The Cetrion Matchup, Tech, and Strategy Thread

[SaltShaker]

To all the Elder Gods. I figured I'd make a thread for all to be able to share any MU experience or tips, combined with any tech or strategy involved for Cetrion. I will look to update the OP with a mini MU breakdown for each character as we all improve in the MUs we face. Also, videos of good to high level play vs characters as well.

So share anything you have for Cetrion here competitively!



Matchups--- Soon

 

[SaltShaker]

Videos--- Soon

 

[SaltShaker]

I'll share a quick finding I've been using for about a day. I realized that the Hell's Wrath has quicker recovery when done instant rather than DF1, and jumping obviously has the biggest recovery. Here's a quick video illustrating why this is important, as Geras can punish you on block when done as DF1, but you can punish him when done instant if he goes for the sand.

 

[SaltShaker]

@Baconlord @PLAYING TO WIN @Obly @Kisori @anyone on the Cetrion train.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Nice. I’m working on stuff too. I’ll post when I have it.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

@Lord Snotty

 

[Lord Snotty]

Yes!

I'm finding Sonya my natural go-to with Cetrion as my secret weapon of massive destruction.

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Yes!

I'm finding Sonya my natural go-to with Cetrion as my secret weapon of massive destruction.

I gave her 30 zoning and reversal as an AI and she blasted through the survival tower LmAo

 

[SaltShaker]

After much more exp. and a better handle on her, I think I found a big problem we may face as MU exp becomes more of the norm from opponents. I tend to use the Natural Barrier as a pseudo mixup for pressure alongside the AMP, and more obviously the AMP version to stay safe on strings. Without this move, it would be devastating dealing with the Sonya, Jacqui, Baraka, Erron's of the world up close.

In one long set I was playing Deg he beat AMP Wall, and I almost had a heart attack as it's my most treasured move. I wondered if it was an accident or a mash, so I checked it out. It appears all characters can punish AMP Wall (about a little over halfway through the roster atm) with full combo. This makes both versions of wall full combo punishable. If you don't combo punish through the AMP, you can fairly easy FLB the AMP portion into a combo anyway. I recorded this video to highlight why this can be such a big problem.

I feel that once the MUs are learned better, the risk/reward for AMP Wall just might not even exist, limiting her up close even more. All the "look at Dragon with that pressure" might be a bill because all of that damage is left on the table unpunished by his opponents (due to unfamiliarity in the MU early on). My initial take on this is a definitive "oh no" right now.

@PLAYING TO WIN @Baconlord @Obly @Kisori @Ck AeroVoid @Lord Snotty

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

After much more exp. and a better handle on her, I think I found a big problem we may face as MU exp becomes more of the norm from opponents. I tend to use the Natural Barrier as a pseudo mixup for pressure alongside the AMP, and more obviously the AMP version to stay safe on strings. Without this move, it would be devastating dealing with the Sonya, Jacqui, Baraka, Erron's of the world up close.

In one long set I was playing Deg he beat AMP Wall, and I almost had a heart attack as it's my most treasured move. I wondered if it was an accident or a mash, so I checked it out. It appears all characters can punish AMP Wall (about a little over halfway through the roster atm) with full combo. This makes both versions of wall full combo punishable. If you don't combo punish through the AMP, you can fairly easy FLB the AMP portion into a combo anyway. I recorded this video to highlight why this can be such a big problem.

I feel that once the MUs are learned better, the risk/reward for AMP Wall just might not even exist, limiting her up close even more. All the "look at Dragon with that pressure" might be a bill because all of that damage is left on the table unpunished by his opponents (due to unfamiliarity in the MU early on). My initial take on this is a definitive "oh no" right now.

@PLAYING TO WIN @Baconlord @Obly @Kisori @Ck AeroVoid @Lord Snotty

thanks!

 

[Jowabunga]

AMP Wall is -15 in the frame data, not sure how it ever became a thing to begin with. She literally has nothing even remotely safe to cancel into.

 

[SaltShaker]

AMP Wall is -15 in the frame data, not sure how it ever became a thing to begin with. She literally has nothing even remotely safe to cancel into.

There's more to moves than on-paper frame data. Big D and Dragon were abusing AMP wall on block because of MU inexperience. If you do not use the windows mentioned to punish, the pushback on block is so big that it is safe against the majority of moves in the game, barring things like a reversal Sub-Zero slide and whatnot. Instead, you can be punished by 40% combos once people are used to this. That's a MU changer for many of the MUs.

 

[Jowabunga]

That's the feeling I've been getting from Cetrion generally: that MU experience is gonna be death for her. Even before this full combo epiphany the idea of having to burn offensive bar just to be safe wasn't very inspiring. I gotta imagine they'd bring amp wall down to -4 or -5 going forward, else she's gonna be stuck finishing 112 or any of the -5 strings for safety.

This gal needs help imo.

 

[SaltShaker]

That's the feeling I've been getting from Cetrion generally: that MU experience is gonna be death for her. Even before this full combo epiphany the idea of having to burn offensive bar just to be safe wasn't very inspiring. I gotta imagine they'd bring amp wall down to -4 or -5 going forward, else she's gonna be stuck finishing 112 or any of the -5 strings for safety.

This gal needs help imo.

Yea I agree, that's the larger issue. If I'm in a MU against someone like Sonya, it was the safe haven to know that I can at least get her off for a bar. Instead, she can combo me midscreen whether I AMP or not, forcing me to use negative strings on block, adding to her pressure game. Then, if I'm not up on the life lead, her instantly recovering Rings make it near impossible to catch up with zoning, so you're forced to chase down Sonya. In no game should a zoning character be forced to chase down Sonya.

