The many wake-up options of MK11. An overblown complaint...

[Kindred]

I hear people complain about all the different wake-ups in MK11. I dont see all those options as problematic and maybe it has to do with the way I conceptualize the game, so I figured Id share it here.

In MK11, you can wake up in 9 ways (5 if you have no defensive meter)

• Buttons (start a string or do a special move) , Unarmored launcher U2 (needs meter) , Armored U3 (needs meter) , Roll Forward (needs meter) , Roll Backward (needs meter) , Throw , Jump , delay , Block

When I see this, I break it down into 2 basic strategies after seeing if my opponent has meter or not:
My opponent is knocked down, will they choose to be:

1. Offensive:
   • Buttons (start a string or do a special move)
   • Jump
   • Throw
   • Unarmored launcher U2 (needs meter)
   • Armored U3 (needs meter)
   • Roll Forward (needs meter)
2. Defensive:
   • Roll Backward (needs meter)
   • Delay
   • Block

If you feel your opponent will probably be taking a defensive position, then going in can benefit you.
If I read that he is probably going to go on the OFFENSE, I can do a few things:

1. Time a flawless block U2/U3

• Benefits:
  • Deals with U2
  • Deals with U3
  • Deals with Buttons (You might not be able to flawless block based on timing so it depends what they wakeup buttons with and if it is of similar speed to the U3/U2. If you read buttons, it's probably best to just bait it out...have you ever played against a LK that didnt wakeup 123? lol)
  • If it misses, it becomes a hop attack that deals with many jumps, attempted throws or defensive low blocking opponents and recovers fast enough to poke a rolling opponent.
• Disadvantages:
  • Punishable if blocked
  • Risky if mistimed (practice is key here)
  • Doesnt affect Roll backwards (how often do you see those though?)

2. Cross Jump

• Benefits:
  • Keeps me safe of forward rolls
  • Keeps me safe from whiffed U3 or throws, which I can punish
  • If they have forward advancing buttons, I can try to catch them while they recover
• Disadvantages:
  • Can get caught by U2
  • You can be Anti-aired if you miss-read, thinking the opponent will be offensive when they actually end up being defensive (blocking)

3. Bait out the attack and whiff punish

• Benefits:
  • Deals with U2
  • Deals with U3
  • Deals with wakeup Buttons
  • Deals with wakeup throws
  • Deals with Forward roll
• Disadvantages if the person reads your bait:
  • Opponent can wake up with a special move (Ive woken up with flying kick with LK against characters who walk back expecting an U3)
  • Roll back (resets neutral)

4. Block and take my turn back (susceptible to throws/command grabs)

The point im trying to make is that when you complain that there are too many wake-up options, you are underestimating the number of options you have in order to deal with those wake-ups. The reality is that 1 move you do can cover many of their options. You can't be sure 100% whether they will go on the offense and, if so, how, but you have to look for what is most likely. If I fight a LK who loves to wake up with 123, then obviously Im going to adapt my approach to punish it while staying safe if he chooses not to.

Some of you might say ''yea but flawless blocking is easier said than done''. Yea, it's an advanced mechanic that needs practice. If I take an exact copy of you but give it the ability to land flawless blocks more often, chances are you wont be able to take your turn as often as you would like, you wont be able to pressure the way you usually do and you will lose. That's what happens. You can either bitch about it or put the work. pardon my french

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Wakeup throw is legit against flawless blockers.

 

[Kindred]

Wakeup throw is legit against flawless blockers.

If they wake up throw and you try to flawless block, you end up hop attacking, so most often, their throw whiffs and they get caught

unless they delay, then throw. But that's on me for expecting an offensive strategy when the delay is a defensive strategy. I misread and deserve to eat damage.

 

[Qwark28]

If they wake up throw and you try to flawless block, you end up hop attacking, so most often, their throw whiffs and they get caught

unless they delay, then throw. But that's on me for expecting an offensive strategy when the delay is a defensive strategy. I misread and deserve to eat damage.

Or you do the actually optimal OS and get a standing normal/string and get thrown.

The wakeup system in this game is absolute trash. You don't even go in depth about short and long delay, which btw isn't defensive, it's offensive. A lot of stuff in the thread just straight up shows a bad understanding of the wakeup system in the hands of a good player or is straight up misinformation.

 

[Kindred]

Or you do the actually optimal OS and get a standing normal/string and get thrown.

The wakeup system in this game is absolute trash. You don't even go in depth about short and long delay, which btw isn't defensive, it's offensive. A lot of stuff in the thread is wrong and just straight up shows a bad understanding of the wakeup system in the hands of a good player.

