The case against variations in FGs (MKX/MK11)

[Vslayer]

I low key thought about naming this thread 'petition to remove variations from MK11'. I don't think I've seen a thread discussing this, but if there is I'm sure y'all will let me know.

There are a lot of reasons why I don't like variations and why I think they didn't work in MKX and why they won't work in MK11 either (or in any FGs for that matter).

1. I get that it can give the impression you have more characters, more diverse and vast choices and game plans for one character, but being able to switch around specials gives you that option without limiting you to a set of specials or taking away certain strings (IE: Cassie's F34 - having to chose between Brawler and Hollywood is an eternal struggle).
   
2. If the only thing that the variation changes are specials (and maybe a string or two), why just not make the specials the focus of the customization like in IJ2? Because that game did it right IMO.
3. There will always be one that is not used or considered lower tier, so why create something only to not have it used at all? Why focus on creating 3 'balanced' variations for a character instead of creating a default character with different specials?
4. This might not affect casual play, but if you play ranked and tournaments and NRS decides they are going to choose the variations or lock them for certain modes, it becomes the same issue.

So my suggestion would be to have the system exactly like in IJ2, where you have your default character for Ranked play and different specials for casual and single player. Thoughts?

 

[VSC_Supreme]

IMO an alternate moves system like INJ2 might as well not exist since they never got to see any play outside of casual online, and even then the resulting gear altering stats made it frustrating (In my opinion) to play. I think the issue with variations in MKX came with classic characters who's kits were now split up, or like mentioned above that some variations were just not worth using, usually because they were really gimmicky.

I don't have a quarrel with the variation system but I do wish they opted instead for 2 variations that focused on different gameplay aspects, offensive/defensive, rushdown/zoning, etc.

Edit: Although with the different gameplay mechanics for MK11, including an offensive/defense meter and a bigger focus on footsies and the like, it's hard to say that a 2 variation system would actually be better for this game.

 

[Wam-Zlay]

Variations in mkx imo have been very interesting and added variety to the game. Even when not all variations have been present in competitive play.

 

[Circus]

So far I'm most interested in Geras and I've been doing a TON of theory crafting on how I'd maximize his gameplan with his variation special moves.

My dream scenario is if he has a variation with:

1. Stepping It Back(2 slot) and Sand Pillar (1 slot)
2. Shifting Sands (1 slot), Sand Pillar (1 slot), and either Quicksand, Sand Simulacrum, or Gauntlet of the Ages.
3. Reverse Time (3 slots)

I believe Sand Pillar and EX sand Pillar are so pivotal to his moveset to anti air back jumps when people want to dodge tick grabs or any command grab attempt. I just don't believe that they'll double up on Sand Pillar in his variations though.

It worries me what they'll pick.

I just don't know if the three variations will be what I ideally want from the style that I want to play.

For example, if they make the Shifting Sands special move in a variation with a bunch of random other special moves that I don't want, I'd be kind of disappointed because I've thought up so many scenarios that would be great with Shifting Sands.

 

[Metin]

You are %100 right about worthless variation system. It is not important as devolopers said..

 

[Vslayer]

IMO an alternate moves system like INJ2 might as well not exist since they never got to see any play outside of casual online, and even then the resulting gear altering stats made it frustrating (In my opinion) to play. I think the issue with variations in MKX came with classic characters who's kits were now split up, or like mentioned above that some variations were just not worth using, usually because they were really gimmicky.

I don't have a quarrel with the variation system but I do wish they opted instead for 2 variations that focused on different gameplay aspects, offensive/defensive, rushdown/zoning, etc.

Edit: Although with the different gameplay mechanics for MK11, including an offensive/defense meter and a bigger focus on footsies and the like, it's hard to say that a 2 variation system would actually be better for this game.

That's a good point, but people who may not play online probably like having new abilities they can use.

Yeah, it's hard to say at this point in the build, I think it doesn't make sense to use the same variation system with the way the new meters are set-up.

It worries me what they'll pick.

I just don't know if the three variations will be what I ideally want from the style that I want to play.

For example, if they make the Shifting Sands special move in a variation with a bunch of random other special moves that I don't want, I'd be kind of disappointed because I've thought up so many scenarios that would be great with Shifting Sands.

Exactly, if you have to count on someone else to create a variation when you are used to a certain set of moves makes no sense competitively and it it's not because they make the builds that it will necessarily be balanced, or the best for the character.

 

[Circus]

Doing away with variations in general isn't going to happen at this point in development imo.

