Belial
Kombatant
Okay people. I feel better now and I want to say some things about Grodd. It originally would've been put into GG sub-forum, but i felt the topic at hand is bigger that that. If you like my longposts (Im sure you do), sit comfortably and enjoy 
After much deliberation, I found that he probably isnt worse than pre-patch. He might be even better than pre-patch. Still he is a bottom tier character that is actually very misleading b/c unlike other bottom tier material he actually has sick stuff. That sick stuff led me to believe he could actually be top tier or high tier at some point of my games.
I've played (and went toe-to-toe) with some of the best players in the world such as Foxy, SharkTeeth, Vladee7R, Ed_Napier, Dock, Irish Mantis, UndeadJim and many many others. I lost badly at some points but came back stronger and always tried to improve my game further to match their skills that also led me to believe that Grodd can be played at top level if even I - the new player could fight on equal footing with those NRS-monsters.
So the reason I dont think so anymore is because I took time to analyze game design at take a look at general tools across the board.
If you've been watching my posts, I made a long one during Inj beta-testing https://testyourmight.com/threads/what-is-wrong-with-injustice-2-and-nrs-games.62914/
You need to look at section 4 for further refenece. (Also Im pretty sure NRS took notes of my posts, b/c some of their design did change for better(way better) in Inj 2)
First of all, the character strength is determined by meta he exists in. Its not the tools itself that make character good or bad, its the enviroment, other characters. For example If Grodd had tools that other characters dont or had better tools in comparision to other characters, then, even as he is now, he could be top1 easily.
Another evaluation happens after matchups kick in. For example in Tekken 5 on release there were top 3 characters in that order: Steeve, Bryan, Nina. Bryan was extremely OP at this point and could easily decimate 90% of the cast. But he was never played. Why? He had terrible MU vs Steeve. When your top 2 character has awful MU vs top 1 character that removes him from meta. Even if Grodd was extremely strong at this point, he would still be devastated by Aquaman (the more I think the more I consider 1-9) and thus would be a terrible tournament choice.
All said lets get to Grodd and why he was nerfed.
From NRS perspective they design characters with a role in mind. For example CW is a defencive character that really shines when she can get you in the corner. The reason why they hesitated to nerf her damage so much is because it doesnt fall into a defencive character playstyle, that has to wait to elaborate on enemy mistakes. So they nerfed things that rely to offence - like walk speed or J2.
The reason behind FS buff is because he is a "control/zoning" character that thrives off its trait. His gameplan was to hold enemy back until trait is ready (thus the puddle control that makes it so hard and scary to move). So logical thing to do was to buff his trait. b3 was buffed for the same reason, to improve his ability to keep enemy afraid to come, but ticking trait timer would also force them to come.
Etc etc.
So with that said, Grodd was built as a defencive powerhouse, that could take huge advantage from opponents mistakes but didnt have much to really open them up
- He has insane short range normals, but nothing that could really be used offencively, except 22 - that is exactly why this string had gap - it was never meant to be used as an offencive tool(that is why its + frames got nerfed in the patch).
- He has sick damage, probably best in the game, enpowered further by restands (at the very least you get 30/30/30 ,mixup between throw/shimmy/anti-backdash after restands). If anything His B3 does obnoxious dmg (50% easily)
- He has multi armored moves
- He has TOD vortex from trait to bring damage even further
- His wakeups are probably the best in the game or close to it (considering his ability to SC wakeup)
The only aspect he really lacks in defence department is his backdash, which is awkward and probably b/c of his short range.
What Grodd doesnt have is offence and mobility. These aspects of him are really bad compared to everyone else. Grodd dashes are mediocre, his jumps are worst in the game in terms of using it for spacng, his leaps are slow. By the way his leaps are also the only form of offence he has, so anybody looking to play Grodd now should focus on spacing jumps, leaps and leap cancels to actually make leaps land (much like Oakiess does).