There is no one size fits all OS. Its very situational. If you are getting caught consistently while going for this supposed OS, then it isnt very optimal...

Why do you say it's offensive? It opens the door to be offensive sure but the whole idea of delaying your wake up is to throw off an attacking opponent. You take a momentary defensive position in which you arent attacking (the definition of being defensive) in order to gain an upper hand and go on the offense.
What's the rationale for saying that it's an offensive choice?

The reason I dont go in detail with short and long is because ultimately they serve the same purpose, fucking up his timing to gain an upper hand. You would treat a short delay and a long delay the same way, expect for your timing to match that delay. What am I missing here?

 

[Wigy]

flawless blocking u2/u3 doesnt OS wakeup buttons. Its an entirely different timing...?

The wakeup system in this game is absolute trash and is one of the core reasons some characters can feel horrible to play as, and against.

 

[Wigy]

Little interactions like reading a full delay buttons, going for a string for that meaty timing, they just wakeup jump, my string clips them then whiffs and they wakeup buttons kill me.

Just seems like a lot of ‘fuck it’ options that can blow up a bunch of things for no resources.

 

[Kindred]

flawless blocking u2/u3 doesnt OS wakeup buttons. Its an entirely different timing...?

The wakeup system in this game is absolute trash and is one of the core reasons some characters can feel horrible to play as, and against.

Yea some wakeup buttons have a slower startup than then U3/U2 forcing you to opt for something other than the flawless block. I do notice that most people who will go for wakeup buttons usually have a character suited for it (like LK for instance, or even frosts 13).
Personally, if I go for the flawless block on their wakeup, it's usually because I havent seen them wakeup buttons often enough so the probability they do that is lower than a regular U3 or other options.

Little interactions like reading a full delay buttons, going for a string for that meaty timing, they just wakeup jump, my string clips them then whiffs and they wakeup buttons kill me.
Just seems like a lot of ‘fuck it’ options that can blow up a bunch of things for no resources.

Oh I hear ya LOL It can be annoying af. Im guilty of it not gonna lie. Correct me if Im wrong, but I feel that these kinds of strats are present and work in other fighting games but then you get on MK and a seemingly random jump fucks your string. I havent played other fighters and so I can't compare. I end up just dealing with the game as is. If someones random jump screws up my meaty, then I mightve lost that exchange but I gained info about my opponents playstyle

 

[Wigy]

Yea some wakeup buttons have a slower startup than then U3/U2 forcing you to opt for something other than the flawless block. I do notice that most people who will go for wakeup buttons usually have a character suited for it (like LK for instance, or even frosts 13).
Personally, if I go for the flawless block on their wakeup, it's usually because I havent seen them wakeup buttons often enough so the probability they do that is lower than a regular U3 or other options.



Oh I hear ya LOL It can be annoying af. Im guilty of it not gonna lie. Correct me if Im wrong, but I feel that these kinds of strats are present and work in other fighting games but then you get on MK and a seemingly random jump fucks your string. I havent played other fighters and so I can't compare. I end up just dealing with the game as is. If someones random jump screws up my meaty, then I mightve lost that exchange but I gained info about my opponents playstyle

My personal experience is that the majority of strings do not catch jumps well at all comparative to old games, also you could meaty people properly there wasnt this silly mega ambiguous invincibility frame garbage.

* for where i find strings whiff on clipping jumps up close
Kollector

f12*
f21*
13*
2 1+3*
b23*

Frost

b12*
22*
344*
B22*

this is what urks me, i guess that youre not going to u3 or u2 or roll. Then i have a select few good meaty strings to check wakeup buttons which are absolutely horrible at catching jumps. I shouldnt be getting punished on hit from mistiming my mid by a few frames after making about 2 reads already.

added annoyance being most of the top tier characters have strings that catch shit super consistently or have OS to catch wakeups and disrespect easily.

 

[Kindred]

this is what urks me, i guess that youre not going to u3 or u2 or roll. Then i have a select few good meaty strings to check wakeup buttons which are absolutely horrible at catching jumps. I shouldnt be getting punished on hit from mistiming my mid by a few frames after making about 2 reads already.

Yea thats the thing with this game (which I try to avoid comparing it to others), is that while in some games, the response of reading U3/U2/roll is a meaty, here we have to change it up sometimes.

I think that it doesnt bother me because I just look at it like an extra variable to deal with.

 

[Archgamer]

You forgot one important thing.

