob
SF3:3S is the most technically skilled 2D fighting game there is. Out of SF2 and UMK3 it's probably SF2.
 
Eh, I'm piss poor at SF2 with the 360 controller. I'm actually alot better at the arcade. Even then I'm not too great. Anyone know of a vid site with some good matches on em? Specifically ones with good Guiles?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
I have seen nothing yet that actually shows that SF2 is a deeper, higher skill required, or more complex game than UMK3. Complexity of performing moves is limited to player ability and not actual mechanics of game complexity. I saw a match where two Guiles in the newest incarnation threw over 300 Sonic booms in one 3 round match and only screwed up a couple times, in fact one round was entirely Sonic Boom zoning and no contact was made. The throw system in SF is actually very simple. There are times when you can be thrown, there are times when you can't. That's it. Learning this is key. In MK, you truly have to confuse your opponent to throw them consistently if you are in high level play. Tick throws are tricky, I will say that.

By the way, I am fully versed in the SF/Capcom fighting game franchise, I even know a bit about some of their other games, I am practically a professional at some of the Versus Series games as well.

If we go with just SF2, the answer is flat out no, SF2 is not anywhere near UMK3, and we'll start by just talking about the run button and block button and what they do to change game physics and overall strategy. The run button alone puts UMK3 over SF2. At high level, SF2 is basically a cross screen turtle fest of Guile vs Dhalsim, exactly like MKII is of Mileena vs Jax, cross screen projectile war, instead of erasing, you are avoiding.

When you get to the faster versions with the bosses, you have some more variety and some changed concepts for balancing, but it is still the same game, it's still played the same way.

Now, SSF2 is where it starts evening off, and I would say even Super Turbo is still a tough call. Super moves alone don't really do anything but add damage to critical points, they are just like heavy combos in UMK3, except you don't perform them on your own.

People say the combos aren't predetermined in SF2 series. Yes they are. There is a limit as to what you can do with the system, and certain situations will leave you with a best available combo at all times. You have to perform them differently, but in most situations, D+LKx3, or JK, D+HP, fireball, is not as complicated as Jax's 7 hit combo. Comboing different degrees of hits in SF2 series is extremely limited, it's based on a just frames system where you have to activate the next hit as soon as it is available, and there is a semi canceling system for comboing hits into specials, and it's extremely easy to learn. There are just frames all over the place in UMK3 which make certain juggles possible, there is also no juggling system until SSF2, and even that is terribly limited.

When you get into the alpha series there are certain steps back from Super Turbo, and I would say Alpha 2 approachs the same level of competition and depth. SFA3 is where it unquestionably surpasses UMK3.

SF3 3rd Strike is also unquestionably superior to UMK3, but I would liken 3S to UMK3 in terms of overall achievement and completion of gameplay per franchise, even though of course, more can be done with both.

So in the end, the only games that are definitively more complex than UMK3, are SFA3, and SF3:3S, there are a couple which are debatable like A2 and the other SF3's, and essentially the entire SF2 series is not comparable. The gameplay is very limited.
 
Physics in SF2 are rediculous. Like how most weak attacks can just simply cancel out a more powerful Move. Being able to throw people while they are in frames of movement that just do not make sense. For instance throwing Ken or Ryu while they are doing a Hurricane kick. Its broken. Its like Throwing Liu Kang's bicycle kick or something .(without it being air thrown)

EDIT: I have a friend who is one of the better SF2:CE players on Kaillera, He's been teaching me, since CE was my first SF2 on genesis and it was the last time i ever cared about the series! 90% of the time nothing makes sense to me, but its fun for a laugh.
 
Shock said:
I have seen nothing yet that actually shows that SF2 is a deeper, higher skill required, or more complex game than UMK3. Complexity of performing moves is limited to player ability and not actual mechanics of game complexity. I saw a match where two Guiles in the newest incarnation threw over 300 Sonic booms in one 3 round match and only screwed up a couple times, in fact one round was entirely Sonic Boom zoning and no contact was made. The throw system in SF is actually very simple. There are times when you can be thrown, there are times when you can't. That's it. Learning this is key. In MK, you truly have to confuse your opponent to throw them consistently if you are in high level play. Tick throws are tricky, I will say that.

By the way, I am fully versed in the SF/Capcom fighting game franchise, I even know a bit about some of their other games, I am practically a professional at some of the Versus Series games as well.

If we go with just SF2, the answer is flat out no, SF2 is not anywhere near UMK3, and we'll start by just talking about the run button and block button and what they do to change game physics and overall strategy. The run button alone puts UMK3 over SF2. At high level, SF2 is basically a cross screen turtle fest of Guile vs Dhalsim, exactly like MKII is of Mileena vs Jax, cross screen projectile war, instead of erasing, you are avoiding.

