The State of Zoning and Overall Strategy in Mortal Kombat 1

[CrimsonShadow]

You mention SF6, but that is just, a bad example. Characters like Guile, JP, and Sim have MUs where they absolutely brutalize characters by zoning them out to victory. MK1 has nothing like Sim vs Zangief or Guile vs Lily, etc. But in reverse, you also have offensive God's like Ken with MUs where characters are equally brutalized.

Imo this is more due to not having a character like Zangief, rather than something that applies SF6 as a whole. Because a MU like that isn't reflective of 99% of the MUs in SF6. It's the oddball out of the entire cast.

The zoning in SF6 is overwhelmingly not like that of anime games. It's just a very different design philosophy. And in SF6, you'd be hard-pressed to find a lot of matches between the top players where someone is defeated with just zoning. The current best JPs in the world have to play up-close just as much as fullscreen.

This is the best JP in the world facing off against a big-body character. If we ask how much of this match is actually fullscreen zoning or looks like Injustice, it's very little. And that's by design.

If Kakeru depended on just sitting back and zoning the top players out, he'd never make a top 8, because the game's mechanics just don't allow you to play that way most of the time at that level.

If you want another example, here's a match with a bit more zoning. It starts off more fullscreen, but it takes Mago all of one dash or one jump to get in, and then the rest of the set is played point blank or at footsie range. This is SF6 in a nutshell.

In fact, I've seen a lot of top player MK1 sets this week with a ton more zoning then the majority of Kakeru's JP sets. Including this one. Compare how many rounds here are won by a projectile:

 

[M2Dave]

I have an antizoning playstyle so i have to ask, what is it like in premier zoner mirror matches? That seems like a good judge for whether a move is balanced, Deadshot mirrors mustve been not fun

Between characters like Liu Kang, Reiko, and Shang Tsung, the character with Sub Zero as the kameo wins the zoning war, ultimately forcing both players to pick Sub Zero or play more of a neutral game. In the Sub Zero kameo meta, Reiko has the advantage because of the multiple hits of the stars.

Stryker's arrest counts as a physical attack and grabs characters out of the ice armor, but I am not convinced that this property makes Stryker worth choosing over Sub Zero.

 

[SaltShaker]

Imo this is more due to not having a character like Zangief, rather than something that applies SF6 as a whole. Because a MU like that isn't reflective of 99% of the MUs in SF6. It's the oddball out of the entire cast.

The zoning in SF6 is overwhelmingly not like that of anime games. It's just a very different design philosophy. And in SF6, you'd be hard-pressed to find a lot of matches between the top players where someone is defeated with just zoning. The current best JPs in the world have to play up-close just as much as fullscreen.

This is the best JP in the world facing off against a big-body character. If we ask how much of this match is actually fullscreen zoning or looks like Injustice, it's very little. And that's by design.

If Kakeru depended on just sitting back and zoning the top players out, he'd never make a top 8, because the game's mechanics just don't allow you to play that way most of the time at that level.

If you want another example, here's a match with a bit more zoning. It starts off more fullscreen, but it takes Mago all of one dash or one jump to get in, and then the rest of the set is played point blank or at footsie range. This is SF6 in a nutshell.

In fact, I've seen a lot of top player MK1 sets this week with a ton more zoning then the majority of Kakeru's JP sets. Including this one. Compare how many rounds here are won by a projectile:

You picked two MUs that are really hard hahaha! Juri??? Come on Crim LOL! I can't tell you how much I have ranted how much I hate that MU. I'd pull up some godlike SF6 Zoning right now but I'm about to drive. JP and Guile and Sim vs characters like Lily, Manon, and Gief are much more representing hard zoning than that. You get those characters in burnout+full screen and it's pretty much round over sometimes. That's what I mean when I say there's nothing like that in MK1 currently. Those three also however are the "grappler" archetypes, so their weakness is very well defined in zoning. Whereas in MK1 no one's weakness is zoning. It doesn't really feel like "types" are too well defined in MK1 compared to the overall meta of "bash your face in better than you bash mine in" lol.

I'll check out that vid when I get back though. I think I mentioned earlier but Foxy playing Shang/Lao was what originally made me pick up low hat with Sindel. It's the only thing I've seen that has some somewhat OG NRS zoning to it. And I do understand not wanting to bring back the "I won and you didn't even reach half screen lolz", but if it's not coming back then I think the game will have to tone down some of the uber oppression that safe setup into 60% 1 bar can do to make up the difference.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

 

[Pan1cMode]

I’ve said it earlier but I actually mean it; Li Mei + Kung Lao has pretty decent projectile zoning.

It also helps that up close your pressure and 50/50s are quite strong.

I think others might find this combination to be quite fun, particularly if you enjoy projectile zoning and controlling space by filling the screen.