Wakeup Fatal Blows. So that's 10 wakeup options the down opponent has. If you want to split up the short delay and the long one, then that makes its 11 options for the opponent. And then there is the neutral jump and the forward jump. 12 options now. This is DISGUSTING.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You forgot one important thing.

Wakeup Fatal Blows. So that's 10 wakeup options the down opponent has. If you want to split up the short delay and the long one, then that makes its 11 options for the opponent. And then there is the neutral jump and the forward jump. 12 options now. This is DISGUSTING.

Every button you could possibly hit is not a “wake up option”. Unless it’s something you can only do on wakeup, or it’s protected by WU invincibility, etc., it’s not really using the wakeup system.

It’s kinda ridiculous when you’re like like “Omg they could walk backward on wakeup, that’s another WU option bro! Omg they could neutral duck that’s another option!”

 

[Archgamer]

Every button you could possibly hit is not a “wake up option”. Unless it’s something you can only do on wakeup, or it’s protected by WU invincibility, etc., it’s not really using the wakeup system.

It’s kinda ridiculous when you’re like like “Omg they could walk backward on wakeup, that’s another WU option bro! Omg they could neutral duck that’s another option!”

The TC puts jumping as a wake up option. I'm free to add fatal blows because it's what a lot of people still do.

What do you get from walking back? What exactly can the person gain from it? And who actuall does that?

 

[DeftMonk]

One of the things that annoys the shit out of me even if they just removed the roll and u2 u3 is the combination of useful normals/strings having like 2 active frames then giving the option to randomize your wakeup timing. Why? lol might as well give everyone a button that has like 7 active frames at leaves u +2/heavy knock back on hit or some shit if they are gonna do that.

 

[Qwark28]

There is no one size fits all OS. Its very situational. If you are getting caught consistently while going for this supposed OS, then it isnt very optimal...

Why do you say it's offensive? It opens the door to be offensive sure but the whole idea of delaying your wake up is to throw off an attacking opponent. You take a momentary defensive position in which you arent attacking (the definition of being defensive) in order to gain an upper hand and go on the offense.
What's the rationale for saying that it's an offensive choice?

The reason I dont go in detail with short and long is because ultimately they serve the same purpose, fucking up his timing to gain an upper hand. You would treat a short delay and a long delay the same way, expect for your timing to match that delay. What am I missing here?

Because the entire point of delay wakeup is to get someone to whiff their button for you to either full combo punish or get a free D1 check, former more than latter. Out of every wakeup option in this game, U3 and U2 are among the least offensive in regards to the damage they do + the resources they take + their conditions.

Short is also different than long in the sense that you can't meaty a short wakeup on reaction with anything over 10f, while a long delay is meatyable by anything.

Going into detail is what I'd expect from an analysis about people complaining about the wakeup system, but simplifying thing like this is also good for a mid lvl understanding on the game.

 

[ticklebandit!]

I haven't read most of the comments in this thread so forgive me if im re-saying shit.

But playing a character with no fast mids, and no mid starting strings that are hit confirm-able into combos, like V3 Sub Zero, and going up against people (cough Kung Lao) who after knockdown can wake up yolo d2, wake up yolo NJK/NJP, delay yolo d2, delay yolo cross up jik/jip, delay yolo d3 into grab/buttons has given me cancer and i have passed away. As per my will my grandson Thomas has typed this message.

 

[Zviko]

I haven't read most of the comments in this thread so forgive me if im re-saying shit.

But playing a character with no fast mids, and no mid starting strings that are hit confirm-able into combos, like V3 Sub Zero.

Low = mid. 12f is not slow. B3 is hit confirmable.

 

[ticklebandit!]

Low = mid. 12f is not slow. B3 is hit confirmable.

B3 can still wiff on jumpers unless you time it right. Also B3 is 12 frames but Kung Lao D3 is 7. Also what does a V3 Sub hit confirm B3 into when the opponent is mid air? You do not play V3 Sub. You are a shill talking out of your anus.

 

[Zviko]

B3 can still wiff on jumpers unless you time it right. Also B3 is 12 frames but Kung Lao D3 is 7. Also what does a V3 Sub hit confirm B3 into when the opponent is mid air? You do not play V3 Sub. You are a shill talking out of your anus.

None of one you said here has anything to do with your initial post. You are just nitpicking now. You have a problem with jumpers? B1 into ice ball works in every variation. If it's your turn, dash back into B3 will beat Lao's D3 mash. B3 hit mid air? Finish the string, it will hit. If they are high enough you can even cancel at B32 and get a D1 slide after it. For more info sikander555 on YT. You are welcome.

