Tekken 8 is being designed around "Aggression" and much less "Footsies"

[Gooberking]

Is a game being more accessible or "aggressive" bad, though?

There is nothing wrong with "A" game being aggressive, but is there some shortage of them that required Tekken shift towards being one of them?

No idea how big a shift it is yet though. I am getting the impression people are complaining about stuff that isn't actually new and saying "Tekken's changed man".

I'm buying no matter how the adjustments shake out, but the only thing I really wanted was an in match "punish" counter indicator.

 

[molambo]

Is a game being more accessible or "aggressive" bad, though?

overall? no...for you personally? depends on your taste so the answer can be yes but at the same time you could enjoy these things so...

 

[Eddy Wang]

played since the servers were opened, i'm so tired lol.

overall the game isn't too complicated to play, traditionalists will struggle with meter management, but game looks fun to play.

execution wise isn't really as hard, mishimas are easy as hell in this game as well.

Jin feels ready

 

[Eji1700]

Just from an outside perspective....it looks like fucking tekken. Granted players haven't picked up on the meter use totally yet, and kazama went devil in the middle of a match and said "fuck footsies" and shot the fuck out of jin with lasers, but like....90% of everything i've seen..it's still fucking tekken.

 

[M2Dave]

@Eji1700 and @molambo

Interesting points from both of you.

Modern fighting games are limiting execution because the perception among developers is that execution alienates casual players. In order to compensate for the lack of execution, decisions are being promoted more than ever before. Street Fighter 6 is currently the prime example of this fighting game philosophy. Essentially, being competent at the game involves making wise decisions about your use of the drive gauge. Make proper use and you give yourself an opportunity to win. However, if you overextend, you place yourself in the "burnout" state and you likely lose. Furthermore, you also have to pay close attention to your opponent's drive gauge. Consequently, aside from the obvious meta of depleting your opponent's life in order to win, there is a sub meta of depleting your opponent's drive gauge in order to win.

Tekken 8's heat system will probably provide a similar meta as far as decision-making is concerned.

I keep criticizng Mortal Kombat 11 because the game has neither execution nor decision-making. Few to no decisions have to be made about fatal blows, krushing blows, breakaways, and the plethora of weak up options. "Just fucking do it" is the motto of the game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@Eji1700 and @molambo

Interesting points from both of you.

Modern fighting games are limiting execution because the perception among developers is that execution alienates casual players. In order to compensate for the lack of execution, decisions are being promoted more than ever before. Street Fighter 6 is currently the prime example of this fighting game philosophy. Essentially, being competent at the game involves making wise decisions about your use of the drive gauge. Make proper use and you give yourself an opportunity to win. However, if you overextend, you place yourself in the "burnout" state and you likely lose. Furthermore, you also have to pay close attention to your opponent's drive gauge. Consequently, aside from the obvious meta of depleting your opponent's life in order to win, there is a sub meta of depleting your opponent's drive gauge in order to win.

Tekken 8's heat system will probably provide a similar meta as far as decision-making is concerned.

I keep criticizng Mortal Kombat 11 because the game has neither execution nor decision-making. Few to no decisions have to be made about fatal blows, krushing blows, breakaways, and the plethora of weak up options. "Just fucking do it" is the motto of the game.

Disagree about breakaways. If you breakaway in a predictable fashion and your opponent reads it, you can absolutely lose your life for it. We’ve seen plenty of pivotal tournament matches at majors that swung because someone autopiloted a breakaway and paid dearly for it.

 

[Eji1700]

Disagree about breakaways. If you breakaway in a predictable fashion and your opponent reads it, you can absolutely lose your life for it. We’ve seen plenty of pivotal tournament matches at majors that swung because someone autopiloted a breakaway and paid dearly for it.

It's still so so shallow in comparsion to basically every other burst/combo break system worth anything. Hell portions of the cast can do jack all about it, and in many combo's it's clear to both players that there's absolutely going to be no breakaway. Yes the counterplay exists, but given that there's so many good examples to take from it's just depressing how mediocre it is.