That and I actually LOVE how I could play my variation and it be different from the way you like to play the exact character. My concern still is how the developers will pick these specials for each variation.

The nice thing at least is that as the game gets older, the developers could add more default variations or even switch them around a bit. Once we all get our hands on the game for a while we might even come to a general agreement that custom is the way to go.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

I don't get it. At least from my impression, NRS are addressing many of the things you're whining about.

I get that it can give the impression you have more characters, more diverse and vast choices and game plans for one character, but being able to switch around specials gives you that option without limiting you to a set of specials or taking away certain strings (IE: Cassie's F34 - having to chose between Brawler and Hollywood is an eternal struggle).

This is literally the entire focus of kustom variations.

If the only thing that the variation changes are specials (and maybe a string or two), why just not make the specials the focus of the customization like in IJ2? Because that game did it right IMO.

Seems like this is the direction they're going in, actually. Scorpion was the only character in the reveal build with variation strings.

There will always be one that is not used or considered lower tier, so why create something only to not have it used at all? Why focus on creating 3 'balanced' variations for a character instead of creating a default character with different specials?

This is a pointless argument. You might as well ask "why bother making different characters if some are low tier and not used". And again, that's what looks like they're doing with kustom variations. You have the base character then you add the special moves you want on top of that.

So my suggestion would be to have the system exactly like in IJ2, where you have your default character for Ranked play and different specials for casual and single player. Thoughts?

Yet one more time, seems like this is exactly what they're doing. Preset moves for competitive and kustom variations for casual.

Now as a disclaimer, I don't particularly care for the existence of variations either way. But what I'm saying is that it feels like you're complaining for the sake of complaining, and that you seem to be pretty misinformed about how variations, special moves, and moveset customization are actually going to work in MK11.
By the way I'm glad you didn't choose that original thread title, otherwise I'd have ignored you instantly.

 

[Xelz]

MKX's variation system was designed, in theory, to give characters more answers to more match-ups, thus allowing a character loyalist to counter pick with different variations rather than with different characters. This goal wasn't executed well, however. In practice, specifically pro tournaments, one variation was generally more optimal than others, and players typically stuck with the same variation regardless or switched characters to counter pick.

The variation system could be far more interesting if NRS successfully executes its vision in MK11. Could allowing custom moves create even more versatility and variety if balanced correctly? Absolutely. But even a slight imbalance with custom moves could lead to the discovery of optimal load outs and then you'll see the same carbon-copy version of characters played competitively.

 

[Vslayer]

I don't get it. At least from my impression, NRS are addressing many of the things you're whining about.


This is literally the entire focus of kustom variations.

Seems like this is the direction they're going in, actually. Scorpion was the only character in the reveal build with variation strings.

This is a pointless argument. You might as well ask "why bother making different characters if some are low tier and not used". And again, that's what looks like they're doing with kustom variations. You have the base character then you add the special moves you want on top of that.

Yet one more time, seems like this is exactly what they're doing. Preset moves for competitive and kustom variations for casual.

Now as a disclaimer, I don't particularly care for the existence of variations either way. But what I'm saying is that it feels like you're complaining for the sake of complaining, and that you seem to be pretty misinformed about how variations, special moves, and moveset customization are actually going to work in MK11.
By the way I'm glad you didn't choose that original thread title, otherwise I'd have ignored you instantly.

Why is it a complaint, and not just me throwing things out there because I want to have a discussion about a certain topic? I'm just exploring the idea if we really need variations or not, if all you see it as is a complaint than how can anyone have a discussion about anything in a game? If you see someone's opinion as a complaint or whining then I'm guessing the conversation isn't going to go anywhere. I was curious to hear people's opinion on this as I know my own, and it's just that, my opinion. It's not a verdict, it's just my personal preference.

Y'all need to chill and lighten up a little. Not everything that isn't signing praises is a complaint. I agree, the game isn't out yet, but I was still curious about this specific topic.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Why is it a complaint, and not just me throwing things out there because I want to have a discussion about a certain topic? I'm just exploring the idea if we really need variations or not, if all you see it as is a complaint than how can anyone have a discussion about anything in a game? I was curious to hear people's opinion on this as I know my own, and it's just that, my opinion. It's not a verdict, it's just my personal preference.

Y'all need to chill and lighten up a little. Not everything that isn't signing praises is a complaint. I agree, the game isn't out yet, but I was still curious about this specific topic.

