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The Batman Pressure System

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I wonder if anyone...you know....a moderator, perhaps...could sticky this? I will add to it in the next few days.
 

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
This leaves you at enough to either release bats and cross-up, apply more pressure with any of your listed options, or throw. You could also jump in and use J2,22 which jails standing and leaves you at advantage for yet more pressure.
im pretty sure jumpins don't jail man, i wish JIs were legit like mk..... unless you mean after grapple on hit.
 

coolwhip

Noob
Rude

As mentioned above, jump-ins don't jail in this game. A good opponent will always interrupt 22 on block for a full combo, especially after a jump in where most opponent's immediate reflex should be to crouch (after the jump in, of course, otherwise they'd get combo'd). So a 22 on block after a jump can still be interrupted with a D1 into special for a full combo, or an uppercut.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Hmm. I was basing the jailing comment on the fact that Lex's Corps Charge is interrupted. My mistake. Feel free to ignore that part.
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
Without canceling into the bats, I think 2, 2 and 1, 2 make what comes next whiff. The other info has been useful. Besides, I still think Batman's mixup game is pretty weak, and one often ends jumping and eating some anti-airs.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Not necessarily. Watch King utilize some of this, and he doesn't always cancel into bats. It depends on hitboxes of characters you're fighting as well.

I've done 22 and 12 without bat cancels and never had any problems.

His mix-up game is fine. You should always mix your jump-ins up and not cross-over predictably.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I just did some testing for you.

After 1,2, a lot of stuff will whiff. This is true. B2 won't and the first hit of B1 strings won't, but the following hits will.
What happens is that after 1,2, Batman moves backwards slightly more than where he was standing when he started the string.

I also tested 2,2 and everything hits just fine. You have to remember that the standing 1 strings have a slight phantom hitbox right in front of his palm that causes the first hit of these strings to reach further than his actual had. Only slightly, but enough to follow up on your +8 after 2,2.

The larger concern with 2,2 is the gap after the first hit, but it is what it is.

Now, when you trait cancel 1,2, every follow up listed still works fine.

I hope this helps.
 
This is good stuff. Something I like to do personally on the corner.

12~MB batarang (+38) b3 b11~call bats b23~release, dash into more pressure. MB batarang guarantees b3 which more or less guarantees b1 in the corner. So there are plenty of spots in here to mix up your opponent.

With that said, The important thing here, is GRABS. The threat of a throw off block advantage needs to always be present. I see far too few throws from bat players, and I ask why?! That extra layer of "do I tech or keep blocking" could be the difference between chipping your opponent a little or scoring a nice 30% off a mix up In to another mix up. I know it's fighting games 101, but with the barrage of negative frames your opponent will be stuck in, the third option of throw becomes THAT much more important for batman. Especially since just blocking low and watching for overheads and kinda shuts him down in the upclose game. Im looking at you Flash.
You might as well do f3 after the MB batarang instead of b3. I swear alot of characters duck under the b3 or can do an attack that ducks under that b3 to make it whiff.

Batman's mix-ups honestly aren't that good anyway because his only overhead is f3 and you can react to it by seeing it, block low all day against batman until you see a f3 and you will never get opened up. And grabbing doesn't help when you fight against good people that tech every single grab. Me and my little bro almost got to that point where we are like ungrabbale, grabs are really easy to react to and tech in this game.

I feel like Batman's pressure is really good but when people get good at blocking how can you possible open them up....
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
You might as well do f3 after the MB batarang instead of b3. I swear alot of characters duck under the b3 or can do an attack that ducks under that b3 to make it whiff.

Batman's mix-ups honestly aren't that good anyway because his only overhead is f3 and you can react to it by seeing it, block low all day against batman until you see a f3 and you will never get opened up. And grabbing doesn't help when you fight against good people that tech every single grab. Me and my little bro almost got to that point where we are like ungrabbale, grabs are really easy to react to and tech in this game.

I feel like Batman's pressure is really good but when people get good at blocking how can you possible open them up....
I can definitely see your point. Which is why I think string staggering, especially with trait as back-up, is helpful.

Take 112, as an example. Granted, you can duck under the first hit. After that though, I believe the string is air tight.

So say an opponent blocks 112. They will either try to poke thinking that you're doing 112, or continue blocking think you are doing 112. Which is where you do 11, and then back 1. Granted, a poke will beat b1, but if the opponent is expecfting 2 in 112, You could open them up that way. Not to mention, you can throw in a neutral/cross-up after a stagger as well.

Of course, it isn't perfect or full-proof. But I think staggering neutral strings with trait, with MB Batarang is the future of Batman pressure.

A word on grabs: I do agree that grabs can definitely be learned to tech on reaction, especially since one button press negates both options. Still, I don't think it should be thrown out of the arsenal completely. And for some reason...I think some character's throws reach further than others in this game. You would know better than I, of course, but as an example, I think MMH's throw reaches further than your average throw.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So say an opponent blocks 112. They will either try to poke thinking that you're doing 113, or continue blocking think you are doing 112

Meant to say "113"
 

Desperdicio

Tell me, do you bleed?
I just did some testing for you.

After 1,2, a lot of stuff will whiff. This is true. B2 won't and the first hit of B1 strings won't, but the following hits will.
What happens is that after 1,2, Batman moves backwards slightly more than where he was standing when he started the string.

I also tested 2,2 and everything hits just fine. You have to remember that the standing 1 strings have a slight phantom hitbox right in front of his palm that causes the first hit of these strings to reach further than his actual had. Only slightly, but enough to follow up on your +8 after 2,2.

The larger concern with 2,2 is the gap after the first hit, but it is what it is.

Now, when you trait cancel 1,2, every follow up listed still works fine.

I hope this helps.
Thanks for the info, it has been helpful. And you're right, it's because of the hitboxes. You said you were testing it against Lex Luthor, and he has one of the biggest hitboxes in the game, I think.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Yeah, sadly the best character to test frame traps/gaps with happens to be one of the biggest. The burdens of solo labbing.
 

CommonNick

Europe, PSN: "CommonNick"
I swear alot of characters duck under the b3 or can do an attack that ducks under that b3 to make it whiff.
block low all day against batman until you see a f3 and you will never get opened up.
Thanks :cool: I knew searching inside the batman forums will only do good.
 

coolwhip

Noob
You might as well do f3 after the MB batarang instead of b3. I swear alot of characters duck under the b3 or can do an attack that ducks under that b3 to make it whiff.

Batman's mix-ups honestly aren't that good anyway because his only overhead is f3 and you can react to it by seeing it, block low all day against batman until you see a f3 and you will never get opened up. And grabbing doesn't help when you fight against good people that tech every single grab. Me and my little bro almost got to that point where we are like ungrabbale, grabs are really easy to react to and tech in this game.

I feel like Batman's pressure is really good but when people get good at blocking how can you possible open them up....
Yeah, some attacks do go under Batman's B3.

As far as mix-ups go, he doesn't have many authentic ones. Obviously, in the heat of the moment, nobody's going to block everything (unless it's Chris G, or your brother during that awesome 33 second block string, lol), so eventually they will get opened up. Anyway, Batman's pressure is good as it is, without mix-ups or 50/50's, but it does have some flaws that can be exploited (holes in strings being a notable one).
 

coolwhip

Noob
Take 112, as an example. Granted, you can duck under the first hit. After that though, I believe the string is air tight.
Unfortunately that is not the case. The 2 in 112 will occasionally whiff on some characters in some situations, especially after jump-ins (still not sure what causes this).
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Unfortunately that is not the case. The 2 in 112 will occasionally whiff on some characters in some situations, especially after jump-ins (still not sure what causes this).
Doesn't 2 in 112 hit mid?
 

coolwhip

Noob
Doesn't 2 in 112 hit mid?
It's supposed to, yes. But I assure you, it whiffs occasionally, especially after jump-ins. Play the AI on very hard and keep trying to do it, you'll see he'll either poke or full combo punish you for it when it whiffs.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
It's supposed to, yes. But I assure you, it whiffs occasionally, especially after jump-ins. Play the AI on very hard and keep trying to do it, you'll see he'll either poke or full combo punish you for it when it whiffs.
I'll need to look into the cast and see how this works.

What kind of settings should I use in training mode for testing this, do you think?
 

coolwhip

Noob
I'll need to look into the cast and see how this works.

What kind of settings should I use in training mode for testing this, do you think?
If I had to guess (I need to test this too), I'd say put Catwoman on crouch block, and go for the string for max distance (ie the farthest you can be from her without the first hit actually whiffing).
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
All right. I'll get on it. If this is true, then this is huge. Of course, a "mid" not hitting mid wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.