And that's before you consider that it commits the CARDINAL SIN of letting you punish people for hitting you in some situations, which just passively affects combos in the dumbest of ways.

Forgot i wanted to touch on this-
"Modern fighting games are limiting execution because the perception among developers is that execution alienates casual players. "

I'll go farther and say it's not just casuals. I am not in school anymore. I do not have the time I did when I was practicing GG combos and the like (and I was NEVER good at the game, just ok at doing execution heavy combos). It can feel rough to pick up a fighter, thinking about all the neat traps/setups/strategies/mixups/whatevers you want to do and then just slam into the wall.

I got pretty damn decent at rising thunder in part because it was nice to have something that just let me get to the strategy layer without having to drill combos for hours, which can often feel like the worst part (oh i got the hits and the reads, but i dropped everything and still lost sucks). After that died, I sorta drifted away from fighters for a good long time. Picking up SFV bison was rough as hell as i'd lost basically all my execution (and he's fucking cake). I got there, and I'm fine with how hard it was, but I really don't relish something being that much harder. I can still do it, but I sure don't miss it.

 

[M2Dave]

Forgot i wanted to touch on this-
"Modern fighting games are limiting execution because the perception among developers is that execution alienates casual players. "

I'll go farther and say it's not just casuals. I am not in school anymore. I do not have the time I did when I was practicing GG combos and the like (and I was NEVER good at the game, just ok at doing execution heavy combos). It can feel rough to pick up a fighter, thinking about all the neat traps/setups/strategies/mixups/whatevers you want to do and then just slam into the wall.

I got pretty damn decent at rising thunder in part because it was nice to have something that just let me get to the strategy layer without having to drill combos for hours, which can often feel like the worst part (oh i got the hits and the reads, but i dropped everything and still lost sucks). After that died, I sorta drifted away from fighters for a good long time. Picking up SFV bison was rough as hell as i'd lost basically all my execution (and he's fucking cake). I got there, and I'm fine with how hard it was, but I really don't relish something being that much harder. I can still do it, but I sure don't miss it.

Many gray-bearded men will disagree with you, but I actually agree.

I dislike Street Fighter 4 for this (and other) reasons. What is the point of having one or two 1 frame links for staple combos?

Introducing execution to a move or combo makes sense when the reward is very high. But when the reward is low? Why? Many of Street Fighter 4's execution requirements are nonsensical.

I like Capcom's direction with Street Fighter 6. The game still has plenty of stuff to practice and lab.

Tekken 8 will, too.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

It's still so so shallow in comparsion to basically every other burst/combo break system worth anything. Hell portions of the cast can do jack all about it, and in many combo's it's clear to both players that there's absolutely going to be no breakaway. Yes the counterplay exists, but given that there's so many good examples to take from it's just depressing how mediocre it is.

And that's before you consider that it commits the CARDINAL SIN of letting you punish people for hitting you in some situations, which just passively affects combos in the dumbest of ways.

Forgot i wanted to touch on this-
"Modern fighting games are limiting execution because the perception among developers is that execution alienates casual players. "

I'll go farther and say it's not just casuals. I am not in school anymore. I do not have the time I did when I was practicing GG combos and the like (and I was NEVER good at the game, just ok at doing execution heavy combos). It can feel rough to pick up a fighter, thinking about all the neat traps/setups/strategies/mixups/whatevers you want to do and then just slam into the wall.

I got pretty damn decent at rising thunder in part because it was nice to have something that just let me get to the strategy layer without having to drill combos for hours, which can often feel like the worst part (oh i got the hits and the reads, but i dropped everything and still lost sucks). After that died, I sorta drifted away from fighters for a good long time. Picking up SFV bison was rough as hell as i'd lost basically all my execution (and he's fucking cake). I got there, and I'm fine with how hard it was, but I really don't relish something being that much harder. I can still do it, but I sure don't miss it.