When you get to the faster versions with the bosses, you have some more variety and some changed concepts for balancing, but it is still the same game, it's still played the same way.

Now, SSF2 is where it starts evening off, and I would say even Super Turbo is still a tough call. Super moves alone don't really do anything but add damage to critical points, they are just like heavy combos in UMK3, except you don't perform them on your own.

People say the combos aren't predetermined in SF2 series. Yes they are. There is a limit as to what you can do with the system, and certain situations will leave you with a best available combo at all times. You have to perform them differently, but in most situations, D+LKx3, or JK, D+HP, fireball, is not as complicated as Jax's 7 hit combo. Comboing different degrees of hits in SF2 series is extremely limited, it's based on a just frames system where you have to activate the next hit as soon as it is available, and there is a semi canceling system for comboing hits into specials, and it's extremely easy to learn. There are just frames all over the place in UMK3 which make certain juggles possible, there is also no juggling system until SSF2, and even that is terribly limited.

When you get into the alpha series there are certain steps back from Super Turbo, and I would say Alpha 2 approachs the same level of competition and depth. SFA3 is where it unquestionably surpasses UMK3.

SF3 3rd Strike is also unquestionably superior to UMK3, but I would liken 3S to UMK3 in terms of overall achievement and completion of gameplay per franchise, even though of course, more can be done with both.

So in the end, the only games that are definitively more complex than UMK3, are SFA3, and SF3:3S, there are a couple which are debatable like A2 and the other SF3's, and essentially the entire SF2 series is not comparable. The gameplay is very limited.
Thanks for the thought out and well-written reply. I agree.

I've never played 3rd strike, but I used to play Capcom Vs SNK 2 alot and that's the only other 2D fighter I thought was more skillfull than UMK3.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
CvS2 has a lot of depth and variety, I didn't want to include that since it has SNK influences as well here and there. Modes of play and options are a big part of game depth. A lot of the Grooves in CvS2 are watered down versions of styles from other games.
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
I really really like CvS2 but I tend to lump it with MvC2. It has a huge cast, and it has the various grooves. It's almost like the variety in gameplay is an accidental result of how much stuff they piled in the game. It's not like 3s where the cast isn't gigantic but you can use pretty much everybody. It's not crafted in that way. It's more like MvC2 where there is a gigantic cast and a relatively small percentage of them can be used well in tourny play. That's what would keep me from including it with 3s and A3.

I always wished more characters would be used in high level play in CvS2. But, at this point, any gameplay updates would be totally frowned upon by the community. After the game's been out for a while, change becomes bad, updates become bad.
 

Kazlaz

Noob
sf2 hyper fighter the one they put on xbox arcade takes no skill what so ever most combos are 3 buttons but..

the new super turbo edition takes alot more skill

then sf3 is pretty fucking hard
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
MVC2 is fun but loaded with infinites.


That game also has a ton of infinites as well like say MKA, fun game but way too many glitches IMO.

Interesting SF3 comparison to UMK3, though similar to MK they messed up with 3D badly...but at least with MK, this franchise is still going pretty strong although I've noticed which each MK it seems to have a different fanbase.

Example, you have your MK2 fans. UMK3 fans, MKD fans, MK4(limited lol) MK:DA and MKA fans.

I've noticed very few love every MK game, but that's where people like me come in. I'm just a huge fanatic, I have the dragon tat to prove it and enjoy every MK game but UMK3 is among my top 3 favs for sure.

Anyway to anwer the question IMO, UMK3. A lot of the insane combos in UMK3 IMO take more skill, timing with precision with the juggles. Also the run=more aggresive game and less time to get space in a lot of situations, you have to think faster then say SF because there's no run move it's like the previous MK's prior to UMK3/MK3 where it's a "come to me game with turtling" the run button forces the player in MK3/UMK3 to think FAST. But as I said before, the juggles IMO are also another reason.

Example, take that Stryker thread recently. It's one of the easiest infinites yes indeed, however if timed wrong with your punches or not moving forward good enough you'll miss it. This is the case with a lot of characters I've noticed in UMK3 thru out the years.

With SF when I used to play it, it seemed more like a remember to do this move after that move kind of thing IMO. The juggle system is different. And Ryu is ridiculous in the older SF games from what I remember, he was really annoying lol.

SF3 is definitely more advanced then any previous SF for sure, the parry was an interesting concept in a 2D fighting game.

I'd say that's the only thing I'd love to see added to UMK3 actually a parry of some kind. It helps a hell whole of a lot in MKA compared to MKD let me tell ya. :)
 

RoGE

Noob
KillerMiller said:
Its very funny to make such an thread on an MK Board, MK will win here, SF will win on an SF2 board.
that may be true but these guys have some really interesting points for an mk bored, usauly in most MK boards you will see someone just flat out say UMK3 but these guys actually stat good reasons why.