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Match-Up Discussion - Shirai Ryu Tanya Matchup Feedback vs Takeda (Shirai Ryu)

Pleasa

#NerfMisterChief
Had back to back 0-3 sessions vs two different Tanya players last night (with hardly zero MU experience vs her).. Recorded them in hopes to get feedback and discuss potential strategies against this new character...

As always feedback is appreciated:

Takeda (Shirai Ryu) vs Tanya (Dragon Naginata)


Takeda (Shirai Ryu) vs Tanya (Pyromancer)

 
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Maevar

Shirai-Ronin
hey dude, please change them as currently they are "private videos", thx! : )
Also I believe you should be the punisher in Tanya MU's i..e. wait for them to make a mistake
 

Pleasa

#NerfMisterChief
hey dude, please change them as currently they are "private videos", thx! : )
Also I believe you should be the punisher in Tanya MU's i..e. wait for them to make a mistake
Sorry about that, meant to have them unlisted but set it to private instead... Should be fixed now. :)
 

protools27

Rebel without a scene
I don't know a whole lot about this matchup, but you jumped... A lot. Especially back jump. Maybe his nj would beat out her teleport on a read, or his air tele, but mostly I would say try to keep the fight on the ground with his far reaching b21 and kunai cancels, then punish her when she tries to go in the air. But Tanya has some of the best air mobility in the game, so jumping back prolly inst your best bet.
 

Fattius

Noob
I don't know a whole lot about this matchup, but you jumped... A lot. Especially back jump. Maybe his nj would beat out her teleport on a read, or his air tele, but mostly I would say try to keep the fight on the ground with his far reaching b21 and kunai cancels, then punish her when she tries to go in the air. But Tanya has some of the best air mobility in the game, so jumping back prolly inst your best bet.
Keeping the fight on the ground is kinda annoying vs Dragon Tanya. She will just sit on her stick and poke.
 

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
So I only watched one match but in general I can tell you're jumping too much. You've strayed from Takeda's set play before you were forced to and that's a certificate of death for the poor guy. Had you jumped into an air tele to catch her jumps that'd be one thing but keep this MU on the ground.

Wait on her to make mistakes. Your strategy should be to harass her with b2~kunai (overhead, low) b21 ~kunai (OH, OH, Low) and b21 2+4 (OH, OH, OH)

Mix those up and keep her guessing. Eventually she'll try to armor through your kunai. Trust me you WANT that! Stick to your guns until the first time you get knocked on your ass by an armored move. Your guns are good no need to get in close when she's got faster normals. Harass her with whip kunai mix ups until she commits the meter to an armored special. Instead of finishing your pressure with kunai now you want to cancel into db3~dd (quick phase cancel) You'll stop your teleport animation and you'll be able to block. This is where things slow down for you and you'll be able to get your damage. I noticed you would cancel into the spear on block and that is horrible negative and will lose you more matches than you'll be able to count. I had to break that habit myself. If you catch them slipping nice! For the most part though you are a punish character. What I mean by that is slow down. Up your defense and put the opponent in situations where their options are limited and unsafe.

The two specials Tanya will be using to break your kunai consist of a EX split kick(OH) and EX drill kick (Low). Keep in mind that that is at whip range. She can use EX tele towards if you're close enough. The two important ones are the first two I mentioned. Yes it's a 50/50 (OH, Low guess) but I believe you should block low first then let go of the down button. I believe that's called a fuzzy guard but I'm not 100% on terms. The low comes out faster and ends ups being the most damaging because it is comboable into resets and such. DON'T let that one hit. Now once you block them they can kiss some health goodbye cuz we hit hard!

Both of those specials are over -25 on block so I reccomend punishing with f21 ~EX fist flurry combo starter.

To recap, in the sequence of events you either took her health from her using 50/50 mix ups that left her standing or knocked her down, or built meter because she was blocking. You'll use that meter for reversals of your own and combo extensions.