Not for an MK game, though — typically we have breaker, which has absolutely no counterplay, no thought involved other than whether you have meter. Introducing something to the franchise that requires you to think about the possible consequences of mashing an escape (or whether your opponent would) was definitely a step into a more thoughtful direction.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

Initially when I saw the heat mechanics I was very turned off by the apparent direction of the Tekken franchise. I stopped playing T7 in late 2019 when Leroy was released and my long time sparring partner had quit the game entirely before that. Fahkumram was released later, following in the footsteps of Leroy's stupidity and braindeadness. What little tabs I kept on the game, everyone seemed to keep getting buffs. Better frame data, better range. New strings for even more wall carry for characters that didn't need them. If someone had a mid-mid string, they just had to get a safe-on-block natural mid-high extension. If a character didn't have a flip over wall combo ender for stupid damage they just had to get one for some reason. Even as a Heihachi main I could not agree with the buffs he received, more range on his jab? OK, but I dunno it seems a bit much. Df1 has more range? OK, this is just stupid, already one of the best 13 frame pokes in the game with extensions and now it's even better, why? Ws1 buffed to 13 frame start up? OK I guess, stupid change but seems in line with the rest of the stupidity of everyone getting a 13 frame while standing punish that knocks down and does hella damage.

After watching people play the beta and in this case, judging from Bryan as an example, it seems they have decided to tone things down a bit. Better damage and wall carry seems locked behind the heat system. Qcb2,4 and fF4 do not extend combos and fF4 no longer launches on counterhit, instead you have to use d3+4,2 and jet uppercut, the qcf4-series and b2-series still serve as a combo extender. Taunt follow-ups scale. F2,1,4 does 42 damage but post taunt it only does 29 damage. There are new srings but they do not lead to the same damage.

As for general system changes, backdashes seem to have been nerfed all across the board but sidewalking seems more effective for evading stuff. I was told several magic 4 CH's have been removed and get up 3 no longer launches on counterhit.

It seems heat will have 2 main uses, blow it all on damage and wall carry after you launch someone, or use it on moves to gain frame advantage and pushback. You could use the pushback on blocked heat moves and the dash that follows to escape your opponent's wall pressure or you could use it to push your opponent to the wall. Stages seem bigger than in T7. If all these changes succeed in limiting combo damage, wall carry and oppressive wall pressure I'd say the game is headed in a healthier direction. There are some oddities like Kazuya's new df3+4 series and the last hit doing absurd damage but that will most likely get nerfed. Chip damage on big damage moves on block and recoverable health are there to encourage aggression but I don't think they are going to be as impactful as people are making them out to be. The pace and flow of the game seem the same as in T7.

I don't think anybody wants to go back to or keep playing a version of Tekken that's like T5R or Tag 2 where you are handicapped unless you can skate around the screen with Mishimas, abuse sidestep-block and chuck electrics with impunity and it doesn't matter if they hit, get blocked or even whiff since you can barely whiff punish an electric due to the fast recovery unless you also have an electric or a fast long range shoulder like Paul, Feng or AK. Especially now when hitboxes are allowed in tournaments that type of playstyle would just be too good. Try playing against a good hitbox player using Kazumi in T7 on an infinite stage and you get a sense of how lame that is.

All in all if you liked previous Tekken games you should like T8 once you get used to the game systems. Now we will just have to wait and see for our first T8 original character designed for the new system. I really want them to stay out of braindead design choices like a million strings with different enders or cancels that lead to command dashes with mix-ups and plus a million on block 50/50 guessing situations from heat dash, armored launchers and other MK X style crap.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

I've been seeing a bit negativity towards T8 from people like KingJae, FrameWhisperer, Mainman and LilMajin. Now really isn't the time for Tekken to slip up, they got to the top because SFV was such a fuckup at the time. But now the CapGods are back in control, Namco can't be doing this fucky shit. They need to listen to the community