Grodd has no mixups and no threats in neutral (df3 is his only tool here), its not that he cant put pressure - leaps , jumps, df3 and d1 and SC in neutral all put enough strain on opponent, but most of that is either risky (making it unreliable strategy in torunament) or isnt rewarding enough (df3 deals 7% with a chance to get launched for 30% into setups)
Finally we come to point 4 of my post I linked above. It happens so that NRS designs their games with huge empasis on offence. This of all things allow to make comeback in a game that has chip damage and things like first hit bonus. Its because if you can take a lifebar off a good read. Now Grodd has the damage, but doesnt have offence. As such he doesnt have any way to force his game upon the opponent and "feel" how he plays. If you're CW you can safely check you opponent with many moves. See how he blocks, spaces your moves, adapt to it. Even with Flash opponent has to consider his jumps and be scared of close range mixup. With Grodd your "check" option is leap that is too much to bet on. Grodd has to defend well to extract that crazy damage but you cant defend well until you get information about your opponent, and your best way to extract information is by atacking. "Best defence is offfence" - saying as old as it goes. It is true.
Finally Grodd damage as impressive as it is, is in fact nothing out of ordinary. When a lot of characters can pressure you to death and kill you on oki it hardly matters how you do it - with one combo into vortex or just wallgame crazyness of CW or Flash. And Batman or FS can vortex you just as well.
So to sum it up Grodd just doesnt have the right tools to be played at tournaments well. On top of it he has awful matchups that cement his place in casual segment of the meta. If any buffs were to come his way, those buffs would come in defencive department again and wouldnt solve his key problem (also no amount of defence will help in Aqua MU). That is why he will never be good.
Before patch he had some offence from SC-pressure, but in fact had no significant way to set it up. It was basically after vortex where you throw them and get some KD pressure. NRS took that away in exchange for an easier wakeup SC (defence) and gap removal of 22 (defence) and d1 MC (defence). This solidfies his position as a defencive mosnter. Losing SC pressure its not that much of a deal b/c to open enemy up with a throw you need superman or adam mobility to get it going, else it is a marginal option with limited use, which what happened to Grodd pre-patch.
After much deliberation, I found that he probably isnt worse than pre-patch. He might be even better than pre-patch. Still he is a bottom tier character that is actually very misleading b/c unlike other bottom tier material he actually has sick stuff. That sick stuff led me to believe he could actually be top tier or high tier at some point of my games.
I've played (and went toe-to-toe) with some of the best players in the world such as Foxy, SharkTeeth, Vladee7R, Ed_Napier, Dock, Irish Mantis, UndeadJim and many many others. I lost badly at some points but came back stronger and always tried to improve my game further to match their skills that also led me to believe that Grodd can be played at top level if even I - the new player could fight on equal footing with those NRS-monsters.
So the reason I dont think so anymore is because I took time to analyze game design at take a look at general tools across the board.
If you've been watching my posts, I made a long one during Inj beta-testing https://testyourmight.com/threads/what-is-wrong-with-injustice-2-and-nrs-games.62914/
You need to look at section 4 for further refenece. (Also Im pretty sure NRS took notes of my posts, b/c some of their design did change for better(way better) in Inj 2)
First of all, the character strength is determined by meta he exists in. Its not the tools itself that make character good or bad, its the enviroment, other characters. For example If Grodd had tools that other characters dont or had better tools in comparision to other characters, then, even as he is now, he could be top1 easily.
Another evaluation happens after matchups kick in. For example in Tekken 5 on release there were top 3 characters in that order: Steeve, Bryan, Nina. Bryan was extremely OP at this point and could easily decimate 90% of the cast. But he was never played. Why? He had terrible MU vs Steeve. When your top 2 character has awful MU vs top 1 character that removes him from meta. Even if Grodd was extremely strong at this point, he would still be devastated by Aquaman (the more I think the more I consider 1-9) and thus would be a terrible tournament choice.
All said lets get to Grodd and why he was nerfed.
