Question The difference between Zoning, Footsies and Neutral Game

[Eddy Wang]

On daily basis on TYM, we run alot into these terms, and i'm pretty sure that i can get really confusing at times.

I'm not exactly a master or expert in both, but i gotta say that i got really interested in Neutral Game a lot after reading @Protagonist_1 article about it, and though i used to play footsies more, it surely has open my mind and made me expand my game knowledge and how to approach in many games.


However, i'm pretty sure these 3 themes are really confusing most of the times, and ppl tends to lose themselves into it, from what we know, for example, TYM calls Zoning a type of space control using projectiles, but we know also that you can zone ppl out without projectiles.

So when is that space control becomes footsies? And when is the moment i can translate this into playing neutral game, or Zoning?


This is a open thread, anyone experienced in the matter, care to share their thoughts a bit?

 

[LeeVanDam]

The way I've learned them on other fighting games is:

Zoning - controlling space with a projectile, or some other part of yourself that is detached from you and does not have a hurtbox (zone). That extension of yourself can't be counterpoked, it has to be just blocked or avoided and its goal is to make you occupy a different space of the screen (whether it be jump, stand far away and block, ect.)

Footsies - using your best normal/special to attack someone at a range where you are able to make contact with them, but they aren't able to make contact with you. This leads to counter footsies (whiff punishing the normal/special) in which the other player is trying to use movement not be made contact with so that they can counterattack while you recover. Normally the poke being used is safe on block, otherwise it's a terrible job of poking to begin with.

Neutral Game - just encompasses both of these because they're tied to you trying to gain a better position. Landing a combo is normally a product of either someone failing at zoning, or establishing great position via poking/counterpoking.

 

[buyacushun]

It gets a little different depending on the game of course. SF has projectiles you could use as part of footsies while MKx projectiles focus more on abusive full screen zoning. I don't really like the term footsies when trying to talk about it in depth because it feels like an all encompassing slang for poking.

I like @LeeVanDam definitions. Pretty much hit the nail right on the head. Neutral game uses both poking and zoning. Ryu chucking plasma at Hugo is still the neutral game. Ryu just has the advantage in neutral. But he has to be careful once Hugo gets into poking range (where is normals can touch) or even just a bit outside (where claps are quick enough they can be done to catch fireballs and touch ryu). You can also try to zone with normals which I consider to be a more defensive form of footsies. I feel poking tends to be more offensive and you're poking to catch your opponent off guard or start pressure. Where if you zoned with normals you're just trying to react to opponent and keep them in poke range. You aren't looking to swing momentum.

Man I could write for days about theory fighting. That shit is like crack to me.

 

[LeeVanDam]

It gets a little different depending on the game of course. SF has projectiles you could use as part of footsies while MKx projectiles focus more on abusive full screen zoning. I don't really like the term footsies when trying to talk about it in depth because it feels like an all encompassing slang for poking.

I like @LeeVanDam definitions. Pretty much hit the nail right on the head. Neutral game uses both poking and zoning. Ryu chucking plasma at Hugo is still the neutral game. Ryu just has the advantage in neutral. But he has to be careful once Hugo gets into poking range (where is normals can touch) or even just a bit outside (where claps are quick enough they can be done to catch fireballs and touch ryu). You can also try to zone with normals which I consider to be a more defensive form of footsies. I feel poking tends to be more offensive and you're poking to catch your opponent off guard or start pressure. Where if you zoned with normals you're just trying to react to opponent and keep them in poke range. You aren't looking to swing momentum.

Man I could write for days about theory fighting. That shit is like crack to me.

I completely agree with you about poking. I mixed up the terms because I was actually trying to define footsies. Footsies always takes two people, because someone is trying to get in range and someone is trying to stay out of range. It's a dance on the screen.

Poking, on the other hand, is when someone is already in range so they're making you have to block their pokes. It's like their poking at you to try and create a hole in your defense with their normals. The goal of poking is always to get someone to either block wrong or not avoid the unblockable option (throw, command throw, unblockable special, etc.). The defender is trying to see a hole in your offense so they can stop you from poking an either counter attack, or change positions which will begin the footsie dance again. Thanks @buyacushun so much for catching that!!

 

[Scott The Scot]

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Read every bit of this and every chapter (even if you don't understand it at first) and look at all the examples. Then do it again. And again and again on a regular basis until you get everything inside this. Try and slowly implement features into your game, you'll feel like Diago when it works lol.