You predicted she would armor through your kunai so you did a teleport cancel or since you knocked her down with the OH, OH, OH, you predicted she would wake up and you blocked Low (EX drill kick) THEN the OH (EX double split kick) by fuzzy guarding in order to block both possible specials. Tanya found herself extremely negative at -25 or more and got hit with a 37%-51% combo and she'll rethinking waking up or armor specials. She's completely on the defensive now when you get back to harassing her with whip and kunai pressure.

This is your gameplan when you're at 65% of the screen with MOST opponents. Harass the opponent with oh low mix ups until they decide to armor out. Block the move after the tele cancel and punish accordingly. PRACTICE THIS FOR HOURS! The execution is key. You WANT to establish a pattern that the opponent will catch on to. It makes switching up you plan doubly effective. :)

Now Tanya is GUNNA get antsy and will make more risky teleport attempts. She'll try standing on her pole. Think of your tools. You have a teleport too. Find out if you teleport on reaction will it catch her. Add to your plan. Back ups for your back ups. Keep in mind people do things in twos a lot on wiff. If she's hopping on that pole a lot thank god you have tornado kick in all variations. EX that move, run cancel into a f21 and end with spear to knock her down into that guessing game. It's up to you to predict their movements and lab out a reaction similar to what I've just described but I hope this is a start.
 

Carmine

PSN: CaptCarmine
Guerilla covered alot of what you should do but in addition you were very linear in your approaches and the moves you used in the neutral game in the 2 games I watched you only b21 and jump back, with a few teleports, his d1, f1 2+4, f12 2+4, b2, 44 for a hard punish are all good strings that you should try to use more in neutral
 

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
Guerilla covered alot of what you should do but in addition you were very linear in your approaches and the moves you used in the neutral game in the 2 games I watched you only b21 and jump back, with a few teleports, his d1, f1 2+4, f12 2+4, b2, 44 for a hard punish are all good strings that you should try to use more in neutral
To expand on what @Carmine just said the tele cancel kunai cancel applies with f1 2+4 and f12 2+4. Personally I wouldn't leave the training room until I was able to consistently do these mix ups on block. A great exercise is to set the bot to auto block and do a b21 kunai cancel. That will hit. Then do a b21 tele cancel. Then do a f12 2+4 tele cancel. You want to keep in mind that at a higher level you should be aware of your opponents meter. In your pressure after the opponent gets hit or blocks the kunai the first time, odds are they're gunna armor through it the next time. Be ready for that and punish accordingly.

Fun tip: Jax's armor reversal, dash fist, can be neutral ducked (hold down don't hold block) and punished after a telecancel. Do that a couple times and Jax WILL respect you on block more. Add more pressure. Hope this stuff helps.
 

jaepeso170

I Have A Plan...Attack
In my honest opinion, I believe that the Lasher variation works wonders against Tanya due to the Whip Strike (DF1 anti air). That halts that jumping dash/teleport quick fast and in a hurry. You will basically force them to play YOUR game as opposed to theirs. Also to piggy back off @GuerillaTactix, cut back on jumping and use Takeda's range....again going back to Lasher, you can control the ground and forcr Tanya to the ait then WHAM DF1 and you will be victorious.
 

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
In my honest opinion, I believe that the Lasher variation works wonders against Tanya due to the Whip Strike (DF1 anti air). That halts that jumping dash/teleport quick fast and in a hurry. You will basically force them to play YOUR game as opposed to theirs. Also to piggy back off @GuerillaTactix, cut back on jumping and use Takeda's range....again going back to Lasher, you can control the ground and forcr Tanya to the ait then WHAM DF1 and you will be victorious.
Honestly sounds like a good strategy. I don't play lasher yet but that sounds like a good strategy. I just need those telecancels. Lol!
 

Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
Tanya pyromancer is a pain.
1,1,2, df2 pretty much has to be poked out of with a low profile move (d3).
If you backdash, she starts the string again and hits you with 1,1,2. If you armor, she hits you out of it. The thing that really sucks I'd of she goes 1,1,2,df2 and she reads that your gonna poke after df2, she can follow up with ex df2.
Sorry, I don't know the names of tanya moves but that's her basic meta in that variation.
The other key thing to note is to try to hit her where she's going to land, not where she currently is on the screen. Kinda how you would fight sadira in ki
 

Pleasa

#NerfMisterChief
Hey guys,

I apologize for the late reply to this thread, I could've sword I replied the same way I did below to most of the comments.... I may have never submitted it or clicked reply though lol I even remember some of my responses lol.. Either way, thank you all for the tips.. :)

I don't know a whole lot about this matchup, but you jumped... A lot. Especially back jump. Maybe his nj would beat out her teleport on a read, or his air tele, but mostly I would say try to keep the fight on the ground with his far reaching b21 and kunai cancels, then punish her when she tries to go in the air. But Tanya has some of the best air mobility in the game, so jumping back prolly inst your best bet.
You are right regarding me jumping way to much. In my head at the time (since this was a new MU) my intent was to scare her from jumping into me with that dissapearing jump. So I was trying to bait it unsuccessfully and later realized that I was jumping throughout both sets and allowing her jumps to take away from my gameplan after watching the vids again.

Keeping the fight on the ground is kinda annoying vs Dragon Tanya. She will just sit on her stick and poke.
Correct which is what I was trying to avoid. I was more trying to play defensively than trying to attack her head on, partially because she was punishing me with the rush and I didn't know her fighting styles (these videos were when she was new and I had not played against her).

So I only watched one match but in general I can tell you're jumping too much. You've strayed from Takeda's set play before you were forced to and that's a certificate of death for the poor guy. Had you jumped into an air tele to catch her jumps that'd be one thing but keep this MU on the ground.

Wait on her to make mistakes. Your strategy should be to harass her with b2~kunai (overhead, low) b21 ~kunai (OH, OH, Low) and b21 2+4 (OH, OH, OH)

Mix those up and keep her guessing. Eventually she'll try to armor through your kunai. Trust me you WANT that! Stick to your guns until the first time you get knocked on your ass by an armored move. Your guns are good no need to get in close when she's got faster normals. Harass her with whip kunai mix ups until she commits the meter to an armored special. Instead of finishing your pressure with kunai now you want to cancel into db3~dd (quick phase cancel) You'll stop your teleport animation and you'll be able to block. This is where things slow down for you and you'll be able to get your damage. I noticed you would cancel into the spear on block and that is horrible negative and will lose you more matches than you'll be able to count. I had to break that habit myself. If you catch them slipping nice! For the most part though you are a punish character. What I mean by that is slow down. Up your defense and put the opponent in situations where their options are limited and unsafe.
I did stray away from the plan more so because I was trying to stop her from that tele jump in she has and second because I was playing mostly back trying to analyse her strategy. But by doing those things, I was not playing towards my typical game plan in any way shape or form.

The two specials Tanya will be using to break your kunai consist of a EX split kick(OH) and EX drill kick (Low). Keep in mind that that is at whip range. She can use EX tele towards if you're close enough. The two important ones are the first two I mentioned. Yes it's a 50/50 (OH, Low guess) but I believe you should block low first then let go of the down button. I believe that's called a fuzzy guard but I'm not 100% on terms. The low comes out faster and ends ups being the most damaging because it is comboable into resets and such. DON'T let that one hit. Now once you block them they can kiss some health goodbye cuz we hit hard!

Both of those specials are over -25 on block so I reccomend punishing with f21 ~EX fist flurry combo starter.

To recap, in the sequence of events you either took her health from her using 50/50 mix ups that left her standing or knocked her down, or built meter because she was blocking. You'll use that meter for reversals of your own and combo extensions.
Great info!

