This argument bugs me everything it comes up. Chess is symmetric balance most games are asymmetric balance and there's plenty of ones that have large viable casts. Comparing it to chess is just missing the point
This argument bugs me everything it comes up. Chess is symmetric balance most games are asymmetric balance and there's plenty of ones that have large viable casts. Comparing it to chess is just missing the point
The point is that nobody having any fun tools in the interest of balance does not a good game make. Everyone having fun tools does.
Edit: What's worse, is often times, because the characters are still different, total balance isn't attained. Tiers still exist. But the game still doesn't have that excitement or fun factor. All opinion, ofc.
I hated variations. Some variations you couldnt use certain moves and even now with kustom variations. You’re still limited on your move sets. Just get rid of variations
I hated variations. Some variations you couldnt use certain moves and even now with kustom variations. You’re still limited on your move sets. Just get rid of variations
Interesting read. I personally have no issues with variations so long as they let US decide which moves can go with what(so long as it's balanced of course) like MK X turned me off(aside from the run, 50/50 dominating the game) but with how the variations were limited, as an Ermac zoning player. I hated how we were forced to choose between the variation with projectiles, certain TK attacks vs. one with limited TK attacks and no projectiles and then one that just sucked as far as I'm concerned.
I'm looking forward to being able to modify them myself this time, but the fact that there's no run and I won't be penalized for a few backdashes to get space gives me lots of hope this game will play similar to MK 9 than MK X honestly, the new changes to the variation system has me hopeful/more excited than MK X I'll admit.
This argument bugs me everything it comes up. Chess is symmetric balance most games are asymmetric balance and there's plenty of ones that have large viable casts. Comparing it to chess is just missing the point
The trick is that every character has an equal chance at:
- Deleting the opponent's health bar
- Getting its own health bar deleted
- Preventing the opponent from deleting the health bar
- Circumventing the opponent from preventing it
This breakdown is obviously simplified as fuck but here goes anyway.
So there are essentially permutations of 4 types of pvp variables:
Type 1: Offensive Oppressive Strategy - in which you force the opponent into situations where their HP will get deleted unless they take their turn and force you to defend.
STRENGTH: Pressure
WEAKNESS: Defense
EXAMPLE: Quan Chi MKX
Type 2: Offensive Suppressive Strategy - in which you force the opponent into situations where their HP will get deleted if they make a mistake. They need to force you to defend.
STRENGTH: Space Control
WEAKNESS: Defense
EXAMPLE: Pyromancer Tanya MKX
Type 3: Defensive Active Strategy - in which you set up situations to lockdown the opponent and play your game, but you have to set it up and make it work
STRENGTH: Inconsistency
WEAKNESS: Inconsistency
EXAMPLE: Hunter Predator, GM Subzero
Type 4: Defensive Passive Strategy - in which you sit across a screen and lay down a minefield for the opponent to get to you.
STRENGTH: Defense
WEAKNESS: Stationary
EXAMPLE: Deadshot
Technically the four archetypes can be set up to have circumstances by which one loses to the other, which loses to the third, which loses to the fourth, etc - in a Rock Paper Scissors methodology, but that quickly becomes stale and boring.
The introduction of universal defensive mechanics such as block breakers alleviates this issue to some degree and makes the game seem "balanced". While it may not be, if the four core principles about deleting the health bar are not overlooked, it will work to some degree.
You're right, the only advantage being the ability to set the tone of the match is not all that balanced, the 2-5% win margin is an imbalance perfectly likened to that of the balance issues of fighting games.
You just completely debunked my point that Chess is one of the most balanced pvp games of all time and that fighting games should not be similar.
Thank you.
The trick is that every character has an equal chance at:
- Deleting the opponent's health bar
- Getting its own health bar deleted
- Preventing the opponent from deleting the health bar
- Circumventing the opponent from preventing it
This breakdown is obviously simplified as fuck but here goes anyway.
So there are essentially permutations of 4 types of pvp variables:
Type 1: Offensive Oppressive Strategy - in which you force the opponent into situations where their HP will get deleted unless they take their turn and force you to defend.
STRENGTH: Pressure
WEAKNESS: Defense
EXAMPLE: Quan Chi MKX
Type 2: Offensive Suppressive Strategy - in which you force the opponent into situations where their HP will get deleted if they make a mistake. They need to force you to defend.
STRENGTH: Space Control
WEAKNESS: Defense
EXAMPLE: Pyromancer Tanya MKX
Type 3: Defensive Active Strategy - in which you set up situations to lockdown the opponent and play your game, but you have to set it up and make it work
STRENGTH: Inconsistency
WEAKNESS: Inconsistency
EXAMPLE: Hunter Predator, GM Subzero
Type 4: Defensive Passive Strategy - in which you sit across a screen and lay down a minefield for the opponent to get to you.
STRENGTH: Defense
WEAKNESS: Stationary
EXAMPLE: Deadshot
Technically the four archetypes can be set up to have circumstances by which one loses to the other, which loses to the third, which loses to the fourth, etc - in a Rock Paper Scissors methodology, but that quickly becomes stale and boring.
The introduction of universal defensive mechanics such as block breakers alleviates this issue to some degree and makes the game seem "balanced". While it may not be, if the four core principles about deleting the health bar are not overlooked, it will work to some degree.
1. There will always be something low tier so with that argument why create characters if they are not going to be used at all (even though they will be used)
2. This dude never played CvS2
3.Variation crises is your own problem not everybody has that problem i know i never have.
4. Gear moves is trash and removed the option for any competitive variation.
5. Locking moves away from most of the playerbase is a trash idea in the first place as they might as well not exist.
1. There will always be something low tier so with that argument why create characters if they are not going to be used at all (even though they will be used)
2. This dude never played CvS2
3.Variation crises is your own problem not everybody has that problem i know i never have.
4. Gear moves is trash and removed the option for any competitive variation.
5. Locking moves away from most of the playerbase is a trash idea in the first place as they might as well not exist.
Interesting read. I personally have no issues with variations so long as they let US decide which moves can go with what(so long as it's balanced of course) like MK X turned me off(aside from the run, 50/50 dominating the game) but with how the variations were limited, as an Ermac zoning player. I hated how we were forced to choose between the variation with projectiles, certain TK attacks vs. one with limited TK attacks and no projectiles and then one that just sucked as far as I'm concerned.
I'm looking forward to being able to modify them myself this time, but the fact that there's no run and I won't be penalized for a few backdashes to get space gives me lots of hope this game will play similar to MK 9 than MK X honestly, the new changes to the variation system has me hopeful/more excited than MK X I'll admit.
so what we need is (k)ustom variation; a loadout. but not abandoned from competetive balance. Would anybody be pissed with that over variations? Also is this what's strongly being implied to be in mk11 at this time?
so what we need is (k)ustom variation; a loadout. but not abandoned from competetive balance. Would anybody be pissed with that over variations? Also is this what's strongly being implied to be in mk11 at this time?
Yeah that's true, I think that's sort of what they're going for in MK11, but will it be custom variations across all modes or will it be like in IJ2? I think that's what everyone really wants to know as it can be a game changer.
I believe Paulo said in a chat one time that the variation system was a mistake so I'm surprised to see them keep up this trend. If they're going to do it, it should be kept to two so the other variation is stronger in areas that the other lacks. I love the idea of being a character loyalist so it's nice to have another variation to fall back on to cover my bad match ups.
R Trash