I present you, the footsies handbook. I like to refer to it as my personal little ' FGC Bible':
http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

If you master techniques in this, everything you do becomes so textbook and precise - it helps immensly.

And here's a guy called Juicebox explaining footises:

SF stuff relates to MK aswell but just keep in mind sometimes it's hard to whiff punish because of the advancing strings in this game but not impossible to interrupt, just git gud lol

 

[aieches]

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Read every bit of this and every chapter (even if you don't understand it at first) and look at all the examples. Then do it again. And again and again on a regular basis until you get everything inside this. Try and slowly implement features into your game, you'll feel like Diago when it works lol.

I present you, the footsies handbook. I like to refer to it as my personal little ' FGC Bible':
http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

If you master this, everything you do becomes so textbook and precise.

beat me to it. well done sir

 

[Jowabunga]

amusingly, i eat this (and frame data stuff) up too. I probably enjoy nerding out about this stuff more than I do actually playing the game.

 

[GQJ]

And here's a guy called Juicebox explaining footises:

The Juicebox series are very well done.

A video that I found (and the channel as well) Helped me understand the approach to footsies a little better, as I am still a noob. There was another video from the channel that was cited on this forum that did a match analysis, that is where I found this video.

On a more somber note, it is unfortunate that most of these tutorials are for Street Fighter, and even though I have gained a newfound respect for it, I wish there were more MKX tutorials, outside of Protagonist_1's and Ketchup's series.

 

[Scott The Scot]

The Juicebox series are very well done.

A video that I found (and the channel as well) Helped me understand the approach to footsies a little better, as I am still a noob. There was another video from the channel that was cited on this forum that did a match analysis, that is where I found this video.

On a more somber note, it is unfortunate that most of these tutorials are for Street Fighter, and even though I have gained a newfound respect for it, I wish there were more MKX tutorials, outside of Protagonist_1's and Ketchup's series.

Excellent! I didn't know there were other beginner tutorials. I'll watch it even though I understand it I'm sure just in-case he says something that helps me learn something new and genereally to brush up on my knowledge.

Good stuff man!

 

[Protagonist_1]

It's interesting because after watching many videos by Alex Valle, Daigo, and reading the Sonic Hurricane guide as well as other guides on footsies, there isn't a clear cut definition defining footsies. I'm still learning a lot myself, so I can't really call myself an expert; I just love the topic. For the other terms such as zoning or neutral game, I feel they are pretty clear cut. I'll just chime in a bit:

Zoning involves preventing your opponent from entering your space through use of normals or projectiles. The first kind of zoning that comes to mind is the fireball, but you can also zone with normals as well. I'll use examples from MKX to stay relevant:

Common zoning with projectiles by Sonicfox:

Woundcowboy zoning with d4

As you can see here, Woundcowboy was expecting dizzy to run in. To prevent this, he sticks out d4 (he's probably also buffering hellsparks with this) as a check to control the space in front of him. Just as a fireball can be used a poke, a normal can be used as a zoning tool as well. He's also doing this just in case Dizzy green kicks so he can low profile, covering multiple options at once.

Another example by honeybee using dovorah's pokes to push out the corner:

The goal of zoning is controlling the space in front of you and getting your opponent to respect your space. In order to play effective zoning, it's important to have good spacing, and be able to create space for yourself as well to prevent being boxed into a corner.

Footsies is a players ability to utilize the space in front of them when in neutral situations, generally from the mid-screen range. Players who have good footsies not only have good spacing, they know how to use it to gain a tactical advantage over their opponent. This can involve a wide variety of things, from whiff punishment, poking(whether with a normal or a fireball), trip guard(the actual meaning), whiff punishing jump in attacks, anti-airing, neutral setups, etc. It's such a broad topic that sonic hurricane hit to split it up into 10 chapters!

Honeybee (poke/check in neutral to catch run in)


Footsies 101 (walk up, bait, punish)


Woundcowboy using hellsparks to control space

As for the neutral game Alex Valle stated in one of his videos "it's the ground game." It's generally what going on when both players are in neutral.

Combobreaker Dizzy and Sonicfox fighting for space
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-16-2015/YJrnDd.gif

Since different fighting games have different normals, movement, fireballs, etc how you play footsies or zone in one game may differ from another, but the underlying concept is the same.

"The ultimate goal is to control the flow of the match, bait the opponent into committing errors, and punish everything."

-Sonic Hurricane