You predicted she would armor through your kunai so you did a teleport cancel or since you knocked her down with the OH, OH, OH, you predicted she would wake up and you blocked Low (EX drill kick) THEN the OH (EX double split kick) by fuzzy guarding in order to block both possible specials. Tanya found herself extremely negative at -25 or more and got hit with a 37%-51% combo and she'll rethinking waking up or armor specials. She's completely on the defensive now when you get back to harassing her with whip and kunai pressure.

This is your gameplan when you're at 65% of the screen with MOST opponents. Harass the opponent with oh low mix ups until they decide to armor out. Block the move after the tele cancel and punish accordingly. PRACTICE THIS FOR HOURS! The execution is key. You WANT to establish a pattern that the opponent will catch on to. It makes switching up you plan doubly effective. :)
I found it difficult to keep her out with that tele jump she has. More so because I wasn't playing aggressive nor using the F12 startup string to keep her grounded. I was trying to analyse her strategy for too long and before I knew it the games were over lol...

Now Tanya is GUNNA get antsy and will make more risky teleport attempts. She'll try standing on her pole. Think of your tools. You have a teleport too. Find out if you teleport on reaction will it catch her. Add to your plan. Back ups for your back ups. Keep in mind people do things in twos a lot on wiff. If she's hopping on that pole a lot thank god you have tornado kick in all variations. EX that move, run cancel into a f21 and end with spear to knock her down into that guessing game. It's up to you to predict their movements and lab out a reaction similar to what I've just described but I hope this is a start.
Guerilla covered alot of what you should do but in addition you were very linear in your approaches and the moves you used in the neutral game in the 2 games I watched you only b21 and jump back, with a few teleports, his d1, f1 2+4, f12 2+4, b2, 44 for a hard punish are all good strings that you should try to use more in neutral
Alot of what I was trying to do in these videos was finding out what strategies work against her. Thats probably why in hind sight they look so bad. I can't even recognize myself playing these matches anymore lol...

To expand on what @Carmine just said the tele cancel kunai cancel applies with f1 2+4 and f12 2+4. Personally I wouldn't leave the training room until I was able to consistently do these mix ups on block. A great exercise is to set the bot to auto block and do a b21 kunai cancel. That will hit. Then do a b21 tele cancel. Then do a f12 2+4 tele cancel. You want to keep in mind that at a higher level you should be aware of your opponents meter. In your pressure after the opponent gets hit or blocks the kunai the first time, odds are they're gunna armor through it the next time. Be ready for that and punish accordingly.

Fun tip: Jax's armor reversal, dash fist, can be neutral ducked (hold down don't hold block) and punished after a telecancel. Do that a couple times and Jax WILL respect you on block more. Add more pressure. Hope this stuff helps.
I'm not sure what was wrong with me that I was not using F12 string during these matches lol. When it's a new MU, I tend to play back and try different things, not worrying about losing a few rounds as long as I could get a feel for the character, but 3 rounds each set later it seemed like I was brain farting lol...

In my honest opinion, I believe that the Lasher variation works wonders against Tanya due to the Whip Strike (DF1 anti air). That halts that jumping dash/teleport quick fast and in a hurry. You will basically force them to play YOUR game as opposed to theirs. Also to piggy back off @GuerillaTactix, cut back on jumping and use Takeda's range....again going back to Lasher, you can control the ground and forcr Tanya to the ait then WHAM DF1 and you will be victorious.
Lasher seems fun but I have yet to dabble too much into it.. But I will :).. Ronin looks awesome too...

Tanya pyromancer is a pain.
1,1,2, df2 pretty much has to be poked out of with a low profile move (d3).
If you backdash, she starts the string again and hits you with 1,1,2. If you armor, she hits you out of it. The thing that really sucks I'd of she goes 1,1,2,df2 and she reads that your gonna poke after df2, she can follow up with ex df2.
Sorry, I don't know the names of tanya moves but that's her basic meta in that variation.
The other key thing to note is to try to hit her where she's going to land, not where she currently is on the screen. Kinda how you would fight sadira in ki
I agree! lol.. Great tips! Thank you![/QUOTE]