The most honest and fair character variation in MK11

[Marlow]

I'm going to heavily agree with Dixie here. Deploying and dealing with dishonest moves is just part of fighting games. Compared to most 2D fighters MK11 feels fairly tame, especially compared to previous MK titles. To me part of playing a fighting game is knowing you're going to have to deal with these kinds of things.

@Trevor what kind of other fighting games have you played? I'm just curious if you have any examples of other games to compare and contrast with MK11 which you find to be more honest?

 

[Trevor]

I find a lot wrong with this post.

People act like dash punches, wave dashes, and the like ruin the neutral, but they're part of the neutral. There are ways to deal with these tools, and to exploit them if people use them as a crutch.


Separating characters into honest/dishonest is a dishonest way of talking about the game tbh

You really have your own idea of what dishonest means. Forget the word dishonest and change it with cheesy and unreactable. Also, no, wave dashes do not ruin neutral, unreactable, long range 50/50 BS ruins neutral.

 

[Trevor]

I'd like to add Kabal's Mean Streak as well. Honest damage and relies on the NMD cancels for pressure. I havn't seen many of them around and even less that bring out the best of this variation. Lovethoughts has always been my go-to example of how to play him.

I would say my issue with Kabal is that he is too safe on most of his strings.That kind of makes him cheesy. Not to say he is a cheap and lame character, but he does have some cheesy moves that alter his jumps.

 

[Trevor]

Sonic struggling with Robocop isnt necessarily because the character is "honest" it's because the character is lacking.

That is exactly what makes them honest in a roster that caters to cheesy 50/50 trickery. "honest" in this context is the same as saying the character is lacking when most of the roster has very shady tools to win.

 

[Trevor]

If you dont want to use a top tier because you feel like they're too powerful and a crutch, that's fine but you should also accept the consequences of playing a weaker character. Sonic struggling with Robocop isnt necessarily because the character is "honest" it's because the character is lacking.

That pretty much says it all. A good fighting game is not meant to have severely weak characters that don't stand a chance at tournament levels. MK11 has plenty of those. This is the reason why you only see a handful of characters making it to high places in tournaments. I was never an MK player before mk11. I come from the SSF2T (even the lowest tier, cammy and blanka have a hell of a fighting chance there and have won major tournaments) and SFA world, but I remember everyone kept telling me that MK was crap because it's a cheesy and unbalanced fighting game. I did not understand why they said that until now. It's very evident why MK has always been the class clown in the FGC. With that said, as I have stated before, it's incredibly fun and ultimately most of us are in it to have fun, have some debates here and there, and kill time.

 

[Trevor]

I'm going to heavily agree with Dixie here. Deploying and dealing with dishonest moves is just part of fighting games. Compared to most 2D fighters MK11 feels fairly tame, especially compared to previous MK titles. To me part of playing a fighting game is knowing you're going to have to deal with these kinds of things.

@Trevor what kind of other fighting games have you played? I'm just curious if you have any examples of other games to compare and contrast with MK11 which you find to be more honest?

I'm fairly advanced at old school gameslike SSF2T and SFA2. Also Soul calibur 2, not the BS it has become in SC6. I know all games have cheese and BS, but MK takes it to a whole other level. As I mentioned earlier, even the lowest tier characters in SSF2T have won tournaments many times. I know that game has the wall dive claw BS; and many brutal touch of death combos, but every character is capable of that massive damage and every character has a fighting chance at pro levels. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, but MK11 is too ridiculous at times, like it was designed to troll people like SFV.

I have also played SF4, KOF, etc. None of them feel as cheesy as MK11 to me. I know older MK games are even worse, so it seems MK11 is trying to make things right, but the balance is far from there. At least the skill level in most of those games is proportonate to the damage you can deal. In Mk11, the cheapest characters are the easiest to use, but that is a whole other story.

 

[Trevor]

I will say this to make it even clearer.I have never felt that a fighting game is as restrictive in some matchups as MK11. I can beat a scrubby scorpion or sub zero without issues, but I always have to play their game, I can't just play mine and use my reactions to anti air freely or choose my positioning freely. This is my biggest issue with MK11. And I know I have to deal with it if I play the game, but that is the part of the game that ruins it for me. The rest is super fun and I love it. A good number of people are understanding the purpose of the post which is to state which character they find to be most honest. They are not seeing this as a personal attack on any character or player. They also see exactly what the point is when I say words like honest or cheesy.

 

[Javoo On Fire]

KANE Dirtbag /s

 

[Marlow]

I know that game has the wall dive claw BS; and many brutal touch of death combos, but every character is capable of that massive damage and every character has a fighting chance at pro levels.

I find this a little odd, only because to me one of the best things about MK11 is that so much of the cast is completely competitively viable. If you compare the worst characters in MK11 to the worst characters from other fighting games, I feel like the MK11 characters are much closer to the top than in other games.

But like you said, maybe that's missing the point of your post. If I had to choose an honest character, I'd choose Raiden.

 

[jmt]

Cetrion by far

 

[Syzoth]

Baraka tenfold, mainly cause thats who I main and I am a downplaying son of a bitch. Playing Baraka in KL is like going into machine gun fire with a musket. I have to hope your whole clip of mix ups, staggers, and wifi bullshit misses to take my one little shot. And If I miss? I have to patiently reload and hope that your next clip of mix ups, staggers, and wifi bullshit misses me again.

There we have it. My favorite message in all of TYM. We can all go home now, this man has won.