Its speculation for sure, but you can see the developers' mindset pretty clearly. Even back in T7 when they made Hellsweep track to both sides and Murray said "why would you want to sidestep when you can just block and launch everytime" the community hated it so much they removed it, but it seems like they're doubling down on it. Frame made a really good point about catering a game towards offense. He said no matter how much focus you put into offensive play in a game, you're simultaneously putting emphasis on defensive play because for one player to be doing all this sick block string pressure and mixups, another has to sit there and defend it. The difference is how much agency you have in your defensive play. Can you dodge and weave with your movement? Or are you just going to be blocking and trading mixups with your opponent over and over

Slowdown is sick because it rarely ever actually affects the mechanics of a match. Its just a little visual flare for the end of a round. But Murray and Harada both have been on endless loops of how much they want the game to look good for Esports spectators. They want shit to be flashy, explosive, big moves and launchers. Which is fucking stupid because the times Tekken 7 was at its absolute apex of FGC attention is when we were watching people try to take down Saint's Jack 7, the most basic character in Tekken. Its when we watched Arslan dominate using Kazumi with literally 3 fucking moves. T7 became a joke with Leroy. That overpowered, overwhelming shit became boring to watch. He had all the crazy launchers, the orbital heel, the damage, but it was all hollow.

I think they need to avoid being an offensive heavy game as this isn't them. I think people gotta stop doing that and listen to your fans. Tekken isn't small like others Tekken is very big with a lot of good players. Catering to offense is what led to a game like DBZ Fighters having to go out of their way to buff defense and tone down some of the insane pressure options some characters had in that game because who would have thought no one wants to be stuck blocking for 30 seconds.

 

[M2Dave]

Not for an MK game, though — typically we have breaker, which has absolutely no counterplay, no thought involved other than whether you have meter. Introducing something to the franchise that requires you to think about the possible consequences of mashing an escape (or whether your opponent would) was definitely a step into a more thoughtful direction.

The introduction of anti-breakaways was fine. The implementation was egregious, particularly upon release.

The difference between anti-breakaways in Mortal Kombat 11 and combo breakers in Mortal Kombat 9 and Mortal Kombat 10 is that meter has to be earned in the latter. Meter management mattered and affected the quantity of combo breakers to one or two per round for the majority of characters. By contrast, meter regenerates in Mortal Kombat 11, leading some characters to breakaway three to four times per round, often with an opportunity to punish you, which casual and tournament players alike despise.

I do not associate any gameplay mechanics in Mortal Kombat 11 with decision making. The further Mortal Kombat 1 distances itself from Mortal Kombat 11 the better chance it has of becoming a good fighting game. The fact that the community is ecstatic that "combos are back" tells you a lot about Mortal Kombat 11. I have never seen a community celebrate such a rudimentary aspect of fighting games that has been a part of the genre since 1991, yet that is how much damage Mortal Kombat 11 has done to the series and the community.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The difference between anti-breakaways in Mortal Kombat 11 and combo breakers in Mortal Kombat 9 and Mortal Kombat 10 is that meter has to be earned in the latter. Meter management mattered and affected the quantity of combo breakers to one or two per round for the majority of characters. By contrast, meter regenerates in Mortal Kombat 11, leading some characters to breakaway three to four times per round, often with an opportunity to punish you, which casual and tournament players alike despise.

Haha, 'earned'. If you characterize Kabal as earning his meter, I'm not sure what to tell you. Some characters in MK9 build meter as an afterthought, others struggle greatly, and to have to work in on a character like that, only for them to have a breaker available, always, is just as detrimental to balance. This situation also exacerbated balance issues in Injustice as well. And with no decision-making involved in it for the side with advantage, as they usually built meter automatically by way of the mechanics built into their meta (zoning, cancels, etc).

I think it's worth admitting that this is more complex of an issue than people make it out to be.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Haha, 'earned'. If you characterize Kabal as earning his meter, I'm not sure what to tell you. Some characters in MK9 build meter as an afterthought, others struggle greatly, and to have to work in on a character like that, only for them to have a breaker available, always, is just as detrimental to balance. This situation also exacerbated balance issues in Injustice as well. And with no decision-making involved in it for the side with advantage, as they usually built meter automatically by way of the mechanics built into their meta (zoning, cancels, etc).