 

[ticklebandit!]

None of one you said here has anything to do with your initial post. You are just nitpicking now. You have a problem with jumpers? B1 into ice ball works in every variation. If it's your turn, dash back into B3 will beat Lao's D3 mash. B3 hit mid air? Finish the string, it will hit.

The fook? I have a problem with the amount of non meter wake up options. Like my first post clearly states. B1 ice ball on an air born opponent will wiff and get you killed in EVERY variation. As it also would on block. Dash back B3 will get hit by NJ anything into full combo or even be stuffed by d3. After scoring a knockdown I have like 1 in 5 chances to guess right for tiny rewards whereas my opponent can get a d2 combo, NJP into combo, or poke to take their turn back. Not that making the right read is bad in a fighting game, but what other NRS game gave the person being knocked down this many options?

 

[Zviko]

The fook? I have a problem with the amount of non meter wake up options. Like my first post clearly states. B1 ice ball on an air born opponent will wiff and get you killed in EVERY variation. As it also would on block. Dash back B3 will get hit by NJ anything into full combo or even be stuffed by d3. After scoring a knockdown I have like 1 in 5 chances to guess right for tiny rewards whereas my opponent can get a d2 combo, NJP into combo, or poke to take their turn back. Not that making the right read is bad in a fighting game, but what other NRS game gave the person being knocked down this many options?

You are right, they have many options. I'm just saying what options you have as a Sub Zero player for all those options because it seems like you don't know your character very well. You are still saying B1 into ice ball doesn't work. Sure, if you miss time it it doesn't work. Also not many characters can punish B1 into ice ball at max range. But it will catch jumpers if timed right and if you whiff, ice ball doesn't even come out. Seriously, sikander555. Go watch him. He actually made a video about Sub Zero and all his anti wake up options are covered.

 

[ticklebandit!]

You are right, they have many options.

Thank you, gg.

And you are right, Sub is not my character. He is the example of a character with no hit confirmable mids that I used in my first post.

 

[DeftMonk]

B3 can still wiff on jumpers unless you time it right. Also B3 is 12 frames but Kung Lao D3 is 7. Also what does a V3 Sub hit confirm B3 into when the opponent is mid air? You do not play V3 Sub. You are a shill talking out of your anus.

what mid can contest kung lao's d3 if you are at 0? Don't understand what your point is tho

 

[Kindred]

The TC puts jumping as a wake up option. I'm free to add fatal blows because it's what a lot of people still do.

What do you get from walking back? What exactly can the person gain from it? And who actuall does that?

I didnt include fatal blows because that's not a readily available option for the majority of the match. Once the fatal blow is in play, you have to change your playstyle to account for that. You have to be more defensive if the opponent has a tendency to throw it out on wakeup. Also jumping forward or backward, I dont make that distinction because ultimately, they are jumping and some strings whiff regardless of the direction. If you read they are going to jump, you treat it the same no matter the direction. You either catch them pressing the button or stand back to catch them on trip guard or AA. Your movement doesnt radically change.

Because the entire point of delay wakeup is to get someone to whiff their button for you to either full combo punish or get a free D1 check, former more than latter. Out of every wakeup option in this game, U3 and U2 are among the least offensive in regards to the damage they do + the resources they take + their conditions.

@Qwark28 Yea I agree that's the point of delaying your wakeup, to get someone to whiff. But you do that by first laying there waiting for their offense to fail so that you take the offensive position. That wait, that lying down, that's the delay and that's a defensive move. In my view, offense means "Im attacking", not "Im gonna wait then attack" because while im waiting, Im not on the offense.

Short is also different than long in the sense that you can't meaty a short wakeup on reaction with anything over 10f, while a long delay is meatyable by anything.

I find that you can deal with short and long delays by varying your own timing. I use mainly 1 move for meaty (with frost specifically) and I throw it out at a timing that would catch a short or a long delay depending what my opponent has been doing thus far.

Going into detail is what I'd expect from an analysis about people complaining about the wakeup system, but simplifying thing like this is also good for a mid lvl understanding on the game.

I understand you want me to go in the nitty-gritty. And yes, perhaps this is a mid-lvl understanding of the system (I never said I was going to do a deep dive analysis). But this is how I conceptualize the game and as a result, I dont get bothered by the system, I live with it and I adapt to situations. Im not saying the wakeup system is flawless. I can breakdown every possible thing a person can do on wake up and how every character can deal with it but sometimes, less is more lol

 

[spidey300]

i don't think you can treat block as a wakeup option. i know nrs players hate blocking but it's not some foreign concept.