 

[TheBeep]

(even the lowest tier, cammy and blanka have a hell of a fighting chance there and have won major tournaments)

In a game as old as Super Turbo there was bound to be some tournament where a low tier wins.

 

[Blewdew]

That pretty much says it all. A good fighting game is not meant to have severely weak characters that don't stand a chance at tournament levels. MK11 has plenty of those. This is the reason why you only see a handful of characters making it to high places in tournaments.

I guess you have to watch more tournaments then, because the only character I can‘t remember placing high in tournaments are spawn,robocop,skarlet,kotal,sheeva and Fujin. I really don‘t think this game has a lot of weak characters. There are some variations that are ass though

 

[623HS]

there are not many fighting games out there that have any honest character at all, being honest is overrated anyway

 

[HeavyNorse]

Honest isn't fun, imo.
But if you want the most honest fighting game, this is it:

 

[FullLifeguard]

Ok, so for me the MK11 roster is pretty lame for the most part. I guess I just dislike the flashy moves and neutral killing BS that most characters have. With that said, I believe that some characters have very fair and honest variations.

For example, a variation that forces you to learn to use your normals, staggers and general footsie game, is a variation that I consider legitimate and honest.

Let’s take a perfect example of a crappy variation based on the average player (not top or bottom in skill, just mid level)

A mid level Sub Zero player is usually spoiled by his cheesy tactics. Many sub zeros up to demi god rank don’t even use normals. They focus on their 50/50 tactis and hope for the best. So in a way this type of character encourages bad habits, and in turn, people get discouraged when their tricks stop working at higher levels. On the other hand, a character like Jax Grinnin Barret forces you to learn the neutral and the stagger game. You are basically encouraged to learn fundamentals with an honest character variation, while a cheap one gives you terrible habits until you realize this is not viable.

Why Grinning Barret is the most honest variation in my opinion:

-The only truly overpowered move is his Fatal Blow

-it takes skills to perform many of his advanced combos

-None of his specials are unreactable

-None of his strings are true 50/50s

-His highest damage combos require practice and skill

-Hi jump has no delays, no projectiles and no variations at all

Note: Hunker down is boring, cheesy and way too easy to use. I can't even consider going back to it now that I understand the game a bit more and I have fine tuned my grinning combos. Ringer is alright, but I can't stand not having gotcha.

Now, my second runner up for the most honest is Baraka and unlike Jax, I think all of his variations are pretty honest. I would think no other character is as honest as grinning jax and all barakas, but maybe I'm wrong.

With that said, I would to hear what you guys think are the top 5 most honest or least the “least cheesy” variations in the game.

I dont see how Hunker down is any more cheesy than GB because either way Jax's game plan is the same which is to stagger and throw alot so that you can get your damage and heat. Also 1st Round KO would have to be the most honest character because she cant really mix you with overheads or lows,she has to beat you by conditioning you to think she will throw so she can land damage. Johnny cage is another character who has no mix and his projectile isn't really broken,he gets damage by outspacing and conditioning you. Totemic Kotal is another one as well because he has to effectively whiff punish you to start his game plan.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Baraka and nightwolf

 

[Eddy Wang]

Try hemorrhage skarlet

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

With different experience, we gain different perspective. From what I can tell, the perception of "Honest and cheese" will strongly vary, depends on your previous gaming history. I wont be referring to other titles, but rather stick to our beloved MK series.

There is also the matter of understanding the concept of "competitive play". Imo, that is something that tournament play forges in you. Once that happens, the game perception changes. Even a character as broken as Cyrax (MK9) is seen as character.

If I may call someone honest, or cheese, it would be the player, rather then character. How character is played, that depends on the player. At certain level, the character can carry you as much.

Mortal Kombat tittles have some crazy bat $hit, I wont ague about that, but it is part of the game, that at certain level you deal with it, as you are dealing with the rest. Depend on player philosophy, there is counter pick, or just grinding the MU to the point, where you lab pretty much every thing about, if you want to go with your main till your brain burns.

To me, outside of competitive perception, the character judgement is based on "how much does the player has to put work into a character in order to dominate".

Some characters require certain level of manual, reaction, and mu analysis, much more then others. That group of characters to me, will never be dishonest, nor cheese. That is the reason why only certain group of people had regular success with that group of characters/variations.

Long ago, before we had access to frame data, and internet, in competitive play there was less complaining about the mechanism of the game. People were focusing on leveling up, by going one against another, till you were out of change, to continue playing the game on the arcade, or you actually adapted. Now we have access to frame data, lab that allows to do pretty much everything, decent net code, and game that does not require as much as previous tittles, and yet there is much more crying, then during the last two tittles (MK9+MKX) combine.

IMHO, the source of this "phase" comes from negativity born on YT towards MK11. When there is not much experience, its easy to be programmed by what they feed you. Its like listening mainstream news - Covid-19 is a deadly virus, and Trump is very successful president.

And on the record, I am not some MK11 fanboy. Due to this madness that going around about this game, I decided not to participate in these debates, and also cause the game is not much of a fun for me, as previous tittles, nor in the casual play, nor competitive.

Wow, this is one of the longest posts, I've made this year lol.
Just found some free time this evening, and inspiration to share my two cents on the case.
I am ready for negative feedback, I just wont take the bait, and go for a week long conversation

You all have a good day,

 

[exflyingbooty]

I honestly think 80% of you don't get what honest means.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Most honest is Fanfare Kitana.