I think it's worth admitting that this is more complex of an issue than people make it out to be.

From my time in the stress test, MK1's meter builds super fast, I'm talking probably one of the faster rates out of all NRS games I've played to date. Is this a stress test thing? Perhaps, but I felt like I always had meter. Kabal still had to "earn" his meter, just not as hard as others(he got that meter gain-wage gap), I feel like in MK1 they made everyone have the ability to just kind of mindlessly build meter.

 

[NHDR]

@Eddy Wang

Can you provide more insight when you say the Mishimas are easy to use? Unless they changed the inputs, I'm gonna assume the wavuwavu is still the same, and they will still have above-average execution requirements.

Haven't played the beta so any insight would be great! Thanks!

 

[Rude]

The introduction of anti-breakaways was fine. The implementation was egregious, particularly upon release.

The difference between anti-breakaways in Mortal Kombat 11 and combo breakers in Mortal Kombat 9 and Mortal Kombat 10 is that meter has to be earned in the latter. Meter management mattered and affected the quantity of combo breakers to one or two per round for the majority of characters. By contrast, meter regenerates in Mortal Kombat 11, leading some characters to breakaway three to four times per round, often with an opportunity to punish you, which casual and tournament players alike despise.

I do not associate any gameplay mechanics in Mortal Kombat 11 with decision making. The further Mortal Kombat 1 distances itself from Mortal Kombat 11 the better chance it has of becoming a good fighting game. The fact that the community is ecstatic that "combos are back" tells you a lot about Mortal Kombat 11. I have never seen a community celebrate such a rudimentary aspect of fighting games that has been a part of the genre since 1991, yet that is how much damage Mortal Kombat 11 has done to the series and the community.

This just isn't true. The most you can breakaway per round is twice and that is if you do nothing else with your Meyer. The math doesn't work out to three or four times. It just doesn't.

 

[Gooberking]

I think the "earned" vs not conversation is generally off the mark of what was really bothering people. A lot of when people complained about free meter in MK11 it started to sound like they were more bothered by how much meter people always seemed to have which is a very different and I think intentional thing.

It wasn't that MK11 gave everyone meter for free, it was the seemingly endless amount of meter everyone seemed to have which meant there was no ownis on the player for thinking about meter. You never felt starved for meter, and you could generally assume you had it at all times.

My guess is that was intentional design decision in that they didn't want to frustrate players by restricting them and meter was more a method to prevent players from looping certain scenarios indefinitely. Regardless of what route they took they would have amped the meter built or regen up high enough that casual players aren't constantly running into meter starvation - because that feels bad to play and means less cool looking stuff happens. If you have meter you can do what you want when you want, and you can do all the cool things. Cranking down the meter build would force more intentional play, but does that "feel good"? Does that let people "have fun"? Is it entertaining to watch? In a non-competitive sense less meter is likely just a no win strategy.

I have to think building on a common base of regen would be far easier to balance around than the traditional route. I think both are interesting and flawed in their own ways and that may be as it should be or at least ok. Earned seems like it has more problems but whatever. From a spectator perspective there isn't much of a dumber thing in fighting games than watching two pros whiff full screen moves over and over in mutual agreement trying to "Earn" their meter.

I'm curious what a hybrid system would play like. I think that is basically the only other option

 

[SaltShaker]

@Eddy Wang

Can you provide more insight when you say the Mishimas are easy to use? Unless they changed the inputs, I'm gonna assume the wavuwavu is still the same, and they will still have above-average execution requirements.

Haven't played the beta so any insight would be great! Thanks!

More input leniency and Heat giving away free EWGF probably is where it's coming from.

But @Eddy Wang can you also confirm how is the netcode? I have heard mixed responses on this, and as much as I love my FGs, I'm not signing up for bad net play in 2023.