I'm not trying to censor you or shut down this discussion bro. But you clearly seem displeased that variations are back and are expressing this dissatisfaction, i.e you're complaining. Unless if that's not what you're doing?
I just want to let you know that some of your concerns might not be as grave as you're imagining.

 

[Vslayer]

I'm not trying to censor you or shut down this discussion bro. But you clearly seem displeased that variations are back and are expressing this dissatisfaction, i.e you're complaining. Unless if that's not what you're doing?
I just want to let you know that some of your concerns might not be as grave as you're imagining.

I don't mind if they are or are not in a game I'll play it regardless, I was making a case against them, meaning I was asking myself whether are they needed or not, because I feel like the system in IJ2 was really good. And honestly, I wonder why they decided to go back to the MKX system to some degree, is it to set MK apart from Injustice? I don't know. Either way, I'm not trying to predict how a conversation is going to go before it happens, I'm trying to figure out if the conversation is useful or not, you know?

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

why just not make the specials the focus of the customization like in IJ2? Because that game did it right IMO

I don't like variations either, but I disagree with the rotating specials being the right way to do it.

Because these specials in INJ2 were used as augments or gear or whatever the fuck they were called and none of these were usable in tournaments. Like WW, my main, had a cool walk forward shield ability that could have helped vs zoning but because it was a switchable special it wasn't allowed.

I'd rather no variations and if sub has:

ice puddle
slide
ice ball
air axe

and whatever else, then they should all be usable and in his default move list.

 

[Vslayer]

I don't like variations either, but I disagree with the rotating specials being the right way to do it.

Because these specials in INJ2 were used as augments or gear or whatever the fuck they were called and none of these were usable in tournaments. Like WW, my main, had a cool walk forward shield ability that could have helped vs zoning but because it was a switchable special it wasn't allowed.

I'd rather no variations and if sub has:

ice puddle
slide
ice ball
air axe

and whatever else, then they should all be usable and in his default move list.

I agree, in a lot of these cases the specials you could switch out were really useful. That's why I never used them on Robin because my combos or tools would be too different, so I just used the base specials for the character. I feel like that's why I dislike variations, maybe they should just make one or two base ones and not give us the ability to change anything, except cosmetics.

The more I think about, the more I don't think having switchable specials is a good idea either. At least if they have them, make them all useable in ranked.

 

[Crimea]

some characters like Tanya had all three usable and interesting variations

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I agree, in a lot of these cases the specials you could switch out were really useful. That's why I never used them on Robin because my combos or tools would be too different, so I just used the base specials for the character. I feel like that's why I dislike variations, maybe they should just make one or two base ones and not give us the ability to change anything, except cosmetics.

The more I think about, the more I don't think having switchable specials is a good idea either. At least if they have them, make them all useable in ranked.

Yeah exactly. That's why I dislike variations and switchable specials. It removes too many cool aspects from your character.

But I guess I just like eating my cake once I get it. Fuck that not eating it shit.

 

[VSC_Supreme]

The more I think about, the more I don't think having switchable specials is a good idea either. At least if they have them, make them all useable in ranked.

I'm not sure how Kustom Variations will affect this, but I'd argue this is something in favor of the variation system. With Inj2 there were some special moves I never saw or practiced with because they were locked behind something arbitrary. Variations were all legal and available from the start and all able to be played online with ranked.

 

[trufenix]

This was cute back when MKX is run, now that IJ2 has come and gone and people are clammoring for that "old school mkx gameplay" how can you still pretend variations didn't add a ton of value to the experience? I say let it rock, especially now that I can make as many as I want.

 

[aldazo]

I'm all good for no variations, if and only if, NRS copy "Chaos Code" system that let you choose certain ammount of special moves from a bigger pool before each match, plus let you choose your "mobility" option (run, dash, etc), for casual and tournament alike.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

many of the things you're whining about.

While I agree with almost all of your points, criticizing is not necessarily whining

 

[STRYKIE]

Well first and foremost, NRS obviously aren't going to outright 'remove' the variation system from MK11 this far in, but even if variations did get axed at this point, are we suggesting to just combine every existing move they've come up with into the one default form? Some moves are inherently designed in mind with the absence of others. Imagine if Summoner Quan had access to Warlock's armoured scoop in MKX... LOL.

The underused variations in MKX were underused because they were rendered obsolete by a character already having a variation with similar assets, more than they were bad. Variation specific moves in MK11 (at least so far) comparatively feel more like quality of life preferences than outright trying to change the way the character plays. For what it's worth, when I played Scorpion at the reveal build, it still felt more like I was playing the character more than the variation I was using at any given time.

