Tech - Grandmaster Throw Into Clone - Stealth Buff?

[RM Ree]

Not sure if known or discussed thoroughly enough to be implemented yet, but here it goes.

Little background... Throw into clone tech typically omits the second, 10% hit from Sub-Zero's throw. This isn't a bad thing since in the past, the second hit from this throw has also activated an opponents auto-block anyway, causing them to block the clone SZ attempted to throw them into. In the lab today I've found that said interaction seems to have been altered, the auto-block has been removed, allowing for increased damage from a throw into clone. Throw is dealing the full 12% into an airborne freeze/ standing Sub-Zero, as opposed to the old 2% into a grounded freeze/ knocked down, tech roll Sub-Zero.

• Old and Busted: Throw > clone freeze (tech roll), run b2, 242, b33d4, clone - 25%
• New Hotness: Forward throw > clone freeze, NJP, s4, s1, 123 xx slide - 33% -or- ...NJP, s4 xx x-ray - 45% (that's half health off a throw).

Downsides... the only way I know to consistently set this up right now is s1 (hit) xx clone, run up forward throw. Clearly not practical, but I'm sure there are other methods as it simply seems spacing dependent. Also, there's no safe clone after this guy unless the opponent has no meter. So if this is new and interesting, would anyone want to help look into this a bit more with me? We might be able to find something awesome and add another layer to the Grandmaster's game.

 

[just_2swift]

Not bhad not bhad at all lol

 

[RM Ree]

Breathing hitboxes make this kind of a nightmare to test. I've been able to mitigate some of the random factor by jailing the opponent with a jump in punch, then testing the normal/ strings on hit and block. I have yet to test the different combo enders, different types of hurt boxes and tic throw set ups. Right now these are the most consistent, repeatable set ups. More to come.

On hit:
- Stand 1 xx clone

On block:
- f1 xx clone/ ex clone
- b12 xx clone/ ex clone

 

[xA1SinceDay1x]

"nerf sub zero" thread impending lol

 

[ChaosTheory]

Does it not work the same way as ending in f1,2~Clone and then doing f3,3/1,2,3/Slide into Clone?

Or will that setup make the first part of the forward throw connect with Clone the same as a back throw or something?

 

[RM Ree]

Does it not work the same way as ending in f1,2~Clone and then doing f3,3/1,2,3/Slide into Clone?

Or will that setup make the first part of the forward throw connect with Clone the same as a back throw or something?

It seems that the mechanics of Sub-Zero's throw are such that the damage doesn't apply until the throw is fully complete. F33 xx clone, run up f-throw leaves the clone barely too close, and the throw is broken just before the animation finishes. This freezes the opponent in what looks like an airborne state (which is odd as they're actually grounded) and floors SZ resulting in a typical 2% throw into clone.

 

[boba_buster]

I had a clone stay out for a whole match jus now on the beta , stayed thru round two as well lol

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

Not sure if known or discussed thoroughly enough to be implemented yet, but here it goes.

Little background... Throw into clone tech typically omits the second, 10% hit from Sub-Zero's throw. This isn't a bad thing since in the past, the second hit from this throw has also activated an opponents auto-block anyway, causing them to block the clone SZ attempted to throw them into. In the lab today I've found that said interaction seems to have been altered, the auto-block has been removed, allowing for increased damage from a throw into clone. Throw is dealing the full 12% into an airborne freeze/ standing Sub-Zero, as opposed to the old 2% into a grounded freeze/ knocked down, tech roll Sub-Zero.

• Old and Busted: Throw > clone freeze (tech roll), run b2, 242, b33d4, clone - 25%
• New Hotness: Forward throw > clone freeze, NJP, s4, s1, 123 xx slide - 33% -or- ...NJP, s4 xx x-ray - 45% (that's half health off a throw).

Downsides... the only way I know to consistently set this up right now is s1 (hit) xx clone, run up forward throw. Clearly not practical, but I'm sure there are other methods as it simply seems spacing dependent. Also, there's no safe clone after this guy unless the opponent has no meter. So if this is new and interesting, would anyone want to help look into this a bit more with me? We might be able to find something awesome and add another layer to the Grandmaster's game.

It's cool but you have to sacrifice clone placement to do it.

 

[RM Ree]

It's cool but you have to sacrifice clone placement to do it.

True but... This isn't exactly application so much as it's proof of concept. In time, with help from the community, we'll figure out a way to make this work.