 

[JJvercetti]

More input leniency and Heat giving away free EWGF probably is where it's coming from.

But @Eddy Wang can you also confirm how is the netcode? I have heard mixed responses on this, and as much as I love my FGs, I'm not signing up for bad net play in 2023.

It feels better than T7 but only by a bit. When I played the beta, you get 3 options::
Prioritize Graphics
Standard
Prioritize Response

I obviously chose Response and my short assessment is DO NOT ACCEPT WIFI, it does not matter how many bars. There is a change in the rollback buffer as I do get a lot more rollback states especially when you see the opponent doing BDC. It also feels like there is some input delay at times, this seemed to happen when I got matched up with people outside of europe. (This beta doesnt give you the option to search in region)

 

[SaltShaker]

It feels better than T7 but only by a bit. When I played the beta, you get 3 options::
Prioritize Graphics
Standard
Prioritize Response

I obviously chose Response and my short assessment is DO NOT ACCEPT WIFI, it does not matter how many bars. There is a change in the rollback buffer as I do get a lot more rollback states especially when you see the opponent doing BDC. It also feels like there is some input delay at times, this seemed to happen when I got matched up with people outside of europe. (This beta doesnt give you the option to search in region)

Thanks, and by the sound of this I'm not too optimistic then. Usually these betas have "even better" netcode than release due to the smaller population. I'll have to keep my eyes out, because if it's close to T7 I'm not gonna go too hard with MK1 likely to have strong netcode and SF6 having it already.

 

[Eddy Wang]

More input leniency and Heat giving away free EWGF probably is where it's coming from.

But @Eddy Wang can you also confirm how is the netcode? I have heard mixed responses on this, and as much as I love my FGs, I'm not signing up for bad net play in 2023.

I feels better than tekken 7 for sure, 3 bars doesn't feel like underwater anymore and you can punish negative moves on block.
I reduced to response which allowed me to play most of the african continent at 0 to 2 frame lags of difference.

Only with 2 bar connections i was getting a 6f lag difference and the game was running better than tekken 7 at 2 bars lmao.

@Eddy Wang

Can you provide more insight when you say the Mishimas are easy to use? Unless they changed the inputs, I'm gonna assume the wavuwavu is still the same, and they will still have above-average execution requirements.

Haven't played the beta so any insight would be great! Thanks!

The input leniency definitely feels easier, i could CH df2 PEWGF with Kazuya multiple times
I could buffer EWHF out of heat dashes
and when in heat Mishimas can do Electrics without just frames, but consumes heat.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Initially when I saw the heat mechanics I was very turned off by the apparent direction of the Tekken franchise. I stopped playing T7 in late 2019 when Leroy was released and my long time sparring partner had quit the game entirely before that. Fahkumram was released later, following in the footsteps of Leroy's stupidity and braindeadness. What little tabs I kept on the game, everyone seemed to keep getting buffs. Better frame data, better range. New strings for even more wall carry for characters that didn't need them. If someone had a mid-mid string, they just had to get a safe-on-block natural mid-high extension. If a character didn't have a flip over wall combo ender for stupid damage they just had to get one for some reason. Even as a Heihachi main I could not agree with the buffs he received, more range on his jab? OK, but I dunno it seems a bit much. Df1 has more range? OK, this is just stupid, already one of the best 13 frame pokes in the game with extensions and now it's even better, why? Ws1 buffed to 13 frame start up? OK I guess, stupid change but seems in line with the rest of the stupidity of everyone getting a 13 frame while standing punish that knocks down and does hella damage.

After watching people play the beta and in this case, judging from Bryan as an example, it seems they have decided to tone things down a bit. Better damage and wall carry seems locked behind the heat system. Qcb2,4 and fF4 do not extend combos and fF4 no longer launches on counterhit, instead you have to use d3+4,2 and jet uppercut, the qcf4-series and b2-series still serve as a combo extender. Taunt follow-ups scale. F2,1,4 does 42 damage but post taunt it only does 29 damage. There are new srings but they do not lead to the same damage.