 

[zerosebaz]

I just want to say I find weird that both Millena and Reptile had their projectile ranges reduced to less than full-screen.

 

[SaltShaker]

Now do Forever King Batman against the Top Tier second best zoner in the game:

I’ve said it earlier but I actually mean it; Li Mei + Kung Lao has pretty decent projectile zoning.

It also helps that up close your pressure and 50/50s are quite strong.

I think others might find this combination to be quite fun, particularly if you enjoy projectile zoning and controlling space by filling the screen.

Because you said it twice I'll check this out tonight. Haven't seen it used yet.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Now do Forever King Batman against the Top Tier second best zoner in the game:

Because you said it twice I'll check this out tonight. Haven't seen it used yet.

Foxy plays almost exclusively Li Mei + Kung Lao. You can check out his previous twitch vods for match footage.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

JP and Guile and Sim vs characters like Lily, Manon, and Gief are much more representing hard zoning than that.

I mean, we can keep posting matches. Manon vs. JP? Sure

Looks not much different than any of the previous matches (90% fought at footsie range, or point-blank). So no matter what, we're going to keep coming back to the fact that "zoning people out" is something that will only happen in a tiny, tiny number of matchups in SF. There is far more zoning in an average match of MK1 vs. a zoner than most of the strongest zoners in SF6.

This is why I said that it's not about zoning, it's just Zangief's character design. There's no character like that in MK1.

 

[SaltShaker]

I mean, we can keep posting matches. Manon vs. JP? Sure

Looks not much different than any of the previous matches (90% fought at footsie range, or point-blank). So no matter what, we're going to keep coming back to the fact that "zoning people out" is something that will only happen in a tiny, tiny number of matchups in SF. There is far more zoning in an average match of MK1 vs. a zoner than most of the strongest zoners in SF6.

This is why I said that it's not about zoning, it's just Zangief's character design. There's no character like that in MK1.

There's no way you follow SF6 close enough to make that statement. You of all people should know nitpicking matches doesn't make a point. It has nothing to do with Zangief or one-offs It's some characters win condition in SF6 to use buttons/space control/zoning to win some MUs.

But, even something as obvious as EVO where Kakeru, one of the Top players in SF6, knocking NuckleDu to Losers, one of the Top players in SF6, by space control and zoning against Cammy, a Top Tier Rushdown plus-frames monster and unanimously agreed bottom 2 JP MU, is the type of set that does not exist in MK1. You will never see two players at the level of Kakeru/NuckleDu in MK1 play a bad MU for the zoner like JP/Cammy and the MU is won by pure space control and zoning 90% of the match. Because that meta isn't currently in MK1.

Or even Nemo, another Top 8 Evo finalist, being dominated by pure buttons, space control, and projectile dominance like this:

This type of play just isn't available in MK1. If it was MK1 Guile would have been 80% Rushdown here not 20% Rushdown. And it seems like that's by design considering how characters are built. Tbh it doesn't even seem that comparable as MK1 seems to have a very clear win condition for most MUs.

 

[M2Dave]

JP and Guile are meta-defining characters in Street Fighter 6. Mortal Kombat 1 lacks such equivalent characters in its current meta.

Very silly discussion and argument.

Zoning neither sucks in Mortal Kombat 1 yet neither is it very good. The game's meta is exclusively controlled by rush down characters.

 

[ismael4790]

Although I haven't trained this game nearly as much as I did with mkx (the one I played the most and by using a zoning character), and have no plans of staying for a long time in mk1, I will say I feel zoning is definitely some levels below rushdown in this meta.

Like some people pointed out before, the damage output most characters have make the task of the zoner (which is slowly draining the opponent's life keeping the distance) much more difficult because a single mistake can ruin a long streak of good decisions and turn the tables too fast. So zoning seems more like a complement rather than a viable strategy on its own. This could change at any moment with the addition of a new character but that's how it looks now. Also, single hitting safe armored moves seem to be extremely rare, so they are also out of the equation as a get off me tool for a zoning gameplan.

On top of it, it should be a clue about nrs intentions regarding zoning that they designed a kameo (a fun one, btw) that literally gives you the power to completely ignore projectiles as an automatic counter for any character who wants to establish a game plan around projectile zoning, so anyone who doesn't even want to deal with the "annoying" strategy can feel at home.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Lets see a projectile only KOTH, if you strike or throw you lose, no sub armor, teleports or projectile parries.

 

[Wigy]

God I love the state of zoning.

Jizzing my pants

 

[NHDR]

Zoning seems to be good enough in this game to be a viable playstyle, though based on the mechanics I don't think its possible to win a match just by spamming fireballs. Which is okay because that hasn't been truly possible since SF2 and MK9 (and honestly, SF2 zoning was ultra powerful and you could lose a match just by guessing wrong on opening, and MK9 was notorious with Kabal instant-airing most of the cast to an 8-2 matchup).