 

[SM StarGazer]

True but... This isn't exactly application so much as it's proof of concept. In time, with help from the community, we'll figure out a way to make this work.

You mean figure out a way to get it nerfed right. Yeahh I heard right.

 

[RM Ree]

You mean figure out a way to get it nerfed right. Yeahh I heard right.

This doesn't feel like it breaks him or anything. Of all the OP stuff in the game, this is probably pretty low on the list of things that need normalizing.

 

[boba_buster]

If you do f12 after the throw freeze wouldn't that let u safely clone?

 

[_xFriction]

shoutouts for the MiB reference

 

[Konqrr]

I noticed this as well but I didn't play GM Sub much before the beta so I didn't know that previously the clone was blockable.

 

[RM Ree]

@boba_buster yeah you're right, if you decided to do a different combo, you could totally get a safe clone with f12.

@Konqrr that shocked me a bit too. Previously, the opponent would take 12%, be frozen, but be able to block the follow up despite the capture state. It was like a ghetto standing reset from the throw. I think I made a thread about throw into clone options way back that mentioned the pre-patch interaction. Tech had me intrigued after I saw Madzin abuse it vs Foxy Grandpa.

 

[crosshair271]

@boba_buster yeah you're right, if you decided to do a different combo, you could totally get a safe clone with f12.

@Konqrr that shocked me a bit too. Previously, the opponent would take 12%, be frozen, but be able to block the follow up despite the capture state. It was like a ghetto standing reset from the throw. I think I made a thread about throw into clone options way back that mentioned the pre-patch interaction. Tech had me intrigued after I saw Madzin abuse it vs Foxy Grandpa.

I tested it on my PC version. Autoblock enabled and it comboed. It's not really beneficial but players should practice it because it is a 3rd scenario for a combo followup. Forward, Back, Forward 12%.

 

[RM Ree]

I tested it on my PC version. Autoblock enabled and it comboed. It's not really beneficial but players should practice it because it is a 3rd scenario for a combo followup. Forward, Back, Forward 12%.

Simply put, a 3 touch kill character is better than a 4 touch one. Being able to set this up enables that for Sub, meterless and off of throws. I see that as beneficial. I don't see how a player couldn't honestly.

 

[Ze Dingo]

What about F4~clone then run in, to set it up?

 

[RM Ree]

Nah, the clone is too far away for forward throw to freeze.

As a point of reference, look at Kung Lao's front foot in relation to the ice clone's front foot. Lao's toe is under the clone's instep. That's the distance to look for.

Please keep in mind that right now, the set ups listed are there for consistency sake, making this easy to recreate so we're all on the same page. Combo enders to find proper clone spacing and tic throw set ups afterwards will determine how useful this ends up being.

 

[crosshair271]

Nah, the clone is too far away for forward throw to freeze.

As a point of reference, look at Kung Lao's front foot in relation to the ice clone's front foot. Lao's toe is under the clone's instep. That's the distance to look for.

Please keep in mind that right now, the set ups listed are there for consistency sake, making this easy to recreate so we're all on the same page. Combo enders to find proper clone spacing and tic throw set ups afterwards will determine how useful this ends up being.

I felt that way because I couldn't find better damage than 2% throw into Klone with a F12 setup ender. It does do damage if ending in a 123xxSlide but if I do 2% into a Slide ender it will do more.

 

[skater11]

No way in hell should a character get nearly 50% off an unblockable (throw). Hope this doesn't stay. A 50/50 throw on top of that. This is bullshit

 

[Marzmadness93]

Gm sub is such a cheap character

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

True but... This isn't exactly application so much as it's proof of concept. In time, with help from the community, we'll figure out a way to make this work.

Maybe. We'll see.

No way in hell should a character get nearly 50% off an unblockable (throw). Hope this doesn't stay. A 50/50 throw on top of that. This is bullshit

A throw is a throw not an unblockable. It's called teching a throw. It's called neutral ducking. It's called an njp. It's called learning to play the game before you moan.

 

[RM Ree]

No way in hell should a character get nearly 50% off an unblockable (throw). Hope this doesn't stay. A 50/50 throw on top of that. This is bullshit

I understand the concern, but it does cost all 3 bars to do that damage. It's technically unblockable, throws fundamentally are. But it's not inescapable.

Aftershock Tremor has something very similar iirc. He can combo, set up ex ground thumps into a throw, and if successful deal almost 100% damage off the reset.