As for general system changes, backdashes seem to have been nerfed all across the board but sidewalking seems more effective for evading stuff. I was told several magic 4 CH's have been removed and get up 3 no longer launches on counterhit.

It seems heat will have 2 main uses, blow it all on damage and wall carry after you launch someone, or use it on moves to gain frame advantage and pushback. You could use the pushback on blocked heat moves and the dash that follows to escape your opponent's wall pressure or you could use it to push your opponent to the wall. Stages seem bigger than in T7. If all these changes succeed in limiting combo damage, wall carry and oppressive wall pressure I'd say the game is headed in a healthier direction. There are some oddities like Kazuya's new df3+4 series and the last hit doing absurd damage but that will most likely get nerfed. Chip damage on big damage moves on block and recoverable health are there to encourage aggression but I don't think they are going to be as impactful as people are making them out to be. The pace and flow of the game seem the same as in T7.

I don't think anybody wants to go back to or keep playing a version of Tekken that's like T5R or Tag 2 where you are handicapped unless you can skate around the screen with Mishimas, abuse sidestep-block and chuck electrics with impunity and it doesn't matter if they hit, get blocked or even whiff since you can barely whiff punish an electric due to the fast recovery unless you also have an electric or a fast long range shoulder like Paul, Feng or AK. Especially now when hitboxes are allowed in tournaments that type of playstyle would just be too good. Try playing against a good hitbox player using Kazumi in T7 on an infinite stage and you get a sense of how lame that is.

All in all if you liked previous Tekken games you should like T8 once you get used to the game systems. Now we will just have to wait and see for our first T8 original character designed for the new system. I really want them to stay out of braindead design choices like a million strings with different enders or cancels that lead to command dashes with mix-ups and plus a million on block 50/50 guessing situations from heat dash, armored launchers and other MK X style crap.

Jin is already everything you feared, His Zen was redisigned entirely, he has a power crush high safe homing attack, a low chop, a mid that low crushes and it's plus, a mid string poke that can be cancelled, and he can do electric from stances without just frames.

On the side of the damage, the damage in general is similar to season 2, however there is a twist, a lot of ppl to heat burt into heat dash and the only thing this does it's wall carry, it doesn't give damage as heat bursts scales down damage in combos, i founded very counter intuitive my opponents keep wasting their resources for that, when they could expand wall carry by not using extensions just like tekken 6.

Heat burst it's also invincible against grounded normals, you can only beat it if your character it's in the air or maybe you did a rage art.

 

[M2Dave]

Haha, 'earned'. If you characterize Kabal as earning his meter, I'm not sure what to tell you. Some characters in MK9 build meter as an afterthought, others struggle greatly, and to have to work in on a character like that, only for them to have a breaker available, always, is just as detrimental to balance. This situation also exacerbated balance issues in Injustice as well. And with no decision-making involved in it for the side with advantage, as they usually built meter automatically by way of the mechanics built into their meta (zoning, cancels, etc).

I think it's worth admitting that this is more complex of an issue than people make it out to be.

Not really, considering that the issue has already been resolved in Mortal Kombat 1. Players complained that they were consistently being forced to do launchers into uppercuts so NRS made the proper adjustments. Current fighting game fans, casual and tournament players alike, seem to value combos as well as the skill, expression, and hype that they bring along. Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 also provide lots of combo creativity and freedom.

Mentioning Kabal, who is the most broken modern NRS character, is a straw man because you can cite Kabal in order to make any argument that fits your agenda.

"Blocks strings, armor, and anti-zoning are overpowered in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

"Zoning, run away, and defense are too strong in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

Etc.

 

[Eji1700]

Not really, considering that the issue has already been resolved in Mortal Kombat 1. Players complained that they were consistently being forced to do launchers into uppercuts so NRS made the proper adjustments. Current fighting game fans, casual and tournament players alike, seem to value combos as well as the skill, expression, and hype that they bring along. Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 also provide lots of combo creativity and freedom.