From NRS perspective they design characters with a role in mind. For example CW is a defencive character that really shines when she can get you in the corner. The reason why they hesitated to nerf her damage so much is because it doesnt fall into a defencive character playstyle, that has to wait to elaborate on enemy mistakes. So they nerfed things that rely to offence - like walk speed or J2.
The reason behind FS buff is because he is a "control/zoning" character that thrives off its trait. His gameplan was to hold enemy back until trait is ready (thus the puddle control that makes it so hard and scary to move). So logical thing to do was to buff his trait. b3 was buffed for the same reason, to improve his ability to keep enemy afraid to come, but ticking trait timer would also force them to come.
Etc etc.
So with that said, Grodd was built as a defencive powerhouse, that could take huge advantage from opponents mistakes but didnt have much to really open them up
- He has insane short range normals, but nothing that could really be used offencively, except 22 - that is exactly why this string had gap - it was never meant to be used as an offencive tool(that is why its + frames got nerfed in the patch).
- He has sick damage, probably best in the game, enpowered further by restands (at the very least you get 30/30/30 ,mixup between throw/shimmy/anti-backdash after restands). If anything His B3 does obnoxious dmg (50% easily)
- He has multi armored moves
- He has TOD vortex from trait to bring damage even further
- His wakeups are probably the best in the game or close to it (considering his ability to SC wakeup)
The only aspect he really lacks in defence department is his backdash, which is awkward and probably b/c of his short range.
What Grodd doesnt have is offence and mobility. These aspects of him are really bad compared to everyone else. Grodd dashes are mediocre, his jumps are worst in the game in terms of using it for spacng, his leaps are slow. By the way his leaps are also the only form of offence he has, so anybody looking to play Grodd now should focus on spacing jumps, leaps and leap cancels to actually make leaps land (much like Oakiess does).
Grodd has no mixups and no threats in neutral (df3 is his only tool here), its not that he cant put pressure - leaps , jumps, df3 and d1 and SC in neutral all put enough strain on opponent, but most of that is either risky (making it unreliable strategy in torunament) or isnt rewarding enough (df3 deals 7% with a chance to get launched for 30% into setups)
Finally we come to point 4 of my post I linked above. It happens so that NRS designs their games with huge empasis on offence. This of all things allow to make comeback in a game that has chip damage and things like first hit bonus. Its because if you can take a lifebar off a good read. Now Grodd has the damage, but doesnt have offence. As such he doesnt have any way to force his game upon the opponent and "feel" how he plays. If you're CW you can safely check you opponent with many moves. See how he blocks, spaces your moves, adapt to it. Even with Flash opponent has to consider his jumps and be scared of close range mixup. With Grodd your "check" option is leap that is too much to bet on. Grodd has to defend well to extract that crazy damage but you cant defend well until you get information about your opponent, and your best way to extract information is by atacking. "Best defence is offfence" - saying as old as it goes. It is true.
Finally Grodd damage as impressive as it is, is in fact nothing out of ordinary. When a lot of characters can pressure you to death and kill you on oki it hardly matters how you do it - with one combo into vortex or just wallgame crazyness of CW or Flash. And Batman or FS can vortex you just as well.
So to sum it up Grodd just doesnt have the right tools to be played at tournaments well. On top of it he has awful matchups that cement his place in casual segment of the meta. If any buffs were to come his way, those buffs would come in defencive department again and wouldnt solve his key problem (also no amount of defence will help in Aqua MU). That is why he will never be good.
Before patch he had some offence from SC-pressure, but in fact had no significant way to set it up. It was basically after vortex where you throw them and get some KD pressure. NRS took that away in exchange for an easier wakeup SC (defence) and gap removal of 22 (defence) and d1 MC (defence). This solidfies his position as a defencive mosnter. Losing SC pressure its not that much of a deal b/c to open enemy up with a throw you need superman or adam mobility to get it going, else it is a marginal option with limited use, which what happened to Grodd pre-patch.