I get what you're saying, but this sounds more like a kustom variations headache, than a variations headache per se.

 

[Gooberking]

I was down for the Cassie love, but as a Brawler, Venomous, Ravenous player I find this idea repugnant.


And no ij2 didn't do it right. It did it all wrong.

 

[Sablicious]

Frankly, I disliked the "variations" in MKX, as much as I disliked the special abilities being locked behind a grind wall (and exclusively to the player-1 side!) in IJ2. In MKX, I only ever used one of Goro's, one of Quan Chi's, mostly one of Jason's and mostly one of Kitana's variations. In IJ2, it was a little more varied; albeit, changing up the specials was more a novelty and for experimentation, than it serving any real purpose -- examples: Enchantress would always need her meter regeneration ability; Darkseid, his reverse beam; Bane, always his default armoured Venom (i.e., Bane could not use his "Supercharge" Venom without losing its armouring properties).

VARIATIONS...

CONS:
• prevents one from using the full suite of a given character's move-set, due to balance.meme
• stymies creativity, with respect to the mix n' matching of char. abilities, at the player's leisure
• delegates the responsibility for the "best" / "balanced" / "most fun" / "ideal" / "default" version of a character to the developers -- which, as Boon has already stated, is still in flux (for M11K) and, therefore, a wholly arbitrary decision (...and likely ending up as not what most want)
• often locks preferred abilities behind a disliked version of a char. -- for example: "Shin" Jason Vorhees: mist teleport + damage buff + healing + "Pursuit" / button mix-up + special move specific cleaver + all Brutalities
>inb4 "muh balance"... in a game dominated by one variation of a half-dozen characters
>inb4 ignoring the obviousness of locking such 'open variations' to a specific, non-ranked / non-"tournament" 'free' mode... so SonicFurry cannot abuse it
• wastes 'limited' (*in the context of bottomless Warn-a-Brother coffers) development resources on creating rather diluted characters -- most of which, few use -- in order to fulfil whatever prerequisites said mechanic demands (e.g., x3 versions per char.); instead focusing on more fleshed-out singular chars., or a bigger roster, or more arenas, or more skins / accoutrements, or... [insert any given shortcoming of past NRS games]
• variations are mostly ham-fisted in implementation -- example: instead of one 'bare-handed' and one 'weapon' variation per char. (the logical template and one that NRS already has blueprints for), the char. variants are seemingly a slap-dash combination of abilities, with little logic behind their creation beyond the E-cancer dubbed "balance"...

"PROS":
- to the lay onlooker, makes a roster look bigger than it is
- it's something one can promote a game with prior to release; even if it ends up sucking donkey gonads -- compare: good A.I. script, full offline versus mode functionality, or "nerdy" ( -Ed Boon, 2019) gameplay changes--which, although potentially ground-breaking for the game and genre, mean little to ¢a$ual$ who are only interested in the next shiny E-thing to use to excuse their Fortnite addiction
- the spurious claim (that Boon has again cited with M11K's variation of "variations") that it allows for coma-free mirror matches -- and, even more spurious, the assumption that it allows people to play the version of the character that they want (...then proceeding to contradict said claim, in the very next sentence, "Trump" style, by confirming "default" variations for all modes but those most inconsequential in nature -- latter modes that may not even work properly offline! *fullretardface.jpeg*)...

Having bullet-pointed all that, I am actually more optimistic with the M11K vision of "variations"... Although, in no way would I bank on the idea coming even close to being perfected--given NRS's track record in this department.

 

[stokedAF]

They were saying it’s better for the competitive scene. Everyone is using a base character variation opposed to their own variation. I get what you are saying, the custom variation in mk11 sounds cool. But the variation is there for competitive, balance in other words. To have this ability you have to sacrifice another, etc.

I’m looking forward to making my own though, I agree.

 

[PapaRegadetho]

Many of you misunderstand the concept of variations and why they were introduced in the first place. It wasnt supposed to be a different character nor it to be super viable in every single MU ,it was there to help you against some troubling MUs and thats it. You get to play your character with three styles against a whole cast. Take an example how bad Unbreakable Sub was,but it was really good against Flame Fist Liu Kang,a variation that had perhaps a few bad MUs in the entire lifespan of mkx. I personally liked them and gave us so much to explore and I welcome them in 11 even without the custom variation being allowed for competetive modes.