I'm trying hard to think of how to get around this at the moment considering the long term impact, but I'm not seeing it just yet. There shouldn't be a gap for the AMP if you press it immediately. The gap should be there only if you delay it.

 

[Jowabunga]

I'm not seeing a way around it without changes, the most reasonable of which seems to be just making it safe on Amp. She needs more than that, but it's a start. One of the things that makes me the craziest is that she's unable to generate pressure after a hit d1 or d3 because the HA for both is small enough and her fastest mid at 14 frames is slow enough. I played a ton of matches vs. Noob on Saturday and he was essentially able to trade d1 by mashing after a hit d1 by me when I tried to follow up with F2 into ... whatever. Super frustrating.

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm not seeing a way around it without changes, the most reasonable of which seems to be just making it safe on Amp. She needs more than that, but it's a start. One of the things that makes me the craziest is that she's unable to generate pressure after a hit d1 or d3 because the HA for both is small enough and her fastest mid at 14 frames is slow enough. I played a ton of matches vs. Noob on Saturday and he was essentially able to trade d1 by mashing after a hit d1 by me when I tried to follow up with F2 into ... whatever. Super frustrating.

That is the truth. The frustrating part about it too is that I noticed when you land the D1, you can't "step back and whiff punish" like some characters can. Skarlet for example can land the low poke (or block one), and if they try to return a low poke you can step back and punish consistently. Cetrion's walk back start up is too slow to do that, so you get hit by many of the return pokes in the game. That combined with non-consistent follow ups (F2 even gets low profiled a lot) and it's super annoying.

 

[Jowabunga]

Haven't tried that yet. Glad I haven't, saved me even more frustration. I thought about trying to throw after a successful d1 but that's depressing if it's literally the best case scenario.

 

[Kisori]

I have found several players using the D1 a lot during the fights. I recorded two options where you challenge the opponent on the D1 (being that he is -6 after your D1). You can use hits up to +10 at start. Follow the video.

 

[SaltShaker]

I have found several players using the D1 a lot during the fights. I recorded two options where you challenge the opponent on the D1 (being that he is -6 after your D1). You can use hits up to +10 at start. Follow the video.

Nice bro.

That F2 follow up gets me beat against the low pokes like Subs and Erron's, or sometimes trades. It shouldn't though, so might be an online thing. I have some offline games tomorrow and the Fri/weekend set up so I'll be able to match play it at real speed for long sets again.

However the B3 definitely works. Likely because it's 10F so easier to jail into online. It's pretty much become my go to after a landed D1. If I really go hard read I jump for B3 into combo, but that's only if they are predictable enough. If it's a tough match I keep it safe with B3 KD after the D1 hit.

 

[S+ Main]

What Variation do you guys use?

 

[Jowabunga]

I started with Spring Cleaning, haven't really messed with the other yet.

I decided to add another character (Shao Kahn) to my repertoire so I wasn't stuck fighting uphill with Cetrion constantly, hoping to get back to her after the first patch. Last night was my first real play with him against my buddy that plays Noob, and Shao suffers from the same $%$ing problem Cetrion did, which is 1) all his better strings start with Highs and 2) his fastest mid is 10 frames, but that mid leads to no real pressure, i.e., a +4 on hit ML string that leads to a restand but can't be cancelled into anything or 2) a string that leads to a knockdown, is not cancellable into anything, and is -16 on block. The second fastest mid, the one I can actually combo off and/or channel into pressure, is a 13 frame startup that ends up trading with Noob mashed d1. The end result is that it's virtually impossible to sustain any offensive pressure without resetting outside down poke range. Our entire session consisted of both of us getting in, then mashing downpokes until we got back to mid-range, following which the dance would start over again.

I don't really get the design philosophy behind this ,especially when playing a non-zoner vs. a zoner. You have to work incredibly hard to get in sometimes, but without the ability to sustain pressure you just end up back out where you don't wanna be. It's outrageously frustrating.

 

[Eldagrin]

How are you guys feeling about the Kabal MU? It feels kind of annoying, his projectile requires some working around because it’s so big, swatting a Kabal player out of the air with a KB boulder is incredibly satisfying though, I will say.

His buttons are obviously way better than ours. Nomad Dash doesn’t really work versus df1 at proper spacing. If he blocks a boulder at full screen nomad dash also loses to a second boulder which is going to make him want to jump. If he’s throwing buzzsaws at you at full screen you can reaction db4 him though and it should go over you, if you’re in range to df1 him you can’t really tendril grab on reaction to a throw and he can punish grab from anywhere with nomad dash to be on point with your reactions if you’re going to try and punish buzzsaws. I feel like Geyser doesn’t really get us a ton of mileage in this MU in terms of zoning, although he can’t really do anything about it when he blocks it either and you can technically check him trying to jump if he blocks a boulder since dash loses to a second boulder.

 

[Marinjuana]

Notes on Jade's purple:

None of Cetrion's projectiles will hit Jade when she has purple up, as well Natural Barrier(rock wall), her Earthquake and the orbiting rocks area of effect special in casual mode.

Notably, her Hair Pull will connect, so you can counter her normal glaive easily despite her having the purple up.

 

[StormRIder]

Her d2 needs addressing! It’s either a hitbox issue or the fact that you have to be literally point blank to land a d2 is pretty woeful. I realise the animation of her d2 has her arm going practically vertical but still...she needs a better d2 imo.

 

[jmt]

Just showing a couple anti air things I was working on.