EDIT: That being said, rushdown is the clear winner in this meta. Pick a rushdown character, pair the character with Cyrax, and profit.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

There's no way you follow SF6 close enough to make that statement. You of all people should know nitpicking matches doesn't make a point. It has nothing to do with Zangief or one-offs It's some characters win condition in SF6 to use buttons/space control/zoning to win some MUs.

Definitely not nitpicking here. The only thing I filtered was making sure that the matches were recent, rather than from 3 months ago when people didn't understand how to play against JP and didn't know matchups. Other than that, they're some of the first current matches with the best representatives of their characters that come up on Youtube, and there are plenty more that are similar.

But if you have a bunch of recent matches of Kakeru playing against the top players in the SF6 and zoning them out, feel free to post them.

This type of play just isn't available in MK1. If it was MK1 Guile would have been 80% Rushdown here not 20% Rushdown. And it seems like that's by design considering how characters are built. Tbh it doesn't even seem that comparable as MK1 seems to have a very clear win condition for most MUs.

This is exactly how Ashrah plays. She sits at midscreen, zones and throws stuff at you with the Kameo, and then when you try to advance, she uses her great buttons to hit you as you're coming in, or AA you. Her entire playstyle is designed for space control, so I'm not sure what you mean.

We just watched Tigerzz do that to Pulse less than a week ago, and Pulse even had the Sub Zero Kameo equipped. It didn't matter.

It's also how Kenshi plays until he opens you up and has a chance to bring out Sento. He hovers around midscreen or fullscreen, zones and uses the spirit normals to interrupt you as you attempt to get in.

And it's how Shang plays as well. And Liu.

 

[SaltShaker]

Definitely not nitpicking here. The only thing I filtered was making sure that the matches were recent, rather than from 3 months ago when people didn't understand how to play against JP and didn't know matchups. Other than that, they're some of the first current matches that come up on Youtube and there are plenty more that are similar.

But if you have a bunch of recent matches of Kakeru playing against the top players in the SF6 and zoning them out, feel free to post them.

And since you mentioned NuckleDu and Guile vs. Manon, here's NuckleDu vs iDom, which doesn't look any different from the matches above. iDom just walks forward for 3 seconds and he's in, and then Du/Guile spends 90% of the match with Manon in his face:

If we did that, then it would be just you posting more vids of "no zoning", and me posting more vids of "but look at this zoning" like the references above, and then you saying "but wait here's more not zoning" and me saying "no you wait what about this even better zoning". There's no point in that other than you can find videos where zoning didn't happen and I can find videos of Higuchi, Kakeru, Mr. Crimson, etc where zoning was the predominant method of the match.

However, none of that changes the fact that in MK1, there are actually no videos played like the Higuchi set I posted or the Kakeru/NuckleDu match I referenced. That is the point. Of course they have matches where they rushdown, just like they have matches where they predominantly zone. Guile is like, the epitome of zoning and I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue otherwise. You're evading that point by saying "but look at this rushdown in this vid", without actually acknowledging that MK1 does not have win condition characters that can win by mostly buttons/Space/zoning like in the matches I am referencing. I said it earlier, but there's no Cetrion in this game, and nothing remotely close to her.

All in all, it's very simple. Find me a set that plays remotely close to the spacing and zoning of the matches I referenced in MK1. Find me a set where I can say "wow Cetrion is back that's my new main now". I'd love to see that video. After all, since there's much more zoning in MK1 as you stated it should be very easy to highlight.

OR, you can just skip all of that and make it easier by answering which character has Cetrion's play style. Whichever works.

EDIT: LOL you reposted the video I added with that master class of zoning and space control by Higuchi in that set LOL. I rest my case. #Fatality

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You're evading that point by saying "but look at this rushdown in this vid", without actually acknowledging that MK1 does not have win condition characters that can win by mostly buttons/Space/zoning like in the matches I am referencing.

Again, here is Tigerzz doing exactly this to Pulse, one week ago. Even with the Sub Kameo equipped he still struggled against it.

Buttons/space/zoning is precisely what Ashrah was designed to do. Throw stuff at you, and either catch you with the projectile, or hit you with F2/AA you when you try to get past it.

In fact, in his guide at two minutes in, Tigerzz literally says her projectile is Ashrah's main tool and "it is probably the best space control tool in the entire game" and he describes exactly how he plays:

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

I mostly play characters that can punish fireballs pretty easily so pretty much the only time I use fireballs is a meaty after a knock down. Wave dashing makes it pretty easy to advance against most zoners.

 

[SaltShaker]

Again, here is Tigerzz doing exactly this to Pulse, one week ago. Even with the Sub Kameo equipped he still struggled against it.

Buttons/space/zoning is precisely what Ashrah was designed to do. Throw stuff at you, hit you with F2 or AA you when you try to get in.

In fact, in his guide at two minutes in, Tigerzz literally says "The main tool Ashrah has is her projectile, it is probably the best space control tool in the game" and he describes exactly how he plays:

Finally NRS videos lol. But, funny enough, that's the "peak" of zoning in MK1. I'm glad you posted that, because I agree with you there, that's what zoning looks like in MK1. The "best zoning" in the current game is a fraction of zoning in most NRS games.

For example, what I am and some others are referring to, is NRS patented zoning. The real deal zoning. The zoning's zoning. Win condition zoning. Like this:

The first match alone took 85% damage before FullAuto even reached midscreen for his first hit. Just watch the first two matches if too long. Good matches overall. This is the trademark NRS zoning that has existed for over a decade that is non-existent in MK1.

So now that we have more clarity. Do you agree that this play style of NRS zoning is non-existent, or are you saying this zoning above is in the game currently?

 

[rifraf]

The real deal zoning. The zoning's zoning. Win condition zoning. Like this:

While there's definitely zoning in MK1, I doubt there's something like that.

Is there any other character in MK11 that can do what Cetrion does or is it just one character that can do this? Idk about MK11, I didn't play it.

 

[SaltShaker]

While there's definitely zoning in MK1, I doubt there's something like that.

Is there any other character in MK11 that can do what Cetrion does or is it just one character that can do this? Idk about MK11, I didn't play it.

Yea there a couple characters that play somewhat similar and were seen a lot in tournament, but Cetrion was the "main Top Tier zoner" out of them though as she was Top 3 in the whole game with maybe a couple of losing MUs at the most. She was really strong. Of course other characters were strong too, but she was perfect lol. One of my all-time favorite characters to play.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

Well-said.

Some of the best zoning characters in NRS fighting games have been DLC so there is definitely hope. #InPaoloWeTrust

Who do you guys think are the best zoning teams right now?

I am currently using Reiko/Stryker (Rewind's former team before the Darrius tech). This combination seems high mid tier.

Juggs mentioned Foxy who uses Shang/Kung Lao and Kitana/Sub Zero. Shang/Kung has a hard-to-block setup while Kitana/Sub Zero has a very good runaway game. I am not a fan (pun intended) of Kitana's normal attacks, though.

Sooneo uses Liu Kang/Kung Lao, but I have not seen much of him in casual and tournament games. I believe this team is strong, though.

I was using Sub-Zero but I feel he’s too bad to play right now. So I switched to Kenshi/Sektor.

Injustice 1 was my first serious fighting game so zoning is near and dear to my heart. Imagine fighting the Flash, or Bane, or Wonder Woman without any real way to keep them out.

That’s what MK1 feels like most of the time. I hope the defensive characters get buffed, and that a few of the dlc are good zoners.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Finally NRS videos lol. But, funny enough, that's the "peak" of zoning in MK1. I'm glad you posted that, because I agree with you there, that's what zoning looks like in MK1. The "best zoning" in the current game is a fraction of zoning in most NRS games.

For example, what I am and some others are referring to, is NRS patented zoning. The real deal zoning. The zoning's zoning. Win condition zoning. Like this:

The first match alone took 85% damage before FullAuto even reached midscreen for his first hit. Just watch the first two matches if too long. Good matches overall. This is the trademark NRS zoning that has existed for over a decade that is non-existent in MK1.

So now that we have more clarity. Do you agree that this play style of NRS zoning is non-existent, or are you saying this zoning above is in the game currently?

That's kind of the key point though — this isn't how the zoning works in other games of this type. And that's one of the big reasons why previous NRS titles were so unbalanced. Going all the way back to MK9.

Whether it's Martian, Zod, Freddy, Kenshi, Cetrion, the fact that the zoning did not match the mobility tools given to characters (like it does in SF6) has meant many extremely lopsided MUs. A lot of characters just couldn't start to play the game against them.

Just like some people who were used to the incessant rushdown of MKX complained when they actually had to play footsies in MK11, instread of shoving nonstop 50/50s on people with a run button.

So now that the zoning is more like it is for other games of this style — lots of characters zone, some are better at it than others, but you have to be smart about it, play footsies constantly, and can't just rely on being able to take 85% life solely with projectiles. So it's actually more in line with proper fighting game design. And we have some players who aren't used to not having that crutch to not need good neutral.

 

[rifraf]

Yea there a couple characters that play somewhat similar and were seen a lot in tournament, but Cetrion was the "main Top Tier zoner" out of them though as she was Top 3 in the whole game with maybe a couple of losing MUs at the most. She was really strong. Of course other characters were strong too, but she was perfect lol. One of my all-time favorite characters to play.

I think I get what you're saying now. You want a character that most of his toolset consists of zoning tools, aka a pure zoner. Do we have something like that in MK1? Idk, but I'm sure there will be a character like that in the future. I don't see why not.