Breakthrough - Sub-Zero Still need the patch notes but...

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

you just saying it, or losing to it, does not make it so. Character isn't bad, there is just no point to pick him, hes severely outclassed

Anti airs and punishes for close to 40% one bar, gets a safe jump on 10f (@Gilbagz was that right?) wakeups after each combo whichs set up an unavoidable 50/50, can apply stagger pressure with f11, b12 ridiculously good whiff punishing move... do I need to go on? Am I correct in assuming you didn't know about one or more of these things?

 

[God Confirm]

Anti airs and punishes for close to 40% one bar, gets a safe jump on 10f (@Gilbagz was that right?) wakeups after each combo whichs set up an unavoidable 50/50, can apply stagger pressure with f11, b12 ridiculously good whiff punishing move... do I need to go on? Am I correct in assuming you didn't know about one or more of these things?

Yeah, I didn't know he had a wake up that set up an unavoidable 50/50?

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Yeah, I didn't know he had a wake up that set up an unavoidable 50/50?

As I said depends on speed of the wakeup. After hammer you get the jump in. They either slow armour which he either armour breaks or can block and punish depending (really need to double check with @Gilbagz). If they normal getup you get jip into oh or low, if they delayed getup you can adjust your timing to do the 5050 as they get up. Scary stuff since it's two reads into death.

 

[Lokheit]

Yeah, I didn't know he had a wake up that set up an unavoidable 50/50?

He doesn't, I think he's refering to Cryo finishing his combos with HKDs leading into a JIP (IF the opponent has no meter, very few have slow armors and some of them are faster after the patch) but they can still delay wakeup or backdash so you have to commit to what you think they will do on reaction (which is fair, of course).

Still, he has the tools but has a hard time creating opportunities to use them and that's why he is outclassed at what he does. He's not low tier, but he's not a competitive character either.

However, if patch notes reveals he's now given the "6 frame pokes to everyone" treatment they said in the stream they were implementing and some of his exclusives are faster, with the hit suffered by some of the characters that were capable of eat him alive, it may open the door a bit. We will have to wait and see, but if there are zero changes, then we will hardly see him competing for anything.

 

[UsedForGlue]

lol

lol

 

[UsedForGlue]

Seriously underwhelmed by Patch for Sub Zero.

It's like they gloss over every single problem he has, and of all the "buffs" they give him, they completely miss the point, but I guess they are thinking, a buff is a buff.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Also why does 111 in cryo have a gap?

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Anti airs and punishes for close to 40% one bar, gets a safe jump on 10f (@Gilbagz was that right?) wakeups after each combo whichs set up an unavoidable 50/50, can apply stagger pressure with f11, b12 ridiculously good whiff punishing move... do I need to go on? Am I correct in assuming you didn't know about one or more of these things?

Literally none of that changes the fact that Grandmaster is infinitely better for competitive play and will always be used instead.

 

[God Confirm]

Cryo to me is just a character who by all means has the tools to win a tournament by all means, but there very little reason to win it with him instead of Reptile or even Mileena

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Cryo needs another freeze move, sub zero without 2 freezing moves is not subzero. Even cyber subzero has 3 freezing moves with multiple variants if those moves.

They should give him one of the following options.

1. Ice puddle
2. Ice shower
3. Icy counter with tombstone teleport (MKvsDC moveset).

 

[RM Ree]

If UB can meterless break 25% off a b12 punish or after a parry, he's fine. The new aura slide is going to open up a lot of possibilities for this variation, where having aura active and a bar demands respect in a lot of situations. Pressuring him on wake up could result in aura frost bomb and sneezing in the neutral could result in aura icy slide.

At the very least we know that now, we should have aura on more often than not.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Literally none of that changes the fact that Grandmaster is infinitely better for competitive play and will always be used instead.

Don't know why I waste my time.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

UB and CM have been suffering for so long because they keep nerfing GM by changing his universal moveset, just nerf GM, not sub zero

 

[boba_buster]

UB and CM have been suffering for so long because they keep nerfing GM by changing his universal moveset, just nerf GM, not sub zero

What universal moves did they nerf?

 

[RM Ree]

UB and CM have been suffering for so long because they keep nerfing GM by changing his universal moveset, just nerf GM, not sub zero

Lol was this a Liu Kang joke?

 

[Gilbagz]

As I said depends on speed of the wakeup. After hammer you get the jump in. They either slow armour which he either armour breaks or can block and punish depending (really need to double check with @Gilbagz). If they normal getup you get jip into oh or low, if they delayed getup you can adjust your timing to do the 5050 as they get up. Scary stuff since it's two reads into death.

To break down everything briefly
Its a 12f safe jump
Wake ups need to be 11f and faster to beat the safe jump to win
He cant use the same option against every character, but you can group characters together
If you cant safe jump, you can usually safe check from max range
If you have no safe check option, generally the wake up has low reward so the risk reward is heavily skewed in your favour
He has no guaranteed 5050 after it unless they have no bar. Otherwise you have to play the standard wake up baiting game. Its just we get the added bonus of a consistently timed oki scenario in which we can drill out options. Delayed wake up and backdash do escape, but i do have an os which covers at least two out of three options. Delayed wake up is annoying, but because we use a jump in safe jump, it lets us os our options. I'll eventually make a thread outlining how this os works.

Regardless yeah it isnt a guaranteed 5050, its just a potential mix up in which the risk reward is heavily in cryos favour. Guess wrong and it leads to the exact same scenario.

In the corner the safe jump gets nerfed and buffed and the same time. Characters with poor armour have to hold the mix up always. And you lose the option of delayed wake up and back dash. The cross over mix up completely mitigates certain characters wake ups and forces you to guess 5050 every time. The issue with this is, you will lose the corner whether you guess right or wrong if they their optimal escapes unless you spend two bars.

I'll eventually get around to making a cryo guide. It'll probably get shunned for up playing. But this character is very good as is. He's not oppressive mix ups and neutral control like gm. But he rewards read based gameplay and strong fundamentals with ridiculous burst damage into a strong mix up game.

 

[Lokheit]

Delayed wake up and backdash do escape, but i do have an os which covers at least two out of three options. Delayed wake up is annoying, but because we use a jump in safe jump, it lets us os our options. I'll eventually make a thread outlining how this os works.

You mean input B12 while holding back so if they backdash the JIP misses but the game registers the B2?

 

[Gilbagz]

You mean input B12 while holding back so if they backdash the JIP misses but the game registers the B2?

Yeah ita based around that concept
But thats not the one i'm looking at it

You can os a 5050 while still chasing the back dash
To speak about it briefly
You do ji2 the either
B3 f42 b1+3
B2 f42 1+3
If you time it right on block you get the 5050, on whiff due to delayed wake up or backdash you get the auto chase down
Its hard to time cos you get slide, but it is possible without using alternate controls
With alternare controls its very easy

The main one i use though as my safe check is ji2 f1 f42 and then confirm the grab ender

You need to almost plink the buttons to get the os to worn

 

[Gilbagz]

You mean input B12 while holding back so if they backdash the JIP misses but the game registers the B2?

you can also os into 5050 as well if they delay
But block or whiff that shouldnt really matter
You can confirm the delay usually
Other wise you can f1 b2 to os the stagger string into 5050 and such
Just gotta practice the timings

 

[Lokheit]

Yeah that works too, though the timing for the 50/50 to work is a bit tight (at least if you want to hit before they can block after the backdash without messing the B2 release in case they don't backdash) and the reward of B3Slide isn't too high. The B12/B2 os is blockable too but there are zero timing issues as it's the game itself doing the OS for you (you can even B12xxSpecial and if they backdash they get the B2) but you can't become too predictable with it. Another option safer than F1 check is checking with a F4 and on backdash pressing F4 again into Cold Blooded, this one is actually very easy to read and execute.

Also, adding on a previous point, if the opponent has meter, I find it better to slight step back into raw regular hammer over the JIP into Block. Most specials won't have enough reach (the slight step back makes a lot of amored moves whiff but they hit you if you don't do that step) and even if armored they eat 12 damage. It's even a good trade against some armored advancing specials as their damage is lower (unless they lead into full combo, don't use this strategy against someone that can armor advance into full combo) and the distance is better for Cryo's overal game than intentionally jumping into close distance. Also there are many armored moves that give you enough time to whiff punish after your hammer hit so it's 12 + full combo damage and safe if they delay/backdash/block.

Anyway, as previously said, all of these tools are great, but the main problem is Cryo has a hard time getting into that point while other characters that are have tools as good as his get a lot of dirt outclassing him. Just one simple thing to make others respect you and Cryo will be perfect. As of right now, they don't need to commit to risky strategies.

Also why does 111 in cryo have a gap?

It doesn't, unless you're whiffing the second hit, it can be armor reversed. In fact 11 has such a good block cancel that it jails into regular burst (23 frames vs the 21 frames of the third hit of 111).

 

[boba_buster]

So did anyone download the patch yet? Any other changes? Pokes etc. clone toss?

 

[Yak]

Gm got better tbh

 

[Sand-man]

Nerf the clone prossimity's of GM

 

[Jaku2011]

With aura up he can get 33% off b2 run f42 ex slide njp 123 slide
In the corner b2 b2 123 ex slide njp 123 slide 40%