Mentioning Kabal, who is the most broken modern NRS character, is a straw man because you can cite Kabal in order to make any argument that fits your agenda.

"Blocks strings, armor, and anti-zoning are overpowered in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

"Zoning, run away, and defense are too strong in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

Etc.

MK Breakaway nonsense:
Yeah kabal's a lousy example. If he actually needed to use meter to accomplish things, MK9's system would be better. Likewise, if MK11 had more characters who could punish breakaways, and didn't allow you to punish the person doing the combo, it'd be better.

It's not a "simple thing" to make a breakout system, but MK11 feels like they ignored known wisdom. Is there no place for a "punish them for hitting you" combo breaker? Probably not. I'm sure someone sufficiently creative could come up with a way to balance that and make it an interesting aspect of the game. MK11 is not that, and yet it allows it. Worse, they had to patch in a way to really punish the break.

To me it looks like badly targeting casuals. I get that getting blown up for trying to get out of a combo can feel awful, and i get that getting to punish someone who was just beating the hell out of you feels nice. Unfortunately the way these things were done in MK probably doesn't attract many casuals, and might even drive more away due to how it affects the overall game. When EVO looks like a snooze fest it's that many fewer players who're going to consider picking it up, or if someone watches some high level matches and see's it's not interesting enough they might drop it at the start. Hell I think the same flawed logic is why the defensive options are split from offensive options, which again can be ok but wasn't great in 11.

I just don't understand why they tried so hard to reinvent the wheel. They had a good system with some edge case balance stuff. It's nice to be able to balance the system on a character by character basis by making them more meter hungry. 11's system is just "do you have major combo routes that get blown up by breakaway" and then eventually "do you have a viable move and good followup to punish break's". It just doesn't add much and mostly gets in the way.

With 1, i'm excited to see them upping the cost of breakways and making kameo's a part of it.

I think the other "try to make casual's happy" thing that really isn't well handled by NRS is the instance that we see more of their long as hell cinematic supers, but since that's now just based on life, they don't have to worry about "will anyone use these if it's competing with combo breaks". 3 bars for a breakaway that can't be punished in a game where meter looks to build fast is more than fair. More importantly, while you can't punish the break, you can force a "shields down" moment by hitting their kameo. This is a very clever way to make hitting assists more important, and has lots of obvious implications for the match.

Actually Tekken 8 stuff:
Anyways this is all off topic for the thread god knows. I've been sporadically watching the matches that have come out, just to see how much the flow of the game changes from people getting more used to the heat system. Watched some Aris since he's the only name I remember from the scene, and while there's certainly some heat mode wackiness, i have to say it looks like it's just emphasizing what makes tekken tekken, rather than undercutting the core gameplay.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Not really, considering that the issue has already been resolved in Mortal Kombat 1. Players complained that they were consistently being forced to do launchers into uppercuts so NRS made the proper adjustments. Current fighting game fans, casual and tournament players alike, seem to value combos as well as the skill, expression, and hype that they bring along. Street Fighter 6 and Tekken 8 also provide lots of combo creativity and freedom.

Mentioning Kabal, who is the most broken modern NRS character, is a straw man because you can cite Kabal in order to make any argument that fits your agenda.

"Blocks strings, armor, and anti-zoning are overpowered in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

"Zoning, run away, and defense are too strong in NRS games because of Mortal Kombat 9 Kabal."

Etc.

It wasn't just Kabal. A number of characters built meter incessantly, which helped make their MUs far more lopsided. Cyrax, Kenshi, Freddy, Sonya, Skarlet, etc.

No one is stating that an individual mechanic by itself is the reason for a character being so dominant, but the imbalance in the way characters gain meter (and how that interacts with breakers, wagers, and armor) tends to make the rich richer in NRS titles. This is also why SF6 decided to start the entire cast with full Drive Meter (which, coincidentally, was seen as a welcome gameplay decision even though